12v refrigerators....? November 09, 2020, 01:12:53 pm New to me... I see on the internet that 12v refrigerators are becoming more popular and beginning to replace the "old style"gas/electric. On the Winnebago site they are even being put in small trailers that come with one battery (?) as a 10 cubic foot model. The "old style" is available as an option in an 8 foot the Micro Minnie. I've heard speculation that the 8 foot was in short supply so maybe that is a factor.This 12v refrigerator appears to be a superior type assuming you have the battery bank for it, are plugged in, and/or have an adequate solar system. One issue I see coming for the camper with no outside power source is to have the battery run down too far to operate the slide when they are ready to leave their site..... Frank 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #1 – November 09, 2020, 01:29:02 pm Hi Frank; Like the levelers, the engine should be running, to operate the slides both in and out. The diode isolater or relay option that LDuses now, separates the chassis engine battery from the house batteries when camped. I suspect the best option with a compressor type 12v. refrigerator is a Lithium house battery(s), and lots of solar. Solar is a lot less expensive now than it was 20 years ago when I bought my first panels. 300-500 watts would be my choice now. Depending on suitable roof space. RonB 2 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #2 – November 09, 2020, 03:21:51 pm Friend of mine bought a new class c this summer, all the bells and whistles including the 12V compressor frig. His battery's will not hold it over night and he has done nothing but cuss it ever since. He has one solar panel and it won't keep up. It doesn't have a control switch so he has to pull the fuse to turn it off, more cussing. It makes me feel real good that we are old school. There would have to be a very convincing argument to get me to change.Jon 2 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #3 – November 09, 2020, 03:42:42 pm One needs to consider their camping style before replacing their propane refrigerator with an all-electric model.Do you boondock or dry camp a lot or usually stay in parks with electric hookups? We recently camped friends whose RV has a residential refrigerator and they cannot dry camp for more than a day without running their generator to keep the battery charged. That could be changed if the roof has enough room for the amount of extra panels needed to power the refrigerator. I have no idea how many watts of solar panels a residential refrigerator would require but it must be a goodly amount.Does your RV's roof have room for several more solar panels? The low winter sun, with its short days, has less potential solar power available and extra panels should be installed to cover the lack of available power. A good size battery pack is also needed to cover the days when the sun doesn't shine. Last summer, trying to camp in an isolated manner, we took an ice chest to expand the amount of food carried, limiting the times we needed to go into stores. While it did extend the time between shopping trips, it was a pain to deal with the ice that needed daily draining and replenishing every two to three days. It required buying ice and having to go into a store for more ice, negating much of the advantage of carrying an ice chestEarlier this year, forum member Tim (T&F) bought a 52-qt portable electric cooler to extend their camping time before needing to shop. This approached looked appealing after dealing with an ice chest for a month, so we bought a smaller, 40-qt electric, compressor cooler, one that would fit between the driver and passenger seat, where is stored when parked. It has been used a few times now and like the ease of using it and the lack of water damaged fruits and veggies. We recently spent a week at the beach and the LD's 500-watts of solar handled the extra power needs fine, the next test will be soon when we head out for over two weeks, it will be a test to find out if the short days and weak sun will continue to produce enough power. While the cooler will easily achieve freezing temps, we are keeping it in the 38-40 degree range, using it for produce, not frozen foods.The summer will be another challenge, with the high ambient heat, the cooler will use a lot more power, it should be offset by the long days of solar production. Problems could arise if there are several days of overcast weather like we experienced last summer in the Sierras when the extensive thunderstorms set the mountains of the West on fire. Not being sure on how practical this approach is, we bought a cooler less expensive than the Dometic or ARB refrigerators.The biggest noticeable difference is the cooler's walls are thinner, with less insulation, wrapping the electric refrigerator with another layer of insulation is planned. For the price, this extra effort is worth it. We'll see how durable this cooler is.Amazon.com : Massimo E-Kooler Electric Fridge Cooler 12v DC AC Portable...Always experimenting.Larry 3 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #4 – November 09, 2020, 07:49:12 pm Quote from: Larry W - November 09, 2020, 03:42:42 pmNot being sure on how practical this approach is, we bought a cooler less expensive than the Dometic or ARB refrigerators.The biggest noticeable difference is the cooler's walls are thinner, with less insulation, wrapping the electric refrigerator with another layer of insulation is planned. For the price, this extra effort is worth it. We'll see how durable this cooler is.Amazon.com : Massimo E-Kooler Electric Fridge Cooler 12v DC AC Portable...Always experimenting.LarryAccording to the seller Massimo Motor Sports the E-Kooler pulls 34-38 watts when running. The math says a topped out set of LD AGM's at 50% use (110 AH) gives 1320 useful battery watts. 1320/38 = about 35 hours of run time. glen 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #5 – November 09, 2020, 08:31:05 pm One of my neighbors with a late model DRV fiver and a residential refrigerator had 660 watts of solar with three 100W Battle Born LiFePO4 batteries installed. First trip out boondocking, he found that the system barely kept up with the fridge alone so he had an addition 990 watts of panels and a fourth Battle Born installed. He says it's just about right now.Steve 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #6 – November 09, 2020, 08:54:05 pm That’s a lot of money to spend on a fridge. What’s the advantage? 2 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #7 – November 09, 2020, 09:36:58 pm Steve is probably referring to a regular residential 110v refrigerator . I'm referring to (see first post) a 12v type which I found out is becoming more popular in rvs now. One downside is they are only efficient up to 10 cf. But, they will draw a lot less power then a residential type. They are the future.... in rigs that have the reserve power and don't need more then 10cf. 2 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #8 – November 10, 2020, 12:31:09 am Frank makes an important distinction: residential 120 V fridges are not terribly well suited to RV use, compared to 12 V compressor fridges such as those made by Vitrifrigo, Novakool and others in the RV and marine market. A setup such as Steve describes, where his neighbor needed more than 1,600 watts of solar panels and 500 amp hours of batteries just to keep his residential fridge going, is ridiculous. (Unless maybe it's some gigantic 15 cu. ft. model with and ice maker and a 28" TV screen built into the door!) 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #9 – November 10, 2020, 01:06:44 am I have an idea (no charge for it) for the manufactures of big rigs who don't feel 10 cf is big enough for their unit. Put in two, maybe side by side, and there will be far less power required then for one large residential type. Plus, the owner will have the option of just using one at times if that is all the room they need. You get a total of 20 cf with probably little or no penalty in total space used. Frank 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #10 – November 10, 2020, 06:55:45 am I like the keep it simple method. To me the propane/120v fridge is perfect. When boondocking, or simply being without 120v hook up I don't need one more item using my batteries. The fridge would be the largest drawing item for us. Our rig did not come with a generator. 3 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #11 – November 10, 2020, 08:41:43 am "How much propane does the refrigerator use?" is a question that comes up periodically. Some years ago, I posted this information; post redux:"The answer to how much propane does the refrigerator use from an RV tech was, “so *if* the burner was running full time, you would burn about 1 pound per 14.5 hours."I checked this response with Al Cohoe, (at the time) chair of the RV Tech program at Okanagan College; his comments: “His answer is close - it will actually use considerably less than he is mentioning. That is based on use while the actual burner is fired up. The burner will only be on when it is asking for more cold. The higher the setting the more hours per day it would run, as well as the more warm food placed inside, etc.” The refrigerator's use of propane is very thrifty compared to the furnace, which sucks LPG at a fast clip and blows about 60% of the generated heat outside. YMMV, as ever. 4 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #12 – November 10, 2020, 12:28:06 pm Quote from: colddog - November 09, 2020, 07:49:12 pmAccording to the seller Massimo Motor Sports the E-Kooler pulls 34-38 watts when running. The math says a topped out set of LD AGM's at 50% use (110 AH) gives 1320 useful battery watts. 1320/38 = about 35 hours of run time. The cooler uses around 4-amps when it is running, depending on the set temperature, it is not running most of the time.Naturally, the colder the set temp, the more power used. We keep it set at 38-40 degrees, it is primarily used for storing produce, I rarely notice it running. The real test will be next summer.Wish I had a recording watt-meter to determine the actual power usage, the number will change according to the ambient and set temperatures. Many owners of electric coolers have insulated covers to reduce the run time and save battery power.My brother has used a Dometic electric cooler for several years, kept in the rear of his Tacoma pickup, power by a roof-mounted 100-watt panel and a 12-volt deep cycle battery. His cooler has a quilted insulated cover.Larry 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #13 – November 10, 2020, 12:48:59 pm Quote from: HiLola - November 09, 2020, 08:54:05 pmThat’s a lot of money to spend on a fridge. What’s the advantage?There is a trend among big Class A and DPs to have residential refrigerators and not having on-board propane, for safety reasons maybe? The lack of propane requires other sources of power to be used for refrigeration, water and space heating, diesel boilers are common, along with electric heat.This limits how much time can be spent dry camping unless the rig's roof is covered in solar panels or the generator is run daily. Most of these rigs are rarely are found outside of parks with hookups.For rigs like ours, switching to an all-electric refrigerator will also require added solar panels and some generator time during the winter or anytime with extended cloud cover.Our LD's propane refrigerator will continue to be the heavy lifter, storing most of the refrigerated foods and all of the frozen, the electric cooler is supplemental, used primarily for longer trips.Larry 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #14 – November 10, 2020, 01:23:40 pm My two cents worth. 1) I would not have a battery-powered or 120v only refer. Too limiting. Propane works just fine for us.2) You can find several how-tos on Youtube to make or exceed the fabled and over-priced Yeti.We made it three days in a $6 styrofoam cooler in warm weather. Solid ice blocks always work better than crushed. 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #15 – November 11, 2020, 10:03:07 am Quote from: Larry W - November 10, 2020, 12:48:59 pmThere is a trend among big Class A and DPs to have residential refrigerators and not having on-board propane, for safety reasons maybe? LarryA tad off topic but ..... I'm always amazed at what people pick and choose to be afraid of. A tank of propane is a safety hazard but a tank of diesel or gas is just if not more of a safety hazard. Just saying.......glen 3 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #16 – November 11, 2020, 12:27:06 pm Quote from: colddog - November 11, 2020, 10:03:07 amA tad off topic but ..... I'm always amazed at what people pick and choose to be afraid of. A tank of propane is a safety hazard but a tank of diesel or gas is just if not more of a safety hazard. Just saying.......Humans are poor at estimating actual risk, our emotions get in the way. Driving to the airport isn't a problem, it's the flying that scares people, even if flying is much safer than driving the freeways. I have no issues if RV manufacturers insist on removing the propane systems, it means fewer big rigs in the dry campgrounds.The downside is that your friends who buy such rigs cannot boondock for more than a day or so without hours of generator time.We keep our propane refrigerator, it works even if the sun doesn't shine for days and it never needs the generator .Larry 4 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #17 – November 11, 2020, 03:52:45 pm Quote from: Larry W - November 11, 2020, 12:27:06 pmI have no issues if RV manufacturers insist on removing the propane systems, it means fewer big rigs in the dry campgrounds.I hate to say it (I should say I hate to see it), but what we see is the newer large class As running their generator 24 hrs a day. Luckily the ones I have seen are quieter generators so it is a low hum that you don't hear if you park further away (but can hear if you walk within 100 feet or so).So residential refrigerators, laundry washer/dryers, multiple TVs, likely no solar, but a generator keeps it all running just fine.Jane
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #18 – November 11, 2020, 05:48:52 pm Quote from: Andy Baird - November 10, 2020, 12:31:09 amFrank makes an important distinction: residential 120 V fridges are not terribly well suited to RV use, compared to 12 V compressor fridges such as those made by Vitrifrigo, Novakool and others in the RV and marine market. A setup such as Steve describes, where his neighbor needed more than 1,600 watts of solar panels and 500 amp hours of batteries just to keep his residential fridge going, is ridiculous. (Unless maybe it's some gigantic 15 cu. ft. model with and ice maker and a 28" TV screen built into the door!)From personal experienceWe had replaced our Dometic 2-way with a residential 120V fridge (counter depth French door) in our diesel pusher. We had it set up to run off inverter when not on shore power, and we had no solar, just roughly 775 AH of batteries (3 8D AGMs). We didn't boondock, so this setup worked just fine. I know some friends have "done the math" on their DPs with residential fridges, and none have had an issue with boondocking as long as they have solar and the occasional opportunity to run a generator.We absolutely loved having a residential fridge in the coach. Much more stable temperatures, significantly greater capacity. Ice cream that stayed nice and frozen. No manual defrost. We still had LP in the coach for the Gaggenau cooktop and our outdoor grill line. In a smaller RV the 12V compressor fridges, which are also used in the marine industry, make more sense given the battery capacity, but in a larger RV a residential fridge works very well. And let's please keep this topic to refrigerators. A couple of comments are veering too far off topic.
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #19 – November 12, 2020, 01:21:05 pm Thanks for giving us a firsthand perspective, Michelle. I think I fell into the trap of eating RVs with small RVs of the type most of us own. Also, I have a personal bias in favor of boondocking without a generator, which creeps into my posts at times. :-)So let me revise what I said. For small RVs such as our Lazy Dazes or my Airstream, and for people who like to boondock, the likely choice in refrigerators is between those that use propane (or 120 VAC when available); those that use 12 VDC (or 120 VAC when available); and residential fridges that use 120VAC only.For the folks I just described, 12 VDC refrigerators such as those made by Vitrifrigo and Novakool are probably better suited than 120 V-only residential fridges--if one has ample battery and solar capacity. The advantages of a setup with a 12 VDC/120 VAC fridge is that it uses a renewable resource (sunlight), thus substantially cutting down on the need for propane; it's not sensitive to being off-level; and it's extremely unlikely to catch fire. The drawback is that the cost of the solar panels and batteries needed to keep one of these going overnight and through cloudy days is substantial. (And of course there's the cost of installing the fridge itself, unless you do it yourself.)A propane-powered fridge has one huge advantage: it comes with the rig, so there's no extra cost and no work involved in using it. In addition, it doesn't require adding solar panels and batteries, nor does it require running the generator. :-) That's why most RVers stick with the "tried and true" propane fridge. 5 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #20 – November 12, 2020, 02:13:05 pm I'll point out one other minor advantage for the 12v that only affects a few.... they are not affected by altitude. And if Winnebago should take my idea and put two 12 volts in a big rig.... set them up so they are together and the doors open opposite . This would give the appearance of it being one refrigerator . Frank 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #21 – November 17, 2020, 01:50:44 am We had the cheaper non compressor 12 volt cooler. The temperature was relative to ambient, I think cooling was always on if the cooler was running. We used it for veggies etc. for a few days after buying to much food to want to stuff into the refrigerator. I often unplugged it in the evening not liking the fan noise. It would be cold enough overnight and solar power would run it through the day. I thought the fan was getting louder so I replaced it. Soon after I bought another RV with a larger refrigerator!
New JC Refrigeration 12V HVAC Conversion Reply #22 – December 03, 2020, 02:34:26 pm My Dometic absorption system crapped out when we had a 9deg cold snap a few weeks ago here in Denver; I lost about $100 worth of frozen meat/seafood :-(I remember coming across this JC Refrigeration upgrade kit and went ahead and did the 12V HVAC conversion. I've had it in for about a week (w/ electric hookups) and so far it's been incredible; the thing is really efficient too. Keeps the temp in a very reliably narrow and food safe range for both fridge and freezer. It draws only 7.5A and 90w and is very quiet (can only hear the compressor when I'm sitting next to the fridge).I haven't yet had a chance to test it out on solar/battery exclusively but my spring project is a solar upgrade so I can get it running for boondocking.Dometic 2652 Series Hvac 12/24V 7.5A 90W @ 12V ( F ) | JC RefrigerationIn total I think I spent ~$800 total, which is pricey, but being able to keep the original box made life a lot easier.
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #23 – December 04, 2020, 08:40:35 am It draws only 7.5A 7.5 is going to require some serious solar 1 Likes
Re: 12v refrigerators....? Reply #24 – December 04, 2020, 09:33:46 am Yeah, what Don said... Drawing 90 watts means 2100 watt-hours of draw per day. My 5 solar panels can deliver something approaching 1800 to 2000 watt-hours on a good summer day. In the winter, I get much less. So, with 5 solar panels, I do not have enough solar to power just this one appliance, much less a TV, computer, BiPap, lights, and DVR.Now, batteries... Drawing 90 watts means a daily draw of about 108 amp-hours. Given that batteries are damaged by repeatedly drawing to 50%, you would need more than 220 amp-hours of battery power just to power the refrigerator.If the 90 watt draw is only when the unit running, rather than daily average, the daily draw would be some smaller number. Even so, I doubt very much that I could power it with my system.Ken F in NM 3 Likes
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