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Topic: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing (Read 3751 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #75 –
Quote from: Joan  - 
Dana Spicer rear axle differential; I believe that the E-450's differential is a 70?

There are multiple axles used in the E450.
To distinguish between them, find the sheet metal tag, bolted on with the rear of the differential cover's bolts, it has the needed information to determine what axle it is. Some axles will have a printed tag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90o5QtER-FI
The other way to determine the axle is to check your LD's Factory identification plate usually located on the driver's door frame.
Identify Your Ford Truck Axle From The Door Sticker – Blue Oval Trucks

The E450 list includes; Dana 60
Dana 70
Dana 70 Super
Dana 70 HD
Ford 10.5"
D-80

The Dana 60 is a lighter axle with a 9.75" ring gear, it may be more common in older LDs, I have never noticed one before
The Dana 70's and Ford 10.5" are all mostly the same, with 10.5" ring gears.
The Dana 80 is a slightly stronger axle with an 11-1/4" ring gear.

In axles, larger ring gears are usually stronger than smaller ring gears.

Replacing the gears is a fun-filled project.
Axle rebuild-D70 HD | Flickr

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #76 –
Thanks for that! I checked the door sticker on my 2003 (May 2003 chassis manufacture); the axle is listed as "83". Please tell me that that's enough "axle identifier" information so I don't have to crawl under the rig!  ;)
2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #77 –
Quote from: Joan  - 
Thanks for that! I checked the door sticker on my 2003 (May 2003 chassis manufacture); the axle is listed as "83". Please tell me that that's enough "axle identifier" information so I don't have to crawl under the rig!  ;)

Well, I thought the door sticker identifies the type of axle but, checking the Factory Service Manual, it seems that all it does is show the axle ratio and brand, but no specifics on the model. So, to verify, the tag on the axle is where the model is identified.
BTW, our 2003 E450 also shows an 83 for the axle type, it's a Dana 70 HD.


More axle identification.
Differential Identification | West Coast Differentials

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #78 –
"...our 2003 E450 also shows an 83 for the axle type, it's a Dana 70 HD."
----
OK! Thank you, Larry, for that clarification and site link; saved to my link stash! I thought that the axles on our 2003s were the same, but I'm happy not to have to crawl under to find out!  ;)
2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #79 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Well, I thought the door sticker identifies the type of axle but, checking the Factory Service Manual, it seems that all it does is show the axle ratio and brand, but no specifics on the model. So, to verify, the tag on the axle is where the model is identified.
BTW, our 2003 E450 also shows an 83 for the axle type, it's a Dana 70 HD.


More axle identification.
Differential Identification | West Coast Differentials

Larry


Larry,

Where'd you end up getting your factory service manual? I've been meaning to get one for awhile now. Does Ford have them even for their cutaways?
2001 MB
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #80 –
Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 
@rabbitdiesel1 - It's at the repair shop now for some body work, oil change, and to look at the rear axle noise.  I will update this thread when it's all done.

Today, I picked up my MB from the repair place.  The technician felt and heard the noise/vibration.  He removed the drive shaft and inspected the U-Joints.  He could find no problem with either.  He thinks the problem could be an unbalanced drive shaft.  He said that 75% of the motor homes he's worked on have some sort of vibration at various speeds - caused by too much weight on the leaf springs.  He pointed out another Class C in his parking lot with the same issue.  "Whitelk"," Joan", and "L Wade" had made previous comments in this thread regarding out of balanced drive shafts.  The technician suggested that I take my RV to a drive shaft repair place that can remove it, spin it, and measure.  Now for a search for such a place in my area. 
Glenn & Joan Lambert
Redford, MI
2017 27' Mid-Bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #81 –
I suspected the driveshaft but wasn't 100 percent sure. That shouldn't be real expensive to balance. A truck repair shop should know where to get it balanced. Thanks Glenn.

  Lynn
2017 Mid Bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #82 –
Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 
  The technician suggested that I take my RV to a drive shaft repair place that can remove it, spin it, and measure.  Now for a search for such a place in my area.

A nearby driveshaft machine shop that has the space to park your LD, and a mechanic to drop and replace the driveshaft, would be best.
The shops I have used over the years have not had this service, they build and repair driveshafts. Usually, auto shops and individuals bring them defective driveshafts for service. I would check with your local Napa Auto Parts and see if they have a driveshaft shop they work with. Also, check for local truck drive-line shops.
Dropping the two-piece driveshaft takes ten minutes or less, with air tools, Is your tech capable of doing that?
You live near Detroit, there should be a driveshaft shop or two in the vicinity.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #83 –
I live in rural Iowa and have been looking for a drive line shop. Last night the name of a truck shop popped up on my screen, it was 12 miles from my home, they do heavy trucks, semi's and smaller. I called this morning, he said yep, we'll take your drive shaft off, check all the bearings, then send it to a shop that will balance it, they'll send it back the next day, did 5 of them last week, bring it in first thing Monday morning and we'll take a look at it. It's not what you know, it's who you know. I've driven past this shop hundreds of times, never gave it a thought as to what they  repaired.

  Lynn
2017 Mid Bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #84 –
Quote from: rabbitdiesel1  - 
Last night the name of a truck shop popped up on my screen, it was 12 miles from my home
When the student is ready, the teacher will appear

Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #85 –
Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 
Today, I picked up my MB from the repair place.  The technician felt and heard the noise/vibration.  He removed the drive shaft and inspected the U-Joints.  He could find no problem with either.  He thinks the problem could be an unbalanced drive shaft.  He said that 75% of the motor homes he's worked on have some sort of vibration at various speeds - caused by too much weight on the leaf springs.  He pointed out another Class C in his parking lot with the same issue.  "Whitelk"," Joan", and "L Wade" had made previous comments in this thread regarding out of balanced drive shafts.  The technician suggested that I take my RV to a drive shaft repair place that can remove it, spin it, and measure.  Now for a search for such a place in my area. 

Ironically, I got mine back from Ruxor Ford this week too.  Previous Ford dealer that diagnosed the problem sent me to them, since they didn't have lift clearance.

They reluctantly replaced the ring and pinion under warranty. It might have made a slight difference, NOT.

Let me know if the drive shaft balancing makes a difference. My simple brain says it will not do anything either.  Wouldn't driveshaft balance problems be related to RPMs ? not MPHs ?

I honestly didn't think Ford dealers could fix the problem, until it breaks. :o

Just a step in the process
2006 RB
2017 MB
LD alumni
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #86 –
Hi CactusCrew;  Rpm of the engine is changed at the wheel by the transmission.  If the sound was dependent on speed, that's wheel rotation speed. Directly related to output shaft rear bearing of transmission, U joints, drive shafts before and after the center bearing, differential, rear axles and rear wheel bearings.  To save weight the drive shafts are relatively thin wall tubes. A heavy vehicle combined with a powerful V10 engine has been known to twist up shafts. Diesels with more torque would more likely do that. Or they might get stronger shafts.    RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #87 –
Quote from: CactusCrew  - 
Ironically, I got mine back from Ruxor Ford this week too.  Previous Ford dealer that diagnosed the problem sent me to them, since they didn't have lift clearance.

They reluctantly replaced the ring and pinion under warranty. It might have made a slight difference, NOT.

Let me know if the drive shaft balancing makes a difference. My simple brain says it will not do anything either.  Wouldn't driveshaft balance problems be related to RPMs ? not MPHs ?

I honestly didn't think Ford dealers could fix the problem, until it breaks. :o 

 Taking mine in today, I'll let you know towards the end of the week if the driveshaft  is the problem.

 Lynn

Just a step in the process

2017 Mid Bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #89 –
Quote from: CactusCrew  - 
They reluctantly replaced the ring and pinion under warranty. It might have made a slight difference, NOT.

Let me know if the drive shaft balancing makes a difference. My simple brain says it will not do anything either.  Wouldn't driveshaft balance problems be related to RPMs ? not MPHs ?

I honestly didn't think Ford dealers could fix the problem, until it breaks. :o

Driveshaft balance problems are not uncommon in larger vehicles or modified vehicles. Our LDs have deep gears, meaning the driveshaft turns at very high speeds at highway speeds a slight inbalance will show itself at high speeds. The higher the road speed, the faster the driveshaft spins. My 2001 Jeep has deep, 4.56 gears and had driveshaft vibrations that needed attention to the u-joint angles to cure.
I would have had the driveshaft checked before replacing the gears.

Changing the ring and pinion is a very expensive job that really should be left to a shop that does nothing but axels, its a sub-specialty, similar to automatic transmissions. I doubt many Ford dealers have mechanics with extensive axle experience.
Setting the gears is somewhat subjective, the experience of the builder is everything when it comes to quiet operation. A slight misadjustment can lead to noises that have no effect on longevity.

Your LD's noise might last the life of the vehicle before anything breaks.

Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #90 –
Its going to last the life of this Ford, because I don't have the time & patience to repeat this process at numerous specialty shops. 

Thanks for the review of driveshafts, ring & pinion, transmissions, etc ... I posted late last night after a long day at work, even I don't understand what I was saying with the mph vs rpm comment ... my mistake. 

As for the shop that I went to, it wasn't just the average Ford dealer.  My Lazy Daze was probably the smallest vehicle in for service.  It was a heavy truck center and I had to schedule and wait for the specialist availability. 

Sure, some place probably does it better, has more knowledge, etc ... but at this point, I'd rather live with the noise then continue the troubleshooting process.  The LD has more miles between service centers this year, than travelling on vacation !! That's going to change soon  ;D
2006 RB
2017 MB
LD alumni
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #91 –
Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 
The technician suggested that I take my RV to a drive shaft repair place that can remove it, spin it, and measure.  Now for a search for such a place in my area. 

Found a place and dropped it off.  I'll update when I get it back.
Glenn & Joan Lambert
Redford, MI
2017 27' Mid-Bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #92 –
Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 
Found a place and dropped it off.  I'll update when I get it back.

Regarding the driveshaft humming noise.  This is the repair place's determination:

Inspected driveshaft, no issues found. Test drove with Ids, saw and felt shake due to misfire on cylinder 2, 6 and 8. Recommend tune up, spark plugs and coils.

I'm not sure what to do about this.  The RV is not yet three years old and has 31,000 miles and it needs a tune up, coils, and spark plugs?????  I called the Ford Fleet Warranty department to see if this is covered under warranty.  The department is closed due to COVID-19.  Any suggestions?
Glenn & Joan Lambert
Redford, MI
2017 27' Mid-Bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #93 –
I don't know if any of the TSBs for a 2017 Ford E-450 apply to your situation, but you might want to look through this list:

2017 Ford E-450 TSBs | CarComplaints.com

I agree that a three-year-old rig with 31k should NOT need new plugs and coils, but it's certainly possible that the plugs (and/or) coils were defective, or the plugs were not seated and/or torqued properly during manufacture. Larry may respond and offer advice; he is very familiar with the various parts and systems that can (and often do) go south on our rigs.



2003 TK has a new home
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #94 –
Glenn, if it were my truck, I would talk to your servicing Ford dealer. I think you had the rear axle work done there and they then suggested getting the drive shaft balance. Relay what the drive shaft place said or take in the written assessment.

It should be an easy thing for Ford to diagnose and should be covered under either the powertrain or emission control warranty. Just my opinion though.

Steve K.
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #95 –
Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 
Inspected driveshaft, no issues found. Test drove with Ids, saw and felt shake due to misfire on cylinder 2, 6 and 8. Recommend tune up, spark plugs and coils.

I'm not sure what to do about this.  The RV is not yet three years old and has 31,000 miles and it needs a tune up, coils, and spark plugs?????     Any suggestions?

Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 
Inspected driveshaft, no issues found. Test drove with Ids, saw and felt shake due to misfire on cylinder 2, 6 and 8. Recommend tune up, spark plugs and coils.

How was it determined that cylinders 2, 6 and 8 are misfiring? If so, the LD's computer should turn the 'Check Engine' light on.
If so, what are the codes, if you know. They should be, if 2, 6 and 8 are misfiring, P0302, P0306 and P0308.
Determining cylinder misfire and what cylinders are missing, by the seat of your pants, isn't possible. It may not be plugs and coils after all.

It seems improbable that three spark plugs and three separate coils would go bad at once on a low mileage engine.
I suspect something else is failing or is out of adjustment that causes the symptoms.
You need a shop that can put the engine on the scope and scanner and look at the spark patterns, also checking all the various engine sensors, making sure the camshaft sensor is synchronized, something that has caused random misfire for me when working on other vehicles.
BTW, today most cars do not have formal tune-ups, everything is controlled by the computer. Once set at the Factory, there are no adjustments, only replacements.

This is unusual, we see few poorly running V10s here. Sorry your rig is having so many problems.
If your LD is still under warranty, even if the warranty center is closed, I would take it to a Ford dealer and establish a claim, before the warranty ends.
Keep us posted.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #96 –
I just got my 2017 back from the shop. They balanced the drive shaft, it wasn't out much, it still made the hum at 65 mph and over, balancing helped a little. They then put an additive in the rear differential, that pretty much eliminated the hum, I can still here it a little but no much. They said the more you drive it the better it should get, hopefully. At 70 mph I get some vibration up front, I think that's my tires. Total bill was 282.62 $. When I put more miles on I'll let you know how it runs. Here"s the additive they put in.    Trans X Posi-Trac Additive. I hope this helps.

   Lynn
2017 Mid Bath
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #97 –
"They then put an additive in the rear differential."

That's not a new trick! I used an additive in the Detroit Locker differential of my '77 IH Scout, per factory directions.   :o
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #98 –
Thanks "Joan", "Steve K", and "Larry W".  I had talked to the technician regarding the misfiring cylinders.  He said that he drove the RV while it was connected to Ford's IDS (Integrated Diagnostic System) program.  It showed the codes P0302, P0306 and P0308 (and he felt the vibration).  He was surprised that the Check Light didn't come on.  But expects it will sometime in the future.  I told him that if I need the spark plugs replaced so early in the life of the RV, I would prefer to take it to a Ford service center in order to maybe get them replaced under warranty.  He said that is a good idea.  I will be taking the RV there Monday morning.  I don't know if I should explain the whole history of this issue to them and the various diagnoses or just start with the initial symptom: There's a humming sound and vibration between 65-70 mph and let them figure it out.

"Steve K" - The previous Ford service center I used (their solution was to replace the rear axle assembly) has decided to no longer service RVs - even after they ordered the assembly.  So it was never installed.  And none of the other non-Ford service places agree with the rear axle assembly solution.  This new Ford service center I found is 40 minutes away.  The other one was a lot closer.




Glenn & Joan Lambert
Redford, MI
2017 27' Mid-Bath
 
Re: 2017 MB: Strange Noises-Rear Axle Hum- Pinion Bearing
Reply #99 –
Quote from: Glenn Lambert  - 

"Steve K" - The previous Ford service center I used (their solution was to replace the rear axle assembly) has decided to no longer service RVs - even after they ordered the assembly.  So it was never installed.  And none of the other non-Ford service places agree with the rear axle assembly solution.  This new Ford service center I found is 40 minutes away.  The other one was a lot closer.


Sounds familiar ... Ford Service Centers !  The one that is 15 miles away, said they could work on it.  After diagnosing the rear noise problem, "sorry, we can't fit it on our lift in the  shop, here's two we recommend. First one is 20 miles, a heavy truck center, "sorry, no motor homes, maybe take it to a RV dealer".  The one that ultimately replaced the ring and pinion was about 60 miles away.  Total hassle doing anything but routine maintenance on these chassis around here.


2006 RB
2017 MB
LD alumni