Log In | Register
Skip to main content
Topic: Newbie to Lazy Daze (Read 1494 times) previous topic - next topic
0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #25 –
I've seen those 3- and 4-way butt splices, and there are times when I could have used them, but I was always put off by the fact that the junction point is not insulated (see photo).

So when I need to make a 3-way connection, I step up to the next larger size butt connector (from pink to blue, or from blue to yellow) and crimp two wires into one end. Then I strip the third wire twice as far as usual, fold the stripped portion back over itself to make it bulkier, and crimp that into the other end. This may be inelegant, but it works and provides a completely insulated connection.

This method is easier with FTZ's step-down butts. These look like regular butt splices, but take a different range of wire gauges in each end. They're available in 22-18 x 16-14, 16-14 x 12-10, and 12-10 x 8 gauge. They're pricey, though--a buck apiece or more. But I split an order with a friend, so I could keep some on hand.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #26 –
ABYC?  Oh my, a new rabbit hole I never heard of!
American Boat and Yacht Council , Another great thing about the FOLD.  :)
Marine-grade tinned wire?  Will have to look into that.
Joel
 
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
 
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #27 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 
ABYC?  Oh my, a new rabbit hole I never heard of!
American Boat and Yacht Council , Another great thing about the FOLD. 

Joel, for your next trip to the Morro Bay GTG, you can join up. Ahoy, matey!

Morro Bay Yacht Club | 541 Embarcadero, Morro Bay, CA 93442 • (805) 772-3981
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #28 –
Quote from: HiLola  - 
Joel, for your next trip to the Morro Bay GTG, you can join up. Ahoy, matey!

Morro Bay Yacht Club | 541 Embarcadero, Morro Bay, CA 93442 • (805) 772-3981
I may go for this one and see if they have reciprocity:  Quartzite Yacht Club
But I don't think they're in the same sphere as the ABYC.
I think I need to look into marine-tinned wire before I build my first ham radio system.
If you're going to take the Titanic, you may as well go first class.
joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #29 –
I have made my own 3-ways. That way I can mix sizes. All you need is a short bolt and nut to assemble.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #30 –
Andy - I agree with the exposed part of the 3 & 4 way connectors.  I wondered if some shrink wrap portions could be taken off another item and applied at that junction but likely it would not stick at all.

Ok - this is where I get stuck, and once again this week this is coming up as an issue.
In our 89 TK, there is often 3-4 thick pieces of   wire (likely 12 gauge stranded but I am guessing) that needs to be connected.
The largest butt splices I have found are 10-12.
But I need to put 2 of the 12 gauge wires in each end. 
Examples (what I am doing this week)
Light middle of back lounge area ceiling has 4 large stranded plus the thin wire from the light - for the white wires.    It has 3 large stranded plus the thin wire from the red/black wires.

This is common in our LD - large numbers of thick wire, connected with a wire nut.

There is no way to make a good connection putting 2 thicker wires into one end of a 10-12 gauge butt splice.  A 10-12 gauge 4 way would work but electrical tape over the raw metal part in the middle would not last long (maybe 5 years).  I don’t have enough experience with the more robust 3M electrical tape that Larry referred to in a another post to know If it would last longer - though it should.

That said, I have been amazed that 30 year old wire nuts have held up very well. Put on properly of course.

I should note that there were no gang boxes anywhere, not even for 120v  (these are rated so that if the wires came undone and rested against the Inside of the box it would not start a fire - whereas if the wire  rested against against wood etc., a fire could start).

I have put in gang boxes for all 120v locations (outlets and where wires are wire nutted together) including when it is inside a wood chase (large area of wood framing). 

I have not yet done that for all 12v connections (I did one place that had many 12v connectors in one spot (the switch at the doorway) because that was vertical and gravity plus bouncing made it more likely to shake loose a wire.

So how do boat people handle spots with wires too big to go into 10-12 butt splices (eg 2 12 gauge wires in each end).  Or is there some secret source for larger ones I have not yet found?

Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #31 –

Jane, isn't there a closed end crimp connector that comes in varying sizes. It's more permanent than a wire nut but would also give the same result. Laze Daze sure likes their red wire nuts. One size fits all.

Amazon.com: 100 PCS Closed End Crimp Terminal, Nylon Wire Connector,...

Jon

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
1994 MB
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #32 –
"So how do boat people handle spots with wires too big to go into 10-12 butt splices (eg 2 12 gauge wires in each end)."

You could solder the wires together prior to connecting with the wire nut, if you are adept at that skill.  ::)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #33 –

Hi Jane;  When I was replacing fixtures in my ceiling I would find Lazy Daze supplied connections of two, sometimes three 12 gauge stranded wires and the fixture maybe a 16 gauge wire joined in a wire nut, then taped with vinyl electrical tape.  I would redo them if I added wires. I usually use a tywrap (trimmed) at the base to keep the wires together, before re-wrapping. This helps later in pulling out the junction without pulling the wire, from the fixture, out of the wire nut.  If the wire nut was too full, I would add a junction wire to the original bundle, about 3-4" long and start another wire nut group. I don't expect to ever have any problems with corrosion, loosening or bad connections.  Extensive wire mods and additions to my old '79 motorhome have been good when talking to the fellow worker I sold my old motorhome to in 2000. It was still on the road at 37 years, the last time I saw it.
   I don't like ring terminals/nuts because they leave metal protusions sticking out that can rub and chafe, although in a wood structure, not so bad. Wire nuts are lumpy too, but plastic.  If I'm really concerned about a connection, I shrink wrap the taped wirenut, pinch the part above the wire nut with pliers while it's hot, and add another tywrap over the shrinked tubing to keep the wire from tearing the tubing.  Like if you were pulling the bundle out of the ceiling for access.
     120 Vac romex should never have a joint not inside a box. Clamps on the wires going in and out of the box. Wirenuts inside the box. In a motorhome I use tape on the wirenuts for moisture protection. I'm 'brutal' with wire nuts. Very ,very tight. There has to be a 'gas tight' deformation of the copper to ensure a lasting low resistance junction. I can't imagine a properly done wirenut ever coming apart. I trust them more than crimped connections.
     Heat shrink tubing is available in two layer versions where the inside layer is 'flowable' to seal better.  Amazon.com: Dual Wall Heat Shrink KIT - 85 Pieces - 3:1 Shrink Ratio - Size...
and you could paint the junction with liquid electrical tape, let it dry, then heatshrink over the glob.      RonB
    I should add that I avoid 'cheap' wire nuts. Some are better than others.

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #34 –
As a general rule and ABYC guidelines wire nuts are never used on boats as they are not sealed connections. Splices also are not used on boats, rather one long run from connection point "A" to connection point "B". When you get into larger diameter cables, lugs are used with high quality shrink tube  used to seal the lug to cable connections.

Obviously most people aren't going to go to that level when making a temporary repair to get home (but should) but for long term success without risk of failure or fire these methods are recommended.

Additionally joining 2-3 wires from different accessories together to get to + or - points is not a good idea as each component needs it's own fused protection and isolation from each and every circuit.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #35 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
This helps later in pulling out the junction without pulling the wire, from the fixture, out of the wire nut.  If the wire nut was too full, I would add a junction wire to the original bundle, about 3-4" long and start another wire nut group. I don't expect to ever have any problems with corrosion, loosening or bad connections.  I can't imagine a properly done wirenut ever coming apart.       RonB
When I added my Weboost to the lite outside the closet I ended up connecting to the original with a length of wire and then added the wires I needed.  The wires were too short coming out of ceiling.  I have faith in wire nuts. I was an Electrician for 13 years and got really good at it. They have stay on in cars for as long as I had the car, some over 10 years.  I also got good at crimp on connectors.  We use to use wire nuts on motors in an industrial environment.   In boats corrosion is an issue, so I can see that.
Steve and Jill, Steve posting
1999 26.5 Mid-Bath
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #36 –
Jon - those are rated for up to 12 gauge.  It doesn’t say how many (eg typically wire nuts say min 2 14 gauge and max 3 10 gauge - I made that up but it gives you an idea).
I am suspicious this is designed to take one wire only since it is called a terminal (eg terminates the line): 
I looked at the company for more information or if there were ones that took larger wire but I didnt see anything.
I would need ones that stated that they took 3 (and ones for 4) 12 gauge wires (equivalent to the yellow and red wire nuts).

Lazybones - it is the shrink wrapping I am looking for - protects any bits of wire that might be exposed.  I agree with Ron, a good solid connection can be made with soldering, crimping, or twisting as long as it is done right.  Since my hand tighten often has to be undone with a wrench by much younger men, I know my Twist  is a very secure connection (I twist it till it can’t move anymore).

Wiley - that makes sense for a more robust electrical layout.  And moisture protection is critical in a boat (though an RV that can get leaks is close). However Lazydaze didn’t do a one wire to one connection (I honestly don’t know why they did what they did in some areas) - they tended to do whatever the workers were used to with no set format for people to follow and more along house wiring techniques.

Ron - I agree.  I was shocked to see not only no Gangboxes for our 120V but also not securely fastened (outlet fastened to cover, cover fastened to ceiling - not outlet securely fastened to a solid part of the LD).  It sounds like newer LDs did Use gangboxes  which is nice to know.  In our 89 they did fasten wire down at the normal household intervals.

I had seen the sheathes but have not used them.  The liquid electrical tape sounds good - I am assuming this does not dry up but stays flexible forever? Putting some of this inside the wire nut and down onto the wire would give a good watertight seal.  West marine locally was out but Home Depot has it and even has a spray on product. 

Thanks everyone for the info.
Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #37 –
I should add I did a search for 8 gauge butt splices - some were really 18, but there was some 8 gauge but I didn’t see any shrink ones.
Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #38 –
Steve and Jill,
IMO we also need to be concerned about moisture/water in our LDs.  Electrical is located in the ceiling and walls and that is where leaks happen.  By the time anyone sees a leak there has been much more water in the LD structure (eg water gets into the roof or walls and it takes more water to come out into the LD, so often water has been coming in at lower amounts for a while.
A reason we should all do regular inspections of our LDs and also our sticks and bricks homes.
Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #39 –
Jane and Scott
Understood.....however, rv's are more similar to boats than houses on wiring and standards as houses are not subject to constant movement (except in earthquakes or tornadoes) likes rv's and boats are and on the contrary, I've seen many rv's when taken apart that have more water damage inside than most boats I restore on the inside. Home depot or big box store wiring and supplies are best left for houses. Generally the wiring and supplies purchased there are not tinned, have thinner sheathing and are generally purchased and used under/oversized to match the current flow requirements and heat ratings for the length of run and component specs that are required. I have seen rv's, boats, cars and planes burnt to the ground due to inaccurate wiring and/or connector selection. Just be cautious when taking on a wiring repair or replacement by only using the appropriate grade of material and sealing protection.  😊
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #40 –
Wiley,
I agree RVs are closer to boats than houses.
And I consider the entire RV a wet zone between potential outside leaks and spills on the inside.
Regular Preventative maintenance on the coach as well as the chassis makes a difference.
 
I would love to take an RV and strip it all they way down and redo it - the way I want it to be but that doesn’t look like it is in the plans at all, at least for 10 years.

Andy, you said you redid your wiring.  I know you redid your power center, did you redo wiring throughout?  Ripping up walls or fishing wires?  Only 120V or 12v also?
Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #41 –
When connecting multiple wires together, I prefer to use a marine terminal block, with each wire having its own crimped fitting.
Many terminal blocks have plastic covers to protect against shorting. Check with several marine suppliers, there are many variations of terminal blocks.
Terminal Blocks | Bus Bars | Studs | Marine Grade | New Wire Marine

IMO, you can not go wrong using marine-grade electrical components, 95% of my electrical jobs have used marine grade parts, if it is good enough to withstand a saltwater environment, it will work great in a motorhome.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #42 –

I had plenty of experience soldering in non-RV/non-boating situations, so I was initially inclined to go that route. But ABYC recommends against soldering connections on boats, and their reasoning applies equally to RVs or any mobile application. The reason is that solder stiffens the end of the wire, and that can lead to metal fatigue and breakage when there's vibration and flexing. They recommend crimped connections.

For large gauge wire, big crimp sleeves are available. These Ancor heavy-duty butts are available in sizes from AWG 8 to AWG 2/0. (I use FTZ "Power Splice" butts, which I believe are heavier-duty than the Ancor ones, but I can't find them on Fisheries' website at the moment. However, they are available on eBay.

Of course you'll also need big lugs. I use FTZ power lugs, which are heavy-gauge plated copper. Don't make the mistake of using cheaper "battery lugs," which are less durable.

For large wire gauges, you will need a bigger crimper. There are three ways to go. In order of increasing cost, they are hammer crimpers, hydraulic crimpers, and long-handled compound crimpers. Hammer crimpers don't do the best job, but they're cheap--twenty bucks or so. They can be dangerous if you don't keep both hands clear! I saw Mike Sylvester, a very experienced technician, go to the hospital after crushing a finger using one of these. If you must use one, get one that can be screwed down to a board that you can stand on, or mounted to a workbench.

I don't have experience with hydraulic crimpers. I've read that there are some bad ones out there--bad meaning the dies are the wrong sizes--but that's all I know. Hopefully somebody here has experience with this type, and can recommend a good one.

Because I have had to work with cables up to 4/0 in the past, I use an FTZ 94284 "Correct Crimp" compound crimper. It has handles about 18" long--believe me, for large wire gauges you need all the leverage you can get! It handles wire gauges from AWG 6 up to 4/0. It sells for about $150, and believe it or not, that is about the least expensive compound crimper you can find for these large wire gauges. $300 and up is more typical.

If you want to know about connections from A to Z, I highly recommend two articles on the Marine How To website. The first, "Marine Wire Termination," covers smaller, everyday crimping. The second, "Making Your Own Battery Cables," covers the big stuff. The writer, Rod Collins, is an ABYC Certified Marine Electrical Systems Specialist (whew) of long experience, and the whole site is full of solid, authoritative information.

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #43 –
Larry,
Bus bars on 120 V absolutely.
However, do you do that with 12v also?  That is where I see the multiple wires.  It means making a hole in the ceilings / walls (at lights/fans etc.) to contain the box with the bus bar and create enough room in the opening to secure that box solidly to the structure (e.g. stud or plywood).  Then cover the space back up (including access to that box).

Andy, that would work with the spots with multiple wires, adding a heat shrink sheath on top.  Thanks.

Jane


Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #44 –
I should add a ps, that I need to join a group that gives me access to the ABYC codes, that information would give clear guidelines.
The one site I found didn't have anything like an associates membership, their least costly one was for professionals who worked on boats.
Jane
Jane & Scott
Currently have a 1989 TK  LD we did a lot of upgrades on.
Bigfoot 25RQ Twin on order with early summer 2024 ETA

Our smartphone autocorrects into very poor English.
 We disclaim the illusion of ignorance this creates as we have enough ignorance we rightly claim.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #45 –
You can get an ABYC wiring codes guide through any West Marine or thru Ancor Marine via their websites. A hard copy guide can be purchased through either outlet.
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #46 –
"Andy, you said you redid your wiring. I know you redid your power center, did you redo wiring throughout? Ripping up walls or fishing wires? Only 120V or 12v also?"

I've redone wiring on three rigs to date: my 2003 Lazy Daze midbath, my 2017 Airstream 27FB, and my 2014 13' Trillium.

In the LD, I replaced as much of the 120 VAC and 12 VDC wiring as I could get to, but that was probably only about 20%. That included replacing the Romex-type wiring that fed the air conditioner and the microwave. I also replaced the Parallax power center with separate Blue Sea breaker panels for AC and DC circuits. The AC panel was mounted under the counter extension by the sink, and the DC panel was mounted in the lower part of the cabinet between the sink and stove. Having experienced several failures of the power center's automatic transfer switch (ATS), I replaced that with physically locked-out breakers--the top two pairs seen on the AC panel n the photo. A sliding guard prevents activating both at once. Yes, it's no longer automatic--but it's completely reliable.

I also upgraded the batteries (four 125 Ah GPL-31XT Lifeline AGMs) and charger (proSINE 2.0 2,000 W inverter/100 A charger) and added 600 W of solar panels (sacrificing both TV antennas) and Victron solar controller, etc.

I did much the same to the Airstream, but used a pair of Victron 160 Ah LiFePO4 batteries instead of AGMs. I didn't replace much actual wiring, but did the same kind of job of replacing the power center as I'd done on the LD. 600 W of solar on the roof, etc., etc.

In the much smaller Trillium, I installed a Blue Sea panel for AC breakers, but used Blue Sea fuse blocks for the DC wiring. I replaced almost all of the AC and DC wiring, as well completely replacing the propane and water plumbing. (Both water and propane setups were already pretty basic, and I minimized them still further by eliminating the furnace, water heater and water pump. I installed a Wave 3 catalytic heater, and a Whale foot pump for water to the sink.)

The Trillium sports a 160 Ah Victron LiFePO4 battery, Victron solar controller, etc., and a 140 W solar panel that one of these days I'll get around to mounting on the roof, but right now is lying on the ground.

I sincerely hope I never have to do this kind of renovation again. ;-)
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #48 –
"Bus bars on 120 V absolutely. However, do you do that with 12v also?"

Don't know about Larry, but I sure do. My 2003 LD came with a scary blob of a dozen or so assorted-size wires all tied together--they were grounds--which I replaced with a Blue Sea covered busbar. I also use busbars for positive 12 V connections, where appropriate.

Another possibility for multiple-wire connections, if you don't have more than three or four, is a Blue Sea PowerPost.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Newbie to Lazy Daze
Reply #49 –
Quote from: Wiley  - 
Additionally joining 2-3 wires from different accessories together to get to + or - points is not a good idea as each component needs it's own fused protection and isolation from each and every circuit.
Generally speaking, the fuses/breakers are there to protect the wiring, not the components connected to the wire. Some components, like air conditioners, will have a dedicated breaker, but some breakers will have multiple devices connected to them. Those will have their own fuses if protection is required, because the fuse/breaker at the power source will be too large and too slow to protect it.
2005 Jayco 24SS