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Topic: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on (Read 527 times) previous topic - next topic
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Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
I have a 2010 RB that I'm going to have Bigfoot levelers installed on at the Quadra factory. There is an option for weld-on or bolt-on. Does anyone have an opinion on either of these installation types? I haven't been able to find anything regarding this on my forum searches.
2010 Rear Bath
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #1 –
I have HWH levelers and not Bigfoots.  They have a mounting plate welded to the vehicle frame and then the jack is bolted to the mounting plate.

The bolts have been useful, as they allow me to remove the jacks and send them off to the factory for service.  I've only done it a couple of times, but I can imagine that having the jacks welded to the coach would have made the process much more complicated.

So - future repairs might be something to consider.

Rich
2003 MB
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #2 –
Quote from: rich  - 
I have HWH levelers and not Bigfoots.  They have a mounting plate welded to the vehicle frame and then the jack is bolted to the mounting plate.

The bolts have been useful, as they allow me to remove the jacks and send them off to the factory for service.  I've only done it a couple of times, but I can imagine that having the jacks welded to the coach would have made the process much more complicated.
So - future repairs might be something to consider.

Every hydraulic leveler cylinder I have seen has been bolted to brackets that are either bolted or welded to the frame, allowing the cylinders to be replaced when they eventually wear out. I believe it is the brackets the OP is referring to.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #3 –
So 21 years ago when I had pieces of channel welded on to my frame to mount the Kwikee jacks; that was a big mistake. The #@%&K that welded the brackets weakened the frame at those points. The installation place went bankrupt the next week. The frame is tempered by Ford as one piece. You can't do a hot weld that penetrates the metal without softening the metal and generating a weak spot.  My welder friend, (he, his father and 4 brothers were and still are, professional welders/inspectors, with misc. certifications) explained this to me.  A cold weld is permissible, and parts of the frame can be welded on at the web part that isn't directly under frame stress.
   When possible, use the Ford provided holes that are already in the frame. They know that people will buy levelers, and the leveler companies know the location of these holes.   A friend in the LD Caravan club worked part time at an RV place near him, and saw others that he worked with, install HWH and another brand(?)  with bolt on brackets.  I'm hoping they used good grade bolts, Loktite, and lock washers.
    If you have brackets welded, ask to see the welder's certification, business license and get copies. As Larry stated, bolt on brackets, rams bolted to that.
    Also early on I managed to pop two of the 4 hardened rivets holding on the front driver side rear leaf spring mount bracket to the frame. Ford towed it in and 'fixed' it by bending the hardened bracket back and bolting it on to replace the two rivets that had disappeared. I then drove up to my welder friends place and he welded all of my brackets in place. Cold tack welds. I was at least hoping for a new bracket and replacement of the two very stressed rivets that remained from Ford. I have that 'repair' well documented.  They sent a flat bed tow truck to my house suitable for a 45' big rig, and made me drive up onto it. All I could see was sky out of the windshield and drivers window. No guidance that the tires weren't going off track....    RonB

    edit: Now that my friend has retired and moved to Florida, he doesn't maintain his certifications. They are too expensive, specific to the state, and he has sold his extensive, expensive welding truck and machine.  But he has considered buying a 'good' welder for himself and weld for friends and on some 'stuff' for himself.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #4 –
Ron, Were those rivets referred to as “Huck Rivets”?
My brother’s Ford truck had them loosen up and had to be replaced.
Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #5 –
Hi Harold; I looked up 'Huck' rivets right now and they seem to be a heavy duty version of a pop rivet.  The Rivets I had come apart and the two remaining looked to be ordinary 'hot' rivets. They and the bracket are tempered with the frame as one piece. Must be interesting to witness. ( I wonder how Lazy daze lengthens the frame for the 31'.)   The cross section of the broken two bolts remaining in the bracket were a rough crystallized look, about 3/8 - 7/16" diameter. Not the pulled out look that soft steel or case hardened would show after a tensile strength tester test.  I did a quick 'U' turn near an intersection, resulting in a loud !! Bang. couldn't see the damage until later when I tried to pull out my dump hose, and it was crushed by the bent bracket.  Right before New Years 2000-2001.
   Your brother's truck description of 'Huck Rivets' might fit what I have, but fit the description (online) better of a manufactured bolt and thread device that might be used now. I've seen that used for things attached to suspension and steering brackets.  In 2000 I still had film cameras with negatives. (negatives in the safe deposit box)
   Here is a YouTube of 'Huck' bolts/rivets:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt89WjjQnYQ    RonB
 
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
 
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #6 –
"I wonder how Lazy daze lengthens the frame for the 31'."
---
Lazy Daze farms out the cut and splice job to to a local fabricator to lengthen the stock 176" E450 chassis to 211" for the 31'. (I don't know which shop does the extension.)
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #7 –
Quote from: Joan  - 
"I wonder how Lazy daze lengthens the frame for the 31'."
---
Lazy Daze farms out the cut and splice job to a local fabricator to lengthen the stock 176" E450 chassis to 211" for the 31'. (I don't know which shop does the extension.)

And I had visions of heating the frame so it's red hot and then stretching it to the desired length.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #8 –
Had a friend years ago whose LD was equipped with Kwilee levelers. Down in Mexico she ran over a tope (cannonballs, imbedded into the road and used as speed bumps) too fast and hit one of the jacks, partially ripping the cylinder's bracket off the frame. It was a bad weld and had barely penetrated into the frame. A welding instructor or inspector would give it a fail.
She had me slice it and the remaining brackets off, lucky that the frame had not been badly damaged.
A high-quality weld would have bent the frame. The results with bolts wouldn't be much different.

LDs were never designed for levelers and have minimal clearance, resulting in low hanging rams and limited lifting ability.
A design upgrade would be to build in space where longer hydraulic rams (cylinders) could be vertically mounted.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #9 –
Hi Larry. While not as elegant, I just bought two scissor jacks (Amazon) for a friends (new to him) toy hauler. A whole $90 for 7500# and 24" capability. I suspect each jack is good for half of that.    Still it is rare to need to lift a wheel off the ground, and there is enough room under the back to put two jacks in, mostly to steady the vehicle when people are walking around inside, or the wind is blowing. A power drill puts the jack down fast, (and back up) but the crank handle is needed to lift it. 24" lift or a few $$ more for 30"
   Not so easy to put those in front, although I could put them near where my non functioning Kwikee jacks are now. The scissor jacks are pretty light too. 12# each for 2@$100, 30" lift and 5" high retracted.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #10 –
Ken, I had BigFoot jacks added to my 2010 RB just after picking it up from the LD factory and the mounting plates were welded to the frame. In the following ten years with the coach I had no problems with the system and repeated the addition of Bigfoot jacks to our new 2021 RB. We did get the automatic one pump system on both coaches. We wouldn’t be without them for the convenience of setting up at a campsite particularly in bad weather.
2010 RB "Monty"  & currently: 2021 RB "Villa Verde"
2004 Born Free 26'
1998 Beaver Patriot 33'
1992 Barth Breakaway 28'
1982 Fleetwood Jamboree 23'
1982 Dolphin/Toyota 22'
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #11 –
Thank you everyone for your time and valuable input. At this point my plan is to have the brackets bolted on if it will work with existing holes in the frame, otherwise they will be welded.

Thanks Larry for reminding me about the clearance issue. I'll have to take a closer look at the potholes developing in my gravel driveway.

Michael
2010 Rear Bath
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #12 –
I just finished installation of the Bigfoot platinum system on a 2010 MB.  As with some of the above commenters I did not want to weld on the frame so I purchased the bolt on kits.  The two front cylinders are mounted on bolt-in frame adapters which worked well for the front install.  The two rear cylinders required drilling the frame to use the provided mounting brackets.  Since I'm over 50 years past my teens I didn't really want to drill the frame so I came up with a different game plan.
It turns out that there are three usable existing holes on the vertical frame surface at the very rear where the frame cross bar boxes the frame at the end.  I ended up cutting one of the provided "C" brackets in half  (now essentially an "L" angle bracket) and used this to tie the lower end of the cylinder to the frame.  This piece provides both shear force support for the cylinder and supports the lower end of the cylinder for lateral forces by locating two bolts through the L bracket to existing holes in the frame lower rail horizontal surface.. The forward upper rear bolt for the cylinder went through rather large frame drill openings so I fabricated 1/4" steel plates to span the holes for the attaching bolts.  Since the frame cross bar is riveted at the corner I fab'd additional 1/4" plates to act as shims so the L bracket bolted to the lower frame surface cleared the rivet heads.  All the necessary cutting, drilling and fab work was done in my garage on a drill press and cutoff saw which made the job doable and fairly easy. 

All in all it was a pretty easy install.  I ended up swapping the front and rear cylinders to get the amount of lift I wanted ( 6.5 to 7 inches ground clearance).  I weighed everything when received at 165 lbs.  Since I didn't use most of the supplied brackets a re-weigh of the excess material brought the installed weight down to 130 pounds + about 5 lbs of fluid in the reservoir tank.  The supplied harness was way, way too long so I ended up reworking it to a custom fit.  The supplied hoses were likewise too long and I didn't have the capability to shorten so the excess is coiled up and secured atop cross members forward of the fuel tank.  The 80 amp breaker supplied with the system is an auto reset type which I changed out to a non-resetting type with a manual trip. I didn't want a recycling breaker in the event there was a real short in the system.  I also modified the safety feature that only allows operation of the system with the ignition OFF.  I changed this to only allowing the system to operate if the vehicle is in park regardless of the ignition status.  My intent here is to be able to select to run the engine to supply alternator current when the jacks are in operation as they are a pretty large current drain.  I mounted a weatherproof SPDT microswitch on a fab'd bracket on the transmission so the gear selector activates / deactivates it.  The only other change I made was getting rid of the lockwashers and original nuts on the jack bolts and replacing them with hardened steel washers and captive grade 8 nuts ( not shown in the photos).
I did this because when torquing the mounting bolts to the recommended torque (70 lb-ft) the bolts felt "mushy" due to the distortion of the lockwashers over the slotted holes in the cylinder mounting plates.  I figured it was only a matter of time before that system let go and didn't want to hear the clunking noise of a cylinder dragging under the RV at 60 mph. 
I mounted the control panel in the center top cavity in the drink / junk holder between the cab seats.  The harness is run up to the top of the frame over the engine and through a sealed grommet at the top center.  This runs down to a 12 pin Molex connector which allow removal of the drink / junk holder and engine cover if needed.  The only thing left is to fab a plate in the holder for the control panel - should be pretty easy.

Happy RV'ing,
Chuck


  
2010 Mid Bath
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #13 –
It's always interesting to see complex DIY installations, it looks good. It's very satisfying to stand back and admire a job well done. I agree that drilling the frame would be a very difficult job, best to be avoided. The ability to modify and fabricate the mounts is a plus.
Wish that LD would design a floorplan that had empty space above the logical places to mount the cylinders, allowing longer cylinders and increased ground clearance, it's one disadvantage to the low profile roofline. We can deal with it.

Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #14 –
Wow Chuck, a very clean and professional looking installation.  I think the Bigfoot by Quadra is the way I would go, and I would do it myself. I've had nothing but problems with the Kwikee system which is now non-repairable with no electronic parts available.   RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #15 –
I am also concerned about the ground clearance. Time will tell if this is a problem.  I can move them up somewhat, but I *think* I'm OK with the 7" clearance  I really wanted to use the HWH kickdown system as I had it on an older 1985 Pace Arrow and it really worked well.  Just too complex (and costly) to install in my driveway; also the weight was a concern.  All in all I felt the Bigfoot was the best compromise for the LD.
2010 Mid Bath
Re: Bigfoot Levelers: Weld-on vs Bolt-on
Reply #16 –
Quote from: Mike Coachman  - 
Ken, I had BigFoot jacks added to my 2010 RB just after picking it up from the LD factory and the mounting plates were welded to the frame. In the following ten years with the coach I had no problems with the system and repeated the addition of Bigfoot jacks to our new 2021 RB. We did get the automatic one pump system on both coaches. We wouldn’t be without them for the convenience of setting up at a campsite particularly in bad weather.
Would you be willing to share where you had your Bigfoot jacks installed, Mike?
Dale from Downey
Dale from Downey 27’ 2012 RB,”Casa Verde”, 2000 Jeep Wrangler. Formerly1991 RB & 1990 Jeep Wrangler.