Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

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Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

December 12, 2020, 11:41:39 am

I am putting this in Around The Campfire, instead of Technical but I really want some technical replies.

1) Someone on FB asked about the "best" trickle charger. I did not offer a brand but suggested to not get a cheap one as it might damage the battery. Now I really don't know if cheap ones really can reduce the life of a battery or not, but I have heard it and it might be true. How say you? Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence? Please note I am not asking for the brand name of a trickle charger.

2) Second, since the LD was going to be stored away from home, servicing the water level in the battery might be a hassle. So I suggested disconnect switches for the chassis and house batteries in lieu of trickle chargers. This is the way I put my batteries in storage. I think it's healthier for the batteries. How say you?

3) Another commenter was emphatic that all batteries discharge unless kept under charge. I have not found that a battery that is not connected loses any appreciable charge. What say you?

Please be sure to make your replies to the three questions as spot-on as possible without undue wandering around.

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #1 – December 12, 2020, 01:18:49 pm

Don, see my responses below.

1. I have been using battery charger-maintainer-desulfators for some time. Currently I have several of them in service. They are 1.5 Amp max battery charger-maintainers with full-time automatic high frequency pulse desulfation (not high voltage). Recently I noticed issues with one of our vehicle’s battery. I checked the alternator and vehicle’s charging circuity and found no issues. So, I replaced the four-year old battery and kept it to see if one of these chargers could “revive” it. Initial voltage before charging was 12.5 volts, which is about an 80% state-of-charge. Every week I would disconnect the charger for 24-48 hours to retest. Every week the resting voltage increased until week six when it was at 12.8 volts or 100%. After resting for another week, the voltage was at 12.7+ volts. The electrolyte level in each cell remained the same, no losses.

2. I store our LD at home uncovered. The house batteries are Trojan T-105s and are kept charged by our solar panels via a Blue Sky Energy SB3000i Solar Charge Controller. The chassis battery is maintained by a Trik-L-Start charger-maintainer sharing the solar output from the SB3000i. If I was storing covered I would disconnect the Trik-L-Start and use 1.5 Amp max battery charger-maintainers for both.

3. Per Progressive Dynamics "All batteries, regardless of their chemistry, will self-discharge. The rate of self-discharge for lead acid batteries depends on the storage or operating temperature. At a temperature of 80 degrees F. a lead acid battery will self-discharge at a rate of approximately 4% a week. A battery with a 125-amp hour rating would self-discharge at a rate of approximately five amps per week. Keeping this in mind if a 125 AH battery is stored for four months (16 weeks) winter without being charged, it will lose 80 amps of its 125-amp capacity. It will also have severe sulfation, which causes additional loss of capacity. Keep your batteries charged while not in use!"

Charles

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #2 – December 12, 2020, 01:39:36 pm

Hi Charles. No need to disconnect the Trik-L-Start. It won't overcharge the chassis battery, and if there is no solar charging extra power available, it shuts off and won't discharge the battery it is connected to. I have the SB3000i and Trik-L-Start also.

Don, I use a low tech Harbor Freight trickle charger sucessfully for months at a time. Doesn't harm the battery, and supplies quiescent power for engine computer, alarm system. radio memory. https://www.harborfreight.com/automatic-battery-float-charger-64284.html
Lead acid batteries do self discharge, but more like the 1% per month if it is cold 40-50 F. More discharge at higher temperatures. Just sitting, statification of electrolyte, and sulphation happen, but can be reversed by motion, charging, and de-sulphation charging routines. My disconnect switch is a box wrench, and I don't do that unless I'm working on parts of the system.
My rig is stored in my driveway, full solar all the time, but here it never gets below 30F. RonB

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #3 – December 12, 2020, 01:55:45 pm

Switching gears a bit . . . I know there are lots of variables here but generally, how long can one reasonably expect the chassis battery to last? Should I be concerned that the original 2017 battery will need replacing soon? Or the house batteries, for that matter?

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #4 – December 12, 2020, 02:22:29 pm

Quote from: HiLola - December 12, 2020, 01:55:45 pm

Switching gears a bit . . . I know there are lots of variables here but generally, how long can one reasonably expect the chassis battery to last? Should I be concerned that the original 2017 battery will need replacing soon? Or the house batteries, for that matter?

Greg, from my experience standard lead-acid chassis batteries usually last about 3 to 4 years. Our LD had a new Duralast Gold lead-acid chassis battery when we purchased it from the estate of the original owner and it is still performing well. Don't you have an AGM house battery bank? I know that true deep-cycle lead-acid batteries can last up to five, six, or maybe more years if properly managed and maintained. My Trojan T105s are three years old and appear to perform as new. I would assume an AGM bank would last as long.

Charles

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #5 – December 12, 2020, 02:31:27 pm

Quote from: Charles & Donna - December 12, 2020, 02:22:29 pm

Greg, from my experience standard lead-acid chassis batteries usually last about 3 to 4 years. Our LD had a new Duralast Gold lead-acid chassis battery when we purchased it from the estate of the original owner and it is still performing well. Don't you have an AGM house battery bank? I know that true deep-cycle lead-acid batteries can last up to five, six, or maybe more years if properly managed and maintained. My Trojan T105s are three years old and appear to perform as new. I would assume an AGM bank would last as long.

Looks like I better start doing some research for a replacement chassis battery then. Yes, the house batteries are AGM. Glad for that as there are no water levels to check. 👍 Thanks, Charles!

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #6 – December 12, 2020, 02:37:45 pm

Quote from: RonB - December 12, 2020, 01:39:36 pm

Hi Charles. No need to disconnect the Trik-L-Start. It won't overcharge the chassis battery, and if there is no solar charging extra power available, it shuts off and won't discharge the battery it is connected to. I have the SB3000i and Trik-L-Start also.

Don, I use a low tech Harbor Freight trickle charger sucessfully for months at a time. Doesn't harm the battery, and supplies quiescent power for engine computer, alarm system. radio memory. https://www.harborfreight.com/automatic-battery-float-charger-64284.html
Lead acid batteries do self discharge, but more like the 1% per month if it is cold 40-50 F. More discharge at higher temperatures. Just sitting, statification of electrolyte, and sulphation happen, but can be reversed by motion, charging, and de-sulphation charging routines. My disconnect switch is a box wrench, and I don't do that unless I'm working on parts of the system.
My rig is stored in my driveway, full solar all the time, but here it never gets below 30F. RonB

Hi Ron. I didn't have the Trik-L-Start until earlier this year. Before I installed it I used a BatteryMINDer 1510: 12 Volt-1.5 AMP Battery Charger, Battery Maintainer, and Battery Desulfator BatteryMINDer to charge and maintain the chassis battery.

Charles

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #7 – December 12, 2020, 02:57:12 pm

Thanks Charles. Greg, Your chassis battery can easily last 7-8 years. It is only used to start the engine. Don't leave you lights on, the dash cigarette lighter plugs are only if you are going to be driving. My GPS goes there. RonB

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #8 – December 12, 2020, 06:55:50 pm

Quote from: RonB - December 12, 2020, 02:57:12 pm

Thanks Charles. Greg, Your chassis battery can easily last 7-8 years. It is only used to start the engine. Don't leave you lights on, the dash cigarette lighter plugs are only if you are going to be driving. My GPS goes there. RonB

Ron, I've never had a starting battery last 7-8 years. What kind and brand of battery have you had last that long? Lead-acid batteries used to be warranted for 3, 4, or 4 years but now for 1, 2, or 3. Heck, I remember going to the local battery shop with my dad to have the family car battery rebuilt on-premise. In retrospect, that was an extremely hazardous facility.

As far as the dash cigarette lighter plugs, I'm trying to figure out if I can re-wire one to the house bank so I can power our new Massimo 12V Portable E-Kooler. We only have two 12V outlets connected to the house bank and they are in the rear. I want to have the cooler between the cab seats when we are stationary and don’t want to run the supply cable from back to front. Thinking I could access the house 12V supply off the DC Power Contactor located under hood on the driver’s side.

Charles

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #9 – December 12, 2020, 07:56:52 pm

Ron, on the drive back to Cali, I was using one of the dash 12V receptacles for phone charging without the engine running but assumed it was wired to the coach battery since it was hot. Are the dash outlets wired hot to the chassis battery (there are three of them in the cab portion). Can’t remember why I did that but it was only for one night.

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #10 – December 12, 2020, 08:42:25 pm

LOL! Sorry, Don, it didn't take long for the thread to start wandering around like they ususally do even though you specifically asked for answers to your three questions. . I'm not sure why people can't post new threads instead of hijacking existing ones. It gets annoying sometimes.

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #11 – December 13, 2020, 02:47:57 am

I'll extend this thread here in technical, instead of around the campfire. Hi Charles and Greg. The chassis battery that came with it, Motocraft Ford, lasted at least 6 years. (I'll look it up in my records tomorrow). I put in a buzzer to remind me to turn off the headlights and marker lights. It's not a deep cycle battery so not as forgiving. The dash power point has a cover and is accessory, turns off with a key. The other lower is connected to the house battery, and I may have connected it to the radio when I replaced the one LD provided. Because the new (1998 vintage now) radio had high power demands if it was turned up, I increased the size of the fuse from 10 Amp to 20 Amps. Thats just a peak draw, the average is much lower. I'm sure the wire is fine. My #2 chassis battery was a Diehard Sears. Expensive then, but lasted 8 years. The next Diehard (inst 2013) lasted until 2018. Ok, only 5 years. I believe that Diehards went to AGM, so I put in a Costco Interstate in 2018. So that is my fourth starting/chassis battery. With the Trik-L-Start and solar, It is doing well. I don't have cold weather, and just short periods of hot weather. I start and run the engine, drive it around, at least every month or so. Not stored, no snow, etc. So that is about the best things can be for a battery.
Greg. You were driving daily, so the chassis battery wasn't harmed. Phone charging is a very minor load.
Charles, taking power off of the charging line for cooler use, will work. There is a circuit breaker to protect the wire going back to the house batteries. A fuse and label at the charging relay would protect the wire going to the cooler, and the cooler has its own fuse. RonB

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #12 – December 13, 2020, 07:48:19 am

Well, the replies did wander.

I have gleaned:

1) Trickle chargers are commonly used, but no one has any evidence that they shorten the life of a battery.

2) I have found using trickle or solar I have to top off the water in the battery every month. No one addressed this.
If I disconnect, the water level remains constant. I have not noticed exactly how much the batteries discharge, but after 2-3 months, it's less than 10%. More than that and I would have gotten concerned. I think I will stay with flipping the switch.

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #13 – December 13, 2020, 08:44:56 am

Thanks, Ron, and my apologies to Don as I was the one that started his thread wandering, I think.

Electrical is certainly my weak point so please bear with me. One thing that's nice on the 2017 is a warning chime that alerts you that the headlights are on although it only sounds when you open the cab door so if you just stop and park and don't open the door, you have to remember to turn the lights off. The markers lights work off the headlight switch, correct?

On my drive back, I kept forgetting to turn on the headlights and the backup camera (which is a nice thing to leave on while driving to monitor oncoming and merging traffic), so I placed a piece of paper on the console that said "Lights, camera, action!" That was a helpful reminder so maybe a reminder label on the dash would be good.

Another new thing for me is solar. It's great feature! Does it top off the chassis battery as well as the house batteries?

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #14 – December 13, 2020, 12:25:42 pm

Quote from: HiLola - December 13, 2020, 08:44:56 am

Another new thing for me is solar. It's great feature! Does it top off the chassis battery as well as the house batteries?

The solar controller should be wired so the starting battery is also charged.
Our starting battery usually lasts 4-6 years, keeping the charge topped off helps increase its life.

Larry

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #15 – December 13, 2020, 12:30:03 pm

No trickle charger here, we usually get long lives out of both the starting and coach batteries, the Blue Sky 3000i solar controller does a good job of keeping both sets of batteries fully charged without using excessive amounts of water.

Larry

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #16 – December 13, 2020, 01:23:02 pm

Hi Larry,

Just for clarification, are you saying that if a Lazy Daze coach had factory installed solar that part of the default installation is to wire the starting battery for charging or did you mean that if one was going to install after market solar that it would be a good idea to have it wired for charging both starting and coach batteries. I am hoping the former since I have a factory installed panel and this would be a nice feature to have.

Thanks. Matt

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #17 – December 13, 2020, 06:09:38 pm

1: Battery Tender

2: Water level doesn't go down much if not being used.

3: If it's at all cold batteries lose power.

How's that for no wandering?

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #18 – December 13, 2020, 09:36:24 pm

[merged 2 topics that belong together - Michelle]

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #19 – December 14, 2020, 07:18:53 am

Quote from: Mattb - December 13, 2020, 01:23:02 pm

Hi Larry,

"Just for clarification, are you saying that if a Lazy Daze coach had factory installed solar that part of the default installation is to wire the starting battery for charging or did you mean that if one was going to install after market solar that it would be a good idea to have it wired for charging both starting and coach batteries. I am hoping the former since I have a factory installed panel and this would be a nice feature to have."
Thanks. Matt

Hi Matt,

First off, I am not Larry and I won't attempt to tell you what he meant. But I notice that your LD is a 2004 model; the factory installed solar panels were not intended to charge the chassis/truck battery back then. I posted several years ago that the 2016 information packet that LD had mailed to me said that they were now installing solar that would charge the truck battery. I think that was the first year that feature was available on factory solar installation.

These are the kinds of little things missed by the"Lazy Daze Pocket Guide Changes Through the Years".

I hope this answered your question.
Steve K

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #20 – December 14, 2020, 08:32:52 am

Confirming what Steve says, the solar does charge the chassis battery now. Just found it in the spec sheet for my year, 2017.

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #21 – December 14, 2020, 12:23:26 pm

Thanks Steve. Disappointed that is not my setup but glad that later model owner's enjoy this benefit. Happy Holidays!

Matt

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #22 – December 14, 2020, 01:04:35 pm

My 2003 LD does have a battery disconnect switch, which was wired around at some point in the past. So it no longer works although it is still in place. I put a battery tender on the chassis battery and that eliminated my starting issues. I run 20amp 110v power cord to the engine compartment when I am parked and also plug in two 60w led lights. That has kept packrats away so far.

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #23 – December 14, 2020, 01:24:53 pm

Quote from: Mattb - December 14, 2020, 12:23:26 pm

Disappointed that is not my setup but glad that later model owners enjoy this benefit. Happy Holidays!

Upgrading to a newer solar controller, such as the Blue Sky 3000i will provide the circuit needed to charge the starting battery.
A new wire will need to be run to the starting battery or battery isolator. It's worth the effort.

Larry

Re: Trickle Chargers vs Disconnect Switches

Reply #24 – December 14, 2020, 02:00:57 pm

Quote from: Larry W - December 14, 2020, 01:24:53 pm

Upgrading to a newer solar controller, such as the Blue Sky 3000i will provide the circuit needed to charge the starting battery.
A new wire will need to be run to the starting battery or battery isolator. It's worth the effort.

Larry, when I replaced the Heliotrope HPV-22 that LD installed with a Blue Sky SB3000i I concluded the only way (at least aesthetically) to run a wire from it to the chassis battery would be to pull the refrigerator to gain access to the wire run. Was I mistaken?

Charles

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