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Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
HI Everyone,

I have a 2007 MB, and it has two Interstate 6V batteries as well as two 100W solar panels.  I don't know how old the batteries are, but they came with the unit when we bought it used 5 years ago.  The batteries have been bulging for a couple years now, and the lights are getting within a couple hours).  I'm thinking that it's time to get some new ones.

I'm willing to spend the extra $$$ for AGMs to not have to ever worry that I've let the battery fluid levels drop too far between refills, which undoubtedly will happen often.  I think I would like to get two Lifeline GPL-4CT batteries as the replacement, which appear to be the right size for my LD's sliding tray configuration.  Aside from pulling the solar panel fuse, turning the disconnect switch to the "disconnect" position, and making sure the electrical connections match what I have now, do I need to change any of the solar controller settings (which I have no clue of how to do)?  I've include a picture of my solar controller to this post as well.

Thank you, in advance, for any tips or suggestions!

Eric
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #1 –
Do you have a printed manual for the HPV-22?  I can't find one online.

You might (should I think) have some dip switch adjustments that will let you set the charge voltage to whatever is specified by the AGM battery manufacturer.

Here are the settings for a different Heliotrope controller:
Heliotrope PV RV-45D Operation Manual (Page 3 of 6) | ManualsLib

3rd paragraph here for more on the switches and how to access:
The Lazy Daze Companion: HPV-22/HPV-22B Solar Controllers

Rich
2003 MB
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #2 –
Hi Rich and others,

Thanks for suggesting that I look for the manual of my solar controller.  Yes, in fact, I do have a printed manual.  In it, it says "the HPV-22 is factory set at 14.3 +/- 0.1 volts, and no adjustment is needed for flooded lead-acid batteries.  For AGM batteries, you may wish to dial this down to 14.1 or 14.2 volts."  Given the words "you may wish", and the small voltage difference between the factory setting and the 14.1-14.2 range suggested for AGM batteries, plus not understanding the manual's directions for "Adjusting the MPPT Potentiometer", I'm very inclined to leave the settings as-is.  Would I possibly be making a big mistake and causing damage to the new LifeLine AGM batteries (or anything else)?
(In case it helps, in 2013 or 2014, my converter appears to have been upgraded to Progressive Dynamics PD4600 Series Converter Replacement Unit with a built-in Charge Wizard.)

Appreciate any and all other comments.

Thank you,
Eric
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #3 –
"Would I possibly be making a big mistake and causing damage to the new LifeLine AGM batteries...?"

AGMs really do not like to be overcharged. I'd follow Lifeline's recommendations to the letter. See the Lifeline battery technical manual for details. Charging recommendations are on page 19.

Note that the recommended voltages depend upon the temperature. Does the HPV-22 have a temperature sensor? You may want to consider a modern controller such as the Blue Sky 3000i, which fits the same space.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #4 –
I had the HPV22B charge controller in my 2003; it was replaced with the Blue Sky 3000i after the HPV overcharged the AGMs to the point that one actually split.

AGMs (like lithium) are not "plug and play" into whatever charge controller and converter that one happens to have; the components have to be matched.

If you prefer to keep the HPV, you may want to consider installing Trojan T-105 watered cell batteries with a "Pro-Fill" system.

YMMV, as always.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #5 –
Our 2010 27' RB has this factory notation for our model.  Our unit also has the 22B command/control face.

"Sealed, maintenance-free AGM batteries replace Trojan T-105 flooded-cell batteries"

Joan, is it possible that your charger was defective; hence overcharging your batteries?

I ask because I was just about to purchase a pair of AGM batteries, but really hesitate to do so now while maintaining the 22B. 

Guess the real question is - is it safe to install AGM batteries and keep the factory installed 22B?  Many folks in my shoes with the same question. 

Cheers!

Tony R. (aka codefour)
Tony R
2010 LD RB - Sold to another happy LD Family
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #6 –
The HPV22B worked well with the original Trojan T-105 watered cell batteries, so I doubt if the charge controller was defective.  Before spending on AGMs, you may want to study the requirements in the Lifeline PDF that Andy linked to, and call Lifeline and talk to one of their techs about the compatibility of the HPV22 with their AGMs.

AGMs are very pricey, and I would not install them without confirmation from the manufacturer of the batteries that the HPV22 can provide the proper levels of charge.

YMMV, as always.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #7 –
Switching to AGM's will cost you 2x the price of traditional lead acids.  Buying a new charge controller will add a few hundred more $ to the bill.

Maybe it's ok to not care as well as you should for the lead acids and replace them along the way.  It's cheaper any way.....

Rich
2003 MB
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #8 –
The Heliotrope MPPT solar charge controllers came about early in the technology, and they are NOT modern multi-stage units. They have bulk and absorption stages but no automatic switching to any maintenance mode. Therefore they are prone to overcharging your batteries, which will kill AGMs. It may be possible to adjust the voltage they switch to absorption mode, necessary for setting up AGMs, but that does not solve the problem. They will boil the electrolyte off flooded cell batteries too, but a Pro-Fill or similar system makes keeping the proper level pretty easy.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #9 –
Hi Everyone,

I appreciate all of the input, but I'm wondering if the following additional information leads you to reconsider that maybe, just maybe, my current set-up will, in fact, work well with the LifeLine AGM batteries.

Thanks Andy for the link to the manual for the LifeLine AGM batteries.  Page 19 (about Charging) says:
1)  "...a 3-stage charging profile is recommended.
2)  A voltage setting of 14.3 volts +/- 0.1 volts should be used when the battery temperature is 77 degrees F."

I get that I may be overlooking quite a bit, but I found some additional information that has me wondering if my HPV-22  Solar Controller and my PD4600 Charge Controller set-up will meet the above-stated requirements from the LifeLine manual.  Here is relevant information from my manuals that has me more confident:
1)  HPV-22 (non-B) MPPT Solar Charge Controller.  The factory setting for the Voltage Set Point is 14.3 (+/- 0.1) volts.  This matches exactly with what the LifeLine manual states should be used for a voltage setting.  As an FYI, the manual also says that it has "Bulk" charging using MPPT until the battery voltage approaches the controller's battery voltage set point.  It then moves into "Absorbtion" charging and the "Charging Amps" taper off until it's "trickle" charging.
2)  Progressive Dynamics PD4600 Series Converter Replacement that was installed in 2014.  This converter has a "Charge Wizard 4-State charging system built in" and "This converter/charger will not boil the battery!"  I may be WAY oversimplying Electricity 101 here, but wouldn't the Converter act like a "filter" and prevent the Solar Charger from causing any overcharging or boiling of my AGMs?

I know I should still contact LifeLine to ask about the compatibility of my set-up with their LifeLine GPL-4CT AGM batteries, but I would still like to hear any second (or first) thoughts from my LD friends.

Thank you,
Eric


Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #10 –
Hi Eric. The Progressive Dynamics converter and the solar controller are connected in parallel to your batteries.  Whichever charger was providing the highest voltage would 'win' the battle, and the other controller would back off the charge voltage to not overcharge the batteries, be they wet, or not as wet, AGM. 
    I would dial back the voltage output of the HPV-22, to the voltage that the HPV-22b would output if it were placed in the 'shore-power' mode.  As stated by  the LD companion, the 'low' mode at 13.2 volts won't hurt the new AGM batteries.  If I remember correctly the HPV-22 does have the battery temperature sensor.  My old SB2000i did have the temp sensor.
    If you find that the new AGM batteries aren't being kept up to what you want, you can always change it back.  I think you'll find that the 13.2 volt float voltage will be good.   The SB3000i goes to float mode at 13.2 volts also, for AGM batteries.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #11 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
Hi Eric. The Progressive Dynamics converter and the solar controller are connected in parallel to your batteries.  Whichever charger was providing the highest voltage would 'win' the battle, and the other controller would back off the charge voltage to not overcharge the batteries, be they wet, or not as wet, AGM. 
    I would dial back the voltage output of the HPV-22, to the voltage that the HPV-22b would output if it were placed in the 'shore-power' mode.  As stated by  the LD companion, the 'low' mode at 13.2 volts won't hurt the new AGM batteries.  If I remember correctly the HPV-22 does have the battery temperature sensor.  My old SB2000i did have the temp sensor.
    If you find that the new AGM batteries aren't being kept up to what you want, you can always change it back.  I think you'll find that the 13.2 volt float voltage will be good.  The SB3000i goes to float mode at 13.2 volts also, for AGM batteries.  RonB
Thanks Ron for educating me about the Solar Controller and Controller/Charger working in parallel.  Makes perfect sense now.  Also, you're right that the HPV-22 does have the temperature mode.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that I can change one of the DIP switch settings to put the HPV-22 Solar Controller into "shore power mode" (ie. 13.2 volts).  So, I'm glad to hear that that is an option if I don't want to spend a few hundred dollars upgrading to the SB33000i unit.  On the other hand, I'm wondering what the downside is of going this route given that LifeLine recommends 14.3 volts (+/- 0.1 volts)?  Will I never have a full charge of my battery?
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #12 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
Hi Eric. The Progressive Dynamics converter and the solar controller are connected in parallel to your batteries.  Whichever charger was providing the highest voltage would 'win' the battle, and the other controller would back off the charge voltage to not overcharge the batteries, be they wet, or not as wet, AGM. 
    I would dial back the voltage output of the HPV-22, to the voltage that the HPV-22b would output if it were placed in the 'shore-power' mode.  As stated by  the LD companion, the 'low' mode at 13.2 volts won't hurt the new AGM batteries.  If I remember correctly the HPV-22 does have the battery temperature sensor.  My old SB2000i did have the temp sensor.
    If you find that the new AGM batteries aren't being kept up to what you want, you can always change it back.  I think you'll find that the 13.2 volt float voltage will be good.  The SB3000i goes to float mode at 13.2 volts also, for AGM batteries.  RonB

Do I have this right now?  If I change the HPV-22 DIP Switch #2 to the "Low" position, the HPV-22 Solar Charger will only charge up to 13.2 volts.  Since the LifeLine AGMs call for a Float voltage of 13.3, the AGMs should be safe from overcharging/boiling.

This sounds like a good option, partly because it removes the need to spend $250 on the SB3000i 3-stage solar controller.    I'm sure there are downsides to this approach versus the SB3000i unit (eg. it will take longer to charge the batteries)  What are they?

Thank for all of your continued advice!
Eric
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #13 –
Eric, the charge current delivered by the solar controller is determined by its voltage and the charge state of the batteries. Limiting the output to 13.2 V will keep the batteries from losing electrolyte, but it will also seriously limit the ability of the solar array from recharging your batteries when you are not using shorepower. As long as you are willing to fiddle with DIP switches, you should keep the voltage at 13.2V when on shorepower, but switch to the higher voltage to charge up when boondocking. Ideally, once the voltage has risen to 14.3V, monitor the charge current, and when it drops below 1 Amp, switch back to 13.2V. You may find that this happens naturally by sunset - but keep your eye on it. Also, make the check when everything else is off, since the solar system will be powering lights, fans, etc during the day, supplying the needed current for that. Upgrading to a true 3 or 4 stage controller will allow you to set-and-forget - much more relaxing. Or, skip the AGM's and stick with flooded cell and a Pro-Fill system. Much cheaper, less worry, and similar lifetime.

Steve

p.s. When LD was installing factory AGMs with the Heliotrope controller, many had premature battery failure...
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #14 –
"Upgrading to a true 3 or 4 stage controller will allow you to set-and-forget - much more relaxing. Or, skip the AGM's and stick with flooded cell and a Pro-Fill system. Much cheaper, less worry, and similar lifetime."
---
Bingo.

"When LD was installing factory AGMs with the Heliotrope controller, many had premature battery failure..."
----
And when AM solar did the same, bingo redux.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #15 –
I've been quiet for this debate but ...<smile>   the first question is how long do you plan to keep and use your LD.   Once I have that answer I can give my opinion as to the original question.  
In the long run lithium is the cheapest upgrade.   But if your plan is only for a few years (three or less) then just get the cheapest batteries that will work for you.   Then just get a good nights sleep.

glen
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #16 –
If you're still considering the 3000i, note that it will also divert up to two amps to maintain the starting battery in your coach while in storage.  That's a big deal for RV used seasonally.

Steve
2015 TK
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Steve TK  - 
If you're still considering the 3000i, note that it will also divert up to two amps to maintain the starting battery in your coach while in storage.  That's a big deal for RV used seasonally.

I can't count how many folks I know who have suffered through the destruction of a set (or two) of AGMs, due to overcharging, at $600+ a pair, it can be painful.
AGMs are very sensitive to overcharging because the electrolyte cannot be added to or topped off, as a lead-acid battery can.
I have heard of few problems from users of the Blue Sky 3000i, the controller LD has used with AGMs for years. As Rich points out, the Blue Sky can also keep the starting battery charged, our LD's starting battery life has greatly increased while using one.

When LD first installed AGM, they had dozens of batteries go bad under warranty due to overcharging, using the same equipment that worked fine with the lead-acid batteries.
Keep an eye on charge voltage and consider installing a battery monitor so you can see the actual voltages and charge levels, it provides a lot of information if you use it.

I will stay a lead-acid battery user until lithiums become more affordable and my existing batteries wear out, it may be a while with a 7-8 year life span.
Being able to add water is useful if the charge level is high, a battery can tolerate and survive high charge levels better if the electrolyte can be topped off.
With a Pro-Fill better watering system, servicing the battery is fast, clean and easy. Other than not needing water service, AGMs do not offer any major features over lead-acid batteries for most LD owners, other than draining your wallet faster.
If money isn't an issue or you plan on long-term ownership, as Glen pointed out, lithiums may be a better choice.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #18 –
Then for me the issue is resolved!

For the short haul I am going to stay with my HPV-22B and lead-acid batteries that are 2 years old in very good shape.

Is there a particular Pro-Fill model that you recommend for the standard 6v-dual battery set up.  Looks like the choices are endless.

Much appreciated.

Tony R. (aka codefour0
Tony R
2010 LD RB - Sold to another happy LD Family
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #19 –
Quote from: codefour  - 
Is there a particular Pro-Fill model that you recommend for the standard 6v-dual battery set up.  Looks like the choices are endless.

2-battery manifold kit. The Pro-Fill is manufactured by Flow-Rite and is what out LD is equipped with.
Amazon.com: Flow-Rite RV2000 Pro-Fill RV Edition 2 Battery Kit: Automotive

Pump kit
Amazon.com : Flow-Rite Hydro Link Battery Watering Hand Pump for RV or Golf...

Larry
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #20 –
Quote from: codefour  - 
Then for me the issue is resolved!

For the short haul I am going to stay with my HPV-22B and lead-acid batteries that are 2 years old in very good shape.

Is there a particular Pro-Fill model that you recommend for the standard 6v-dual battery set up.  Looks like the choices are endless.

Much appreciated.

Tony R. (aka codefour0
Tony, I've had your setup for 14 years and never had an issue. Swapped out the original 22 for the 22b in '06. 3 - 85 w solar panels. My 3rd set of batteries are 7 yrs old. Upgraded the Pro-Fill 5 yrs ago.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
 
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #21 –
Thank you LD wise men and women. 

I just ordered the Pro-fill product and pump recommended in the above link by Larry.

Have been filling with a turkey baster - so this will be a treat! :D  :D
Cheers!

Tony R. (aka codefour)
Tony R
2010 LD RB - Sold to another happy LD Family
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #22 –
Quote from: codefour  - 
I just ordered the Pro-fill product and pump recommended in the above link by Larry.
Have been filling with a turkey baster - so this will be a treat! :D  :D

I forgot about the baster and mirror days, you will be happily surprised how easy it is to add water.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #23 –
Quote from: codefour  - 
Looks like the choices are endless.

Tony R. (aka codefour0

Yup .....  what ya got here on this forum are folks from all sorts of geographic locations and age groups and with all sort of life goals.   And <smile> on top of that not all LD's are the same.   They are slow to changes but the Mothership makes changes now and then.   What I'm saying is a person maybe giving good advice but it's not appreciable for assorted very good reasons.   

The LD has great bones that is why we can customize it.   It's a blessing and a curse. 

glen
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: Replacing flooded batteries with AGM. Changing Solar Controller settings?
Reply #24 –
Thanks so much everyone! I really learned a lot in a few short days of posts.

More costly, but worth it to me...I'm going the route of 2 LifeLine AGMs with the SB3000i solar controller, and I feel confident about making this change myself, but if anyone has tips or tricks about this process, I'm all ears.