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Topic: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery (Read 1112 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #25
Ron, I don't think your inverter will work - our fridge draws at least 500W. I use one of 850W from Harbor Freight. The fridge does switch to gas with the engine off - the oem fridge board had a 20 sec delay, enough time to launch to the back of the coach to turn the fridge off. Our current Dinosaur board has no delay, so I switch before turning off the engine. Just have to remember to turn it back on. Note the big issue is auto-switching the fridge socket between shorepower/gen and the inverter. After a failed homemade relay fiasco that smoked the first inverter, I installed another transfer switch identical to the gen transfer switch to do the job, inverter-priority. In a couple years use, the system has worked flawlessly.

After the battery conversion, I installed a 2200W sine wave inverter to allow powering the nuker and a hair dryer as needed for brief periods. A 30-sec run to warm coffee draws 157A and uses 1.1AH of charge. For that I use a manual transfer switch break-before-make to switch the 30A breaker. With the inverter enabled, I turn off the converter and switch the fridge to gas only. For smaller jobs I have a 300W sine wave inverter that plugs in as needed.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #26
   I plan to run the refrigerator on a small 400W inverter, powered behind the side access panel by the wire LD supplies (8 ga) to that area from the house battery.  It would be enabled by that same signal.  How do you keep the 'fridge from trying to light the gas flame when it loses 120 VAC from the inverter?  Seems like that would defeat the purpose when filling at a gas station.  I was going to turn off all 12v to the fridge during fueling to keep it idle.  RonB.

The way you solve that is to put a relay controlled by the alternator output line in the line to the AC heater. When the alternator output line goes to 0 volts the relay opens up and the high 12 volt current to the inverter drops to the standby current. The refrigerator still thinks it is running on AC and does not switch to propane. The tough part is getting the alternator output line to the added relay in the fridge compartment.

I have a 3-way fridge and do that with the 12 volt power to the 12 volt heater. Works very well for gas stops. The alternator output line was added when the unit was built.
Harry 2006RB

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #27
[quote author=Steve link= 8)
For the time being, I will play wait-and-see on adding any of these aftermarket devices, with the possible option of simply tripping the 100A breaker in the battery box to eliminate alternator charging. Two Battleborn BBGC2 mounted in the existing battery tray.
[/quote]

Have you tried discharging the battery and then charging it with the alternator only, measuring the current flow at the same time?

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #28

Have you tried discharging the battery and then charging it with the alternator only, measuring the current flow at the same time?

Larry


Nope. Discharging 200 AH requires more time than I have been able to devote to being in the rig yet. I DO know that with about 95% charge that I saw over 50A from the alternator.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #29
That relay that Lazy Daze uses to connect the chassis battery to the house batteries so the alternator can charge both is a White Rodgers 586-108111.  Rev A, 15 volt coil.  Rated for 200A continuous, 600A inrush.   https://www.supplyhouse.com/White-Rodgers-586-108111-Solenoid-SPNO-15-VDC-Isolated-Coil-Normally-Open-Continuous-Contact-Rating-200-Amps-Inrush-600-Amps?gclid=Cj0KCQiA0eOPBhCGARIsAFIwTs4gQws6LzxHDOujEFj9i1F0ccfuzbDUgO1hi70607__L02wturKK7kaAju_EALw_wcB
    I notice that they want it mounted vertically, and it lives in the engine compartment.  It could also be used as an emergency start relay to connect the house battery bank to the chassis battery to start the engine. A short duration push button to connect and start.   I inherited this one from Kent when he had his coach upgraded to LiF by AM Solar.
   You could call Todd Miller at LD to find out where they get the signal to activate it.     RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #30
This tech talk is mind numbing for the beginner I am. I was not told at LD when they installed a couple of AGMs how to care for them. Repeatedly draining them has rendered them unable to hold a charge for long. Purchased two Amperetime 12v 100 Ah and was going to just drop them in. Not so fast. It may or may not damage the '05 E450's alternator,  I may or may not need a DC to DC charger which may or may not overheat, the onan generator may or may not fully charge them, and the 220 watts of solar panels may or may not be enough to charge them either and the whole godamn thing might or might not
 burst into flames if I dont install the proper isolating diode flowing through a double ought cable that y's to all the components simultaneously during low voltage charging but not high voltage charging which requires a completely different fix. WTF?  Does anyone have simple solutions for the simple minded?

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #31
This tech talk is mind numbing for the beginner I am. I was not told at LD when they installed a couple of AGMs how to care for them. Repeatedly draining them has rendered them unable to hold a charge for long. Purchased two Amperetime 12v 100 Ah and was going to just drop them in. Not so fast. It may or may not damage the '05 E450's alternator,  I may or may not need a DC to DC charger which may or may not overheat, the onan generator may or may not fully charge them, and the 220 watts of solar panels may or may not be enough to charge them either and the whole godamn thing might or might not
 burst into flames if I dont install the proper isolating diode flowing through a double ought cable that y's to all the components simultaneously during low voltage charging but not high voltage charging which requires a completely different fix. WTF?  Does anyone have simple solutions for the simple minded?
We don't have simple solutions for folks who ask questions on this forum in an uncivil manner. If you would like to chill out for a while, count to ten and rephrase your question, someone will be glad to help you.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #32
The technical discussions here are between Lazy Daze enthusiasts who are working to understand, and help others understand, the technical complexity themselves, because they are interested, or because they can spend their time in order to save money.

Would engaging a shop that handles all of the technical complexity be a solution? I hear good things about AM Solar, and there must be other shops around the country skilled in integrating batteries, chargers, etc. to craft an effective solution.

2013 27’ Mid-Bath
2005 Honda CR-V

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #33
Annp,

I'm tend to be as guilty as anyone of overthinking this stuff, so let's simplify things.

Without any DC-DC converter or relay or diode, or anything linking the chassis and coach systems:

A) You will not harm your alternator as it will remain isolated from the coach.

B) Your coach batteries will eventually charge via either the solar or the coach generator.  And Lithium batteries don't require a full charge every cycle as lead batteries do, just keep them above 20% or so.

C) You'll have at least one fewer electrical device to burst into flames, or fail in any manner.

D) You've saved some money and simplified the system.

If you later decide you need the boost from your alternator, you can always add that subsystem later once you feel better informed and have determined that it's actually needed.

I think you're on the right path going with solar and the LiFePO4 batteries.  Despite what we paid over six years ago for our setup, it's possibly the best investment we've made on our LD and I have a feeling you'll eventually feel the same way.

Steve
2015 TK

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #34
Annp,
I'm tend to be as guilty as anyone of overthinking this stuff, so let's simplify things.
Without any DC-DC converter or relay or diode, or anything linking the chassis and coach systems:
A) You will not harm your alternator as it will remain isolated from the coach.
B) Your coach batteries will eventually charge via either the solar or the coach generator.  And Lithium batteries don't require a full charge every cycle as lead batteries do, just keep them above 20% or so.
C) You'll have at least one fewer electrical device to burst into flames, or fail in any manner.
D) You've saved some money and simplified the system.

If you later decide you need the boost from your alternator, you can always add that subsystem later once you feel better informed and have determined that it's actually needed.

I think you're on the right path going with solar and the LiFePO4 batteries.  Despite what we paid over six years ago for our setup, it's possibly the best investment we've made on our LD and I have a feeling you'll eventually feel the same way.
Steve

Agreed.

May as well keep the original batteries and put the lithiums inside where they belong. All you need is a marine battery switch to choose whether you power the coach from lithium or FLA. This is mentioned in a previous post.

This adds 210 AH to total power available and redundancy.

Mine has more than that: FLA charged from lithium, charging lithium from 120 amps of AC charger rather than converter. Solar charges whichever battery bank is powering the coach. These enhancements are not necessary.

When I had 200AH of lithium I used lithium for entertainment (satellite TV, DVD, now Starlink) and FLA for the furnace. (night)
Harry 2006RB

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #35

Ann, I like Steve's advice: disconnect the alternator charging line and just use your solar panels and (when necessary) generator to charge the new batteries. That will eliminate a lot of your worries.

A couple of things to keep in mind. First, lithium batteries don't like temperature extremes. They'll be damaged if charged at temperatures below 32° F (0 ° C). Ampere Time's built-in circuitry protects the battery against "overcharge, over-discharge, overcurrent, and short circuit," but they don't say anything about preventing damage from charging when freezing or colder. So if you're going to mount these in an outside battery compartment (you didn't say what model/floorplan you have), you need to be very conscious of that.

You can do a couple of things to reduce the risk. Since lithium batteries don't need venting, you can block the vents on that external battery compartment door to keep out cold air. Do it with an insulating material such as Reflectix. And consider cutting an opening in the inner wall of that compartment, so that in cold weather, some of the warmth of the interior will get through.

Moving the lithium batteries indoors, as Harry suggested, would be even better from a temperature standpoint... but that's a major modification that you may not want to undertake. And running dual sets of batteries as he does is not simple (as I believe he recently commented elsewhere).

Second, if your '05 Lazy Daze has the original converter/charger, that's not the best (or fastest) way to charge lithium batteries. You may want to consider having it replaced with a more "intelligent" converter from Progressive Dynamics. You can find recommendations for which model is best elsewhere in these discussion threads. It will be kinder to your batteries, and will also charge them faster, meaning less generator run time.

One last thing: it's not hard to damage batteries if you don't have a good idea of their state of charge, and the multicolored LEDs that Lazy Daze provided in your '05 are about as useful as a gas gauge that only reads FULL or EMPTY. I'd strongly recommend adding a good battery monitor such as Victron's BMV-712. It will give you an accurate reading of the battery's level, so that you can know when you're getting dangerously low.

This electrical stuff can sound complicated and intimidating. Many of us are still figuring it out in our own ways. If you prefer not to deal with it on your own, AM Solar up in Oregon has a good reputation, as Keith mentioned.

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #36
We don't have simple solutions for folks who ask questions on this forum in an uncivil manner. If you would like to chill out for a while, count to ten and rephrase your question, someone will be glad to help you.

Chris

ANNP: Sorry for the harsh response. Obviously I did not feel your frustration. We try to approach problems and frustrations here on LDOF with simple questions, unladed with cursing. I'm hopeful our members can help you with your issues.

Chris 




Formerly: 2002 30' IB

 
Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #37
This tech talk is mind numbing for the beginner I am. I was not told at LD when they installed a couple of AGMs how to care for them. Repeatedly draining them has rendered them unable to hold a charge for long. Purchased two Amperetime 12v 100 Ah and was going to just drop them in. Not so fast. It may or may not damage the '05 E450's alternator,  I may or may not need a DC to DC charger which may or may not overheat, the onan generator may or may not fully charge them, and the 220 watts of solar panels may or may not be enough to charge them either and the whole godamn thing might or might not
 burst into flames if I dont install the proper isolating diode flowing through a double ought cable that y's to all the components simultaneously during low voltage charging but not high voltage charging which requires a completely different fix. WTF?  Does anyone have simple solutions for the simple minded?

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #38
This tech talk is mind numbing for the beginner I am. I was not told at LD when they installed a couple of AGMs how to care for them. Repeatedly draining them has rendered them unable to hold a charge for long. Purchased two Amperetime 12v 100 Ah and was going to just drop them in. Not so fast. It may or may not damage the '05 E450's alternator,  I may or may not need a DC to DC charger which may or may not overheat, the onan generator may or may not fully charge them, and the 220 watts of solar panels may or may not be enough to charge them either and the whole godamn thing might or might not
 burst into flames if I dont install the proper isolating diode flowing through a double ought cable that y's to all the components simultaneously during low voltage charging but not high voltage charging which requires a completely different fix. WTF?  Does anyone have simple solutions for the simple minded?

To put it bluntly you didn’t have the tools or knowledge to manage your AGMs properly. You certainly don’t have the tools or knowledge to manage lithiums properly.

My suggestion is to put them in the back room, install two flooded lead acid batteries and a shunt type battery monitor (Bogart Trimetric or Victron) and learn how to use it.

If that doesn’t work for you then hire a shop like AM solar to install your lithiums and battery monitor and explain how to use it.
Harry 2006RB

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #39
Ann has or had a 2005 MB, but before these posts here her last post on the group was 9 years ago. Repeating identical vulgar posts twice in the same thread has to be a hacked user id...

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #40
No, the user id was not hacked, I'm Ann's husband Rod and i have apologized for not controlling my frustration. The double posting was due to my incompetence. I wasn't sure if it had posted. Sorry if anybodys feathers got ruffled but exactly how "vulgar" was it?  Not terribly in my opinion so perhaps the offended should loosen the grip on their pearls.
In the meantime it looks like my two choices are install the batteries and disconnect the alternator from the coach and rely on solar and genset to charge or install new components both in the truck and coach. The solar installation by AM Solar is first class and having a shop do the latter choice is our preference. There must be a reputable shop here in SoCal. Any reccomendations?

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #41
"you didn’t have the tools or knowledge to manage your AGMs properly"

True. But as Rod pointed out, Lazy Daze didn't give them either the tools (a useful battery monitor) or the knowledge. I don't know what the factory is installing nowadays, but back in 2005 the three "idiot lights" provided for battery status were nowhere near adequate for managing batteries of any kind.

I remember vividly how extremely frustrated I was in the early days with Gertie, with nothing to go on but those colored lights and a voltmeter. I had more than 500 watts of solar panels and four group 27 batteries, yet I kept running out of power... and I couldn't figure out why! It was driving me crazy.

It wasn't until I installed an amp-counting battery monitor (Xantrex XBM, an older unit similar to the Victron BMV series) that I began to get a handle on managing my 12 V power. So I can sympathize with Rod and Ann's frustration.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #42
Hi Rod; Generally speaking you can just 'drop in' the Ampere LiF batteries without any other modifications.  It won't catch on fire or burn up your alternator.   That video that Victron uses to scare you not to hook up directly to an alternator, isn't representative of automotive alternators. It should work fine, but won't be optimum.  The small details we've been discussing are to get better power delivery and charging, to make the expense of the batteries pay off better.
    As stated previously the big hazard is pushing power into the batteries if they are below 32 degrees. That will damage them permanently. The converter may not have a high enough voltage output to charge the batteries very well.  Likewise the solar.  The converter and solar are optimized for lead acid. Shore power and generator go through the converter. It also is oriented to lead acid. It won't hurt anything, but it may not work very well.
    My first step was to install a newer converter that by jumper could also run LiF batteries.  The R3000i solar controller can be manually re-programmed to output higher voltages to fit the LiF profile.
    With lead acid, my alternator routinely provided 14.6v to 14.8 volts (my scan gauge display). That should provide enough voltage to recharge the LiF battery. By using your installed #4 gauge wiring, it may provide enough voltage drop to limit current from being excessive. My '99 Ford E350 had a 100 A breaker in the charge line. If it opens for your application (and needs resetting) then you might be overstressing the alternator. 
       Andy is correct. You need to have a way to monitor the battery's charge status.  The built in BMS may shut the battery(s) down when it is fully charged.  That protects the battery, but doesn't provide power to the coach either. When it is nearly discharged the BMS will turn the LiF off, again to protect itself.  But it may be at some un-predictable time, if you aren't expecting that to happen.  LiF's don't change output voltage much as they deplete, normally a good thing. But it makes it hard to track the charge amount by monitoring the output voltage.
    Installing a meter shunt and having a meter to show your charge status, will make it easier to anticipate how your new batteries are behaving.  That also is a good thing for lead acid batteries and Lazy Daze should have provided that. It would have helped manage the AGM's better then.      RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #43

This looks to be a good basic meter that could be used to monitor your batteries.  Amazon.com: Renogy 500A Battery Monitor, High and Low Voltage Programmable...
   The price is reasonable and will tell you what is going on with your new batteries.      RonB

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #44
Looks like a less expensive alternative to the Victron BMV series battery monitors that many of us use. If anybody buys one of these, please let the group know how you like it.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Converting to a 12V 200AH Lithium battery
Reply #45
The beauty of the Renergy is its surface-mounted monitor, not requiring drilling a 2" diameter hole in a wall.
This makes the installation so much easier than the Victron and other battery monitors.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze