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Topic: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves (Read 783 times) previous topic - next topic
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Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Well it was time to get new oil and brake fluid.  Call the Ford Dealership - Northwest Ford Truck.  Gave em the keys went home.  Oh three, four hours later seems the guys while backing off the lift re-designed the black/gray tank plumbing.  See included image.  They shared with me that they would repair said design mod.  I was told it would take five days or so to get the part.  Today they called.  I picked up 'Baxter' drove home.    I tested said repair by putting water thru the system. No joy.  But sides were leaking.    I returned 'Baxter' to Dealership.  Pointed out were the water was leaking - suggested next time to test the system by putting some water thru the system but keep your hands out of the toilet.  They will look at it tomorrow as they have run out of time today.    I'm thinking they'll have no luck fixing the leak.  I'll let em suffer for a few then take it off their hands and do the job myself.

Who said owning a RV was cheap or easy (smile) -- wallet feeling a tad lighter.

glen
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement
Reply #1
I’m sorry this happened to you; the low-hanging, combined dump terminals in newer TKs are particularly vulnerable to damage, IMO. I measured a little over 7” of clearance on a newer (I think it was a 2016 or 2017) TK at a Morro Bay gathering. 

Hope it can be repaired.  :(
2003 TK has a new home

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement
Reply #2
Well it was time to get new oil and brake fluid.  Call the Ford Dealership - Northwest Ford Truck.  Gave em the keys went home.  Oh three, four hours later seems the guys while backing off the lift re-designed the black/gray tank plumbing.  See included image.  They shared with me that they would repair said design mod.  I was told it would take five days or so to get the part.  Today they called.  I picked up 'Baxter' drove home.    I tested said repair by putting water thru the system. No joy.  But sides were leaking.    I returned 'Baxter' to Dealership.  Pointed out were the water was leaking - suggested next time to test the system by putting some water thru the system but keep your hands out of the toilet.  They will look at it tomorrow as they have run out of time today.    I'm thinking they'll have no luck fixing the leak.  I'll let em suffer for a few then take it off their hands and do the job myself.

Who said owning a RV was cheap or easy (smile) -- wallet feeling a tad lighter.

glen
Sorry for your inconvenience, Glen. I'm afraid it's incidents like this at Ford dealerships that cause more and more dealerships to stop servicing Ford-chassised RVs.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement
Reply #3
Glen, give a holler if you have to fix it yourself (if you want a second opinion for fix choices).
It should have been an easy fix but obviously ford dealers are not plumbers, I would politely insist they get a plumber involved - they are way over their head (since they left a couple leaks after their first "fix").

Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #4
The photo is hard to see but it looks like the elbow has broken off the valve, does it look like this ?
https://www.etrailer.com/RV-Sewer/Valterra/T1035.html
That's a fairly easy fix. Are the tanks damaged or only the valve fitting,?
 A more detailed explanation of exactly what was damaged and where it was leaking after the first "repair" would be helpful..

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #5

Follow  up .....

Got 'Baxter' with her new Amazon.com: Valterra Ell Double Rotating Valve, Mess-Free Waste Valve for....    Tested and no leaks.   We are happy.

Ford Dealership will toss in a free oil change next time I come back.     They did good by me.   The day I'm perfect I'll demand that out of others.    They made a mistake then made me whole.  That's all I can ask of them.

glen

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #6
Glen, I agree, making you whole counts for a lot!
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.

 
Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #7
Quote
I'm sorry this happened to you; the low-hanging, combined dump terminals in newer TKs are particularly vulnerable to damage, IMO. I measured a little over 7" of clearance on a newer (I think it was a 2016 or 2017) TK at a Morro Bay gathering. 

My wife and I just got our first LD - a 2013 24' TK, and the first thing we noticed when looking at it was the low-hanging dump valve setup.  We like to boondock, and are worried about scraping it inadvertently, even in town.  I'm wondering why Lazy Daze designed it that way, when virtually everything else seems very well though out.  Has anyone been able to re-route the lines to raise this a bit?

Thanks.
Dreamchaser
2013 Twin King

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #8
My wife and I just got our first LD - a 2013 24' TK, and the first thing we noticed when looking at it was the low-hanging dump valve setup.  We like to boondock, and are worried about scraping it inadvertently, even in town.  I'm wondering why Lazy Daze designed it that way, when virtually everything else seems very well though out.  Has anyone been able to re-route the lines to raise this a bit?

What you see is what you get, the newer models valves hang even lower, after the remodeling of the tanks to increase their capacity.
The drains need to at the bottom of the tanks and there is no way to have the valves mounted higher and still fully drain the tanks.. LDs have low roof lines, part of accomplishing this feat is having the coach's floor closer to the ground, with limited area space beneath for the holding tanks. Nothing is perfect.
The dumps valves are most likely to be damaged when negotiating poor roads with deep dips.
If you are very concerned, carry a spare valve assembly. When hit hard, the valves usually break without damaging the tank's
outlet. The valves are attached to the tanks with rubber coupliers and hose clamps.

Larry



Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #9
OK.  Has anyone tried something like a skid plate for the dump valve area?

Ken
Dreamchaser
2013 Twin King

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #10
Or...  Thinking outside the box - what about a flexible connection at the holding tanks - allowing the waste pipes to swing up when not being dumped - then swing down to dump?
Dreamchaser
2013 Twin King

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #11
OK.  Has anyone tried something like a skid plate for the dump valve area?

Or...  Thinking outside the box - what about a flexible connection at the holding tanks - allowing the waste pipes to swing up when not being dumped - then swing down to dump?

What would the skid plated be attached to?  You could glue a large ABS plastic plate over the valve, something that would hang even lower.
Take a hard look at the valve, where would it swing up too that wouldn't be outside of the body?  And the valve will still be as low, no matter what you do.
If you figure out a better way to deal with the dump valves, definitely let us know.
On the positive side, I have heard of only a couple of instances where a newer T/K's dump valve was damaged.

Your frustrations with the dump valves have been well discussed around campfires for decades, each floor plan has its advantages and disadvantages.
You have discovered the newer T/K's weak spot.
T/Ks built before 2010 had smaller holding tanks, around 18-24 gallons each, with higher, twin dump outlets, your 2013 T/K has 28 and 32-gallon holding tanks with one outlet. Owners of older T/Ks have always complained of having holding tanks that are too small.
In the process of increasing the tank's capacity, the tanks and dump valve now hang lower. Joan Taylor and I spotted this on a new T/K at the March Morro Bay event, in 2010 or 2011, we were surprised how vulnerable the new dump valve looked.
It was a trade off, bigger tanks or a higher dump valves. Bigger tanks won.

Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #12
Larry, do the newer MB's have this "low hanging fruit" problem?  How about the RB's or FD's?
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #13
Just a thought which I'm certain can be easily torn to shreds if anyone desires. A drain system could be designed that exits at a point above the frame by using a pumping system. Far more complicated than a gravity based drain and more ways to break down but it would eliminate the weak link in the chain that the low hanging drain valves have always been in RVs.

It could be based on something similar to this.

"Non-clogging design passes up to 2" spherical solids"
Little Giant 511431 10SC-CIA-SFS - 1/2 HP Cast Iron Sewage Pump 2-Inch w/...
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #14
Sawyer, I agree with you and Larry.  As Larry says you can’t just change those outlet pipes.  A pump could solve the issue, I am betting with a macerator needed for the black tank.   Plumbing expertise would be needed to do a good Job.
Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #15
I'm afraid it's incidents like this at Ford dealerships that cause more and more dealerships to stop servicing Ford-chassised RVs.

Chris
Earlier this year, I had to find a replacement Ford dealership to service my 2017 MB.  The previous one (I had used them on my previous 2002 MB) had decided to stop servicing RVs - and they were a Ford Truck service center.  Yesterday, I went for an oil change at my replacement Ford dealership.  They told me that they will no longer be repairing RVs.  They will only do oil changes.  I told the service agent I hope it wasn't because of the $4,000 they had to pay for the damage they did to the overhead cab back in May.  He said it was a decision from "upper management" and that RVs are hard to repair.  Oh well.  Time to find another repair place - again.
Glenn & Joan Lambert
Redford, MI
2017 27' Mid-Bath

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #16
I'll admit - I was sort of free-thinking here - trying to throw out possible avenues to investigate.  I was trying to avoid putting a pump down there, but that could work too.

My skid plate idea probably would lower clearance a bit, depending on how it's done, but still might be preferable to having the dump valves peeled off on a rock or curb.  I'll agree - probably not the most desirable method.  A compromise might be to weld some protective angled steel bars that would not pass under the pipe, but would take the hit first, acting as a warning before your valves get torn off. 

My idea for a flexible joint at the holding tank outlets would require a bit of modification underneath, and possibly to the side of the LD.  I was thinking the flexible joint woud allow raising the whole dump pipe assembly under the frame while not in use, then some sort of cable or strap to lower when dumping.  To make it cleaner, you might have to put some sort of small access door similar  in size to the current cover for the flexible hose storage the LD's have now, which you would open to connect to the valves for dumping.  You probably would have to shorten the pipes a bit to tuck everything up inside the chassis.  Certainly would take a bit more engineering to develop a clean working solution.  I don't think it's impossible - but it is probably going to take more work.
Dreamchaser
2013 Twin King

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #17
Earlier this year, I had to find a replacement Ford dealership to service my 2017 MB.  The previous one (I had used them on my previous 2002 MB) had decided to stop servicing RVs - and they were a Ford Truck service center.  Yesterday, I went for an oil change at my replacement Ford dealership.  They told me that they will no longer be repairing RVs.  They will only do oil changes.  I told the service agent I hope it wasn't because of the $4,000 they had to pay for the damage they did to the overhead cab back in May.  He said it was a decision from "upper management" and that RVs are hard to repair.  Oh well.  Time to find another repair place - again.

Many shops that used to service RVs, as a part of their overall service, had discontinued doing so because of the incidental damage that accidently occurs. i know of more than one shop that stopped working on RV because of this problem.
RVs are delicate with poor driver visibilty. It's easy to run over or to back into something when manuvering in a shop's crowed parking lot
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #18
I'll admit - I was sort of free-thinking here - trying to throw out possible avenues to investigate.  I was trying to avoid putting a pump down there, but that could work too.

My skid plate idea probably would lower clearance a bit, depending on how it's done, but still might be preferable to having the dump valves peeled off on a rock or curb.  I'll agree - probably not the most desirable method.  A compromise might be to weld some protective angled steel bars that would not pass under the pipe, but would take the hit first, acting as a warning before your valves get torn off. 

My idea for a flexible joint at the holding tank outlets would require a bit of modification underneath, and possibly to the side of the LD.  I was thinking the flexible joint woud allow raising the whole dump pipe assembly under the frame while not in use, then some sort of cable or strap to lower when dumping.  To make it cleaner, you might have to put some sort of small access door similar  in size to the current cover for the flexible hose storage the LD's have now, which you would open to connect to the valves for dumping.  You probably would have to shorten the pipes a bit to tuck everything up inside the chassis.  Certainly would take a bit more engineering to develop a clean working solution.  I don't think it's impossible - but it is probably going to take more work.
Ken, I commend you for your creativity; however, considering the complexity of fixing this potential problem, maybe some sort of reminder on the dash would help. 

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #19
I really like the aforementioned idea of a folding drain valve system. It's better than my pump idea because it still ultimately relies on good old fashioned gravity. I have to wonder if this isn't a huge money making opportunity for some engineering type that could change the way RVs are built.
Another and maybe even simpler option could be a removable drain valve system that "plugs in" to the holding tanks. The only down side would be that you'd need a shut off valve up underneath the RV that would be difficult to access and some type of automated electric valve might be necessary which kind of defeats the whole KISS principle that I at least try to live by.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #20
I don't see my Ford Truck Dealership stopping doing things with Ford  RV's.   As I looked over their lot I saw many different RV's.   Seems to me the problem is training.   It's almost free money to the dealership.    I know it's not costing anywhere near $50 to change my oil and $300 to change the brake fluid.   On top of that they do that 'safe' inspection to generate more income.   This dealership has two shifts working 6 days a week.  Lot covers a city square block.  Back half of lot covered with all sort of trucks and RV's.    I'm sure they will want my business for the foreseeable future.  Locally there are at least four maybe five RV dealerships that I'm sure have Ford trained folk on staff.   If they don''t want my money I'll just move along.

As to the holding tank valves --  I have no idea how they 'hurt' the valves.    To get to the valve you'd have to roll over something with the back tires.    It would seem to me you'd have some sort of warning at that point.     Backing out of a mechanic pit or off of a lift should be clear of all obstructions.   Again its a mystery to me.......  

glen

personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #21
"I know it's not costing anywhere near $50 to change my oil..."
---
Just an oil and filter change at the Ford truck center in my area costs at least $100. (The per hour labor charge is over $200.) It also requires a half hour drive across town, a one-two hour wait, and another half hour drive back. Uh uh.

If I'm having other services done, I will have an oil and filter change at the same time if it's timely, but otherwise, it's a $40 job with oil and filter from Walmart and 45 minutes or so of time overall. (I'm not as fast as I used to be!)

This area does have curbside oil recycling; if this service were not available, I would have to either have the service done at the shop or take the jugs and filter to the hazardous waste station. But, as long as the jugs are picked up and I can still get under the rig, I'll do the job myself.  ;)

YMMV, as always.
2003 TK has a new home

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #22
Good for you, Joan! 👍👍
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #23
When on an extended road trip, oil changes can be a challenge. 

When traveling recently in the mid-west and needing an oil change I phoned  a Jiffy-Lube nearby.

Jiffy-Lube advised me that they change oil in box trucks all the time, and a Ford E450 was not problem if the truck was not over 30' or so.

The service bay looked tight, but our 27' RB fit right in.  I did tuck the side mirror arms in.

 We requested and were allowed to stay in the LD while they performed the service.  It was the only way we were doing the service during the C-19.

20 minutes we were out with a complete oil/filter change, tires and all other fluids checked and filled for a few bucks over $125.00.  This also included a new air-filter.

We have NO affiliation with Jiffy-Lube at all, but I can tell you they were life savers.

Just our experience to share.

Cheers!

Tony R (aka codefour)
Tony R
2010 LD RB - Sold to another happy LD Family

Re: Oil and brake fluid replacement/Damaged Holding Tank Valves
Reply #24

Jiffy-Lube advised me that they change oil in box trucks all the time, and a Ford E450 was not problem if the truck was not over 30' or so.
.We requested and were allowed to stay in the LD while they performed the service.  It was the only way we were doing the service during the C-19.
20 minutes we were out with a complete oil/filter change, tires and all other fluids checked and filled for a few bucks over $125.00.  This also included a new air-filter.
We have NO affiliation with Jiffy-Lube at all, but I can tell you they were life savers.

When using any quickie oil change outfit, it pays to check the fill level and to make sure the oil plug is tight, plus checking any other work they did.
I have heard of so many problems, including a friend whose engine blew when the loose oil pan bolt fell out.
Another had a permanent oil leak from the overtightened and stripped oil pan bolt. Others have had the engine over or underfilled with oil. The list goes on.
The employees are not professionally trained mechanics, to be sure the work was done properly, you need to verify their work, YMMV.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze