Battery Problem -- Need Help!

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January 28, 2020, 08:56:34 pm

My 2017 Mid-Bath is less than three years old. I have AGM batteries. I am camping and have electric. However, suddenly my Lazy Daze read-out panel has my batteries as “weak.” My solar panel has the batteries at around 9 volts. My LED lights are very dim. I now switched my refrigerator onto propane. What is the problem and how do I solve this? I have been running a small Polaris heater for a few hours each day. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Monica

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #1 – January 28, 2020, 09:12:41 pm

Monica - so you are on electric hookup but you’re batteries are being run low.

Questions:
What was the first time you noticed the batteries were low and what was it before then (eg were they high before the camping trip and have gone down each day of the trip, or they were fine yesterday on the trip but went down suddenly overnight).

Are you truly getting electricity into your LD, you’re power center (and then to the batteries)?
I would check that issue first as even with no battery your lights should be strong if you are getting electricity into your coach & power center.
Is your converter/charger running? Is that breaker in your power center turned on?

Having a volt meter can confirm your hookup is giving good voltage. Check the breakers at the pole and at your LD breakers are good.
If you don’t have a volt meter check with the cam host or a fellow camper to see if they can offer help/loan you a volt meter.

Jane

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #2 – January 28, 2020, 09:37:29 pm

Jane,

I hadn’t paid much attention to the displays and although I think the volts may have been slightly lower the last couple of days. I started to have the problems today. I do have electricity and a surge protector. I have a volt meter and it is okay. I don’t know how to tell if my converter is charging. I don’t know how to tell if the breaker in the power center is turned on? How do I tell?
Thanks for your help.

Monica

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #3 – January 29, 2020, 12:59:33 am

If the lights are dim and the solar panel indicates 9-volts, the converter isn’t charging the battery. Normally, even a bad battery will show 12-volts if the converter is doing its job.
The converter’s 120-volt circuit breaker is located in the Power Center, usually the second breaker from the left.
While checking the breaker, see if you can hear the converter humming, it’s located in the bottom half of the Power Center.
The converter should have two plug in fuses on the 12-volt side that need to be checked.
Beyond that, having and knowing how to use a voltmeter would provide more information.

Larry

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #4 – January 29, 2020, 01:28:32 am

Monica,

We have a ‘15 and your power center most likely resembles ours. Here are pics of ours.

Turning the converter/charger breaker off (downward) then on (upward) may help.

If that doesn’t help, perhaps the campground power pedestal is not turned on or the LD power cord is not connected completely to either the pedestal or the rig itself.

Kent

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #5 – January 29, 2020, 04:52:13 am

Monica,
Kent gave you some pictures. What he is showing you is located behind a black (probably plastic) panel. Likely located just inside your entry way (on the "hallway" side), in the general area of your outside battery location (on the outside of the rig).

To check breakers, flip them (one at a time) all the way down, wait a few seconds, then flip the back up (should be strong snap sound/feel when you do this). If the converter/charger one is clearly marked, just do that one and also the main one. You can see in Kent's first picture, they are clearly marked under the breaker which one is what.

As Larry said, the converter/charger can hum (the fan noise), but depending on your model of power center you may / may not hear the hum (some models louder and run all the time, others quieter and go on and off as needed). Off the top of my head, the 75 AMP converter charger runs all the time, the 50 amp does not. You can see in Kent's middle picture this converter charger AMPs are listed.

Basic trouble shooting, start at the shore power post and use your multi-meter to confirm there is 120V power there. Then follow the path of electricity until you get to something that is not working correctly. However... I don't suggest the type of testing I would do unless the person is familiar with voltmeters and both familiar with and comfortable with electricity (including live 30 amp wires).

So, if the breaker reset didn't work and you are not sure if you can hear your converter/charger humming, check that the electricity is getting inside your coach (e.g. thru the surge protector and connection points and thru the power center) by testing an outlet to confirm you have 120V there. Make sure it is an outlet that doesn't have an inverter on it (assuming no whole coach inverter) and you can also flip down (wait a few seconds) then flip back up that outlet breaker just in case.

If the outlet tests at 120V, then something is going on between the power center (where all the breakers and fuses are) and the battery. I don't have the brand power center you have, but if the problem area is there hopefully you can call the technical support department and get some assistance.

If the outlet doesn't test at 120V, then something is going on between the power center and the shore post. I am guessing your surge protector is portable (not an hardwired EMS), and you could take it off to confirm that it is not causing a problem.
As Kent suggested, make sure your electric wire is plugged securely into the RV outlet (you should have the removable cord, not the one that is always attached that the older models have) and into the shore power outlet.
If the outlet still shows no power, I would suggest testing the main breaker in the power center, which means you need to have the knowledge of how to test a breaker (with live 30 amp electricity). I would see if someone else in the park knows how to do this if you are not familiar/comfortable with doing this.

Jane

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #6 – January 29, 2020, 05:04:31 am

Quote from: Larry W - January 29, 2020, 12:59:33 am

The converter should have two plug in fuses on the 12-volt side that need to be checked.
Larry

Larry,
I initially took (maybe wrongly so) your statement above to mean there were fuses for the converter on the dc side of the panel. However, Kent's pictures didn't show fuses for the converter in his panel and we don't have any (but we have a different brand).

Do you mean a fuse/breaker between the power center & the battery that might need checking?
Or fuses on the converter itself?
Or maybe the mystery breakers/fuses discussed in another thread?
Or is it fuses in the DC part of the panel that maybe didn't show in Kent's picture.

Curious minds want to know.

Jane

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #7 – January 29, 2020, 10:58:54 am

Sorry that I didn’t make myself clear. I’ve been plugged into electric for six days and all electric appliances continue to work. There has not been a problem with the AC. The problem is with the battery. It was just yesterday that I noticed the battery having gone down to 9 volts. This is when the LED lights dimmed. This morning I flipped the converter switch off and on. Now I don’t know if the solar or the converter is slowly charging the battery. The readout now is 9.4 volt. The sun is up and I don’t know if it is the solar or the converter that is charging. Neither I nor Calicia Hardin who is with me can hear the fan. The converter owner operation guide states, “The fan turns on automatically when required to cool the electronic components of the converter. The amount of airflow required is necessary to properly cool the converter components and the associated ‘air sound’ generated MAY BE [emphasis added] audible in quiet environments.” Is there anything I can do today to determine whether it is the solar or the converter charging? Thank you for all your help.

Monica

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #8 – January 29, 2020, 11:05:10 am

A minor point regarding converter/charger Hum. In contrast to our previous, 2015 LD TK, I noticed that our 2019 MBhas no converter hum. Per Todd at Lazy Daze, the factory changed converter model to one that doesn’t hum. I did not ask which model year this change took place, however.

Warren

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #9 – January 29, 2020, 11:24:12 am

Monica, you might want to check with the RV park for a reference for a reliable mobile tech or a local RV service place. Without using a voltmeter to test each potential trouble spot and isolate the problem, a solution and fix are guesswork.

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #10 – January 29, 2020, 11:36:58 am

"Now I don't know if the solar or the converter is slowly charging the battery. The readout now is 9.4 volt."

If either the converter or the solar power system were charging, the battery voltage would be well above 12 volts. So you still don't know. I second what others have said: you need a multimeter and somebody who knows their way around RV electrical systems.

Things to keep in mind: even when running on propane, your fridge needs 12 V power for its controller board. You are at a point now where the fridge is likely to stop operating, if it hasn't already. And the longer your batteries stay at 9 V, the more likely they are to be damaged. You need to get this fixed right now.

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #11 – January 29, 2020, 04:22:40 pm

Monica - there are so many things that could be the problem, that is why you are not getting a clear answer.
On shore power or generator you can have absolutely dead batteries and have 12v fixtures working great,
The fact your 12v fixtures are having problems while on shore power indicates there is a not so easy problem.
Again I suggest a call to the manufacturer of your charger/converter technical support department to see why it stopped powering 12v (maybe a broken relay or something else), they may have some trouble shooting you could do on it. However the problem could be wire connections or other things not just the converter/controller box itself.

Depending on how your solar is connected (to the power center or directly to the battery, I don’t know how newer LDs are wired) with good sunlight and no charging you may have a second problem occurring.

As Andy said your batteries at 9v are having serious problems - you might disconnect them to save what is left but they might already be shot

Jane

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #12 – January 29, 2020, 04:43:53 pm

On my last trip to Yosemite, I was dealing with my ageing AGM batteries. To try and resolve the issue while in camp, I turned off the breakers, pulled the fuse to the solar panels at the power center. I ALSO turned off my Battery Cutoff Switch in the battery compartment.

Then I removed the battery chassis ground wire and cleaned the connections. After that, I put the Solar Array fuse back in and turned the breakers in the power center back on. All of a sudden I heard strange beeps coming from the solar display panel and saw lights blinking and odd stuff (I posted this previously at the time it happened).

I was not a “happy camper”. What had I done? Turns out that I had forgotten to turn the cut off switch to the batteries back on. Once I did turn the Red Key back on, everything returned to normal. And the Bluesky read out as normal.

By any chance do you have a battery cut off switch? Is it turned on? Gently pulling on the red key should tell you if it’s on. If it doesn’t come out of the switch, it is on.

Ya never know. Sometimes we get lost in our attempts to resolve issues and forget a step we tried in our efforts.

Good luck.

Kent

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #13 – January 29, 2020, 05:29:14 pm

Another possibility worth mentioning: if battery fluid levels are very low, the batteries may not be capable of accepting a charge (or supplying power). The fact that apparently neither your solar power system nor your converter is charging the batteries is suspicious--it's unlikely that both would fail at the same time. Have you checked the batteries' fluid levels?

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #14 – January 29, 2020, 06:34:15 pm

"Have you checked the batteries' fluid levels?"
----
Monica's 2017 has AGMs.

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #15 – January 29, 2020, 06:42:27 pm

I have an appointment tomorrow at 2:00 PM to have my battery problem checked out. When I told the RV technician the problem, he thought I may need a new converter. So, before I have him just change out the converter, I need some advice on other problems that he could check first. I would like to go in with a list of things for him to check. I would like to sound knowledgeable so that he doesn’t take advantage of me. Again, this is what is going on: My batteries do not charge with being plugged into shore power, solar, or running the generator. However, they did charge when I ran the Ford engine. After about 45 minutes I raised the voltage from 9 to 12. And after 2 hours without using any 12-volt appliances or lights, they are holding at 12 so I am hopeful that my batteries are not fried. Again, any advice that you could give me to have this RV technician check before changing the converter would be most appreciated. I have AGM batteries. My LD is less than 3 years old. Also, how low can an AGM battery go before it is damaged? If the converter does have to be changed, is there another brand recommended or should I get the same that LD installed? They installed the Parallax Power Supply converter. Thank you for any advice.
Monica

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #16 – January 29, 2020, 07:21:02 pm

Thanks for pointing out the AGM-ness of those batteries, Joan!

The odd thing about this scenario is the lack of solar charging.

Yes, signs point to a converter problem, although I'd still want to verify that the converter is actually getting 120 VAC. I do have a fuzzy recollection that I once had a problem similar to this that turned out to be the automatic transfer switch--it wasn't passing either generator or shore power to the converter. The ATS sits on the back of the converter, but it's a separate unit.

I would ask the technician to check out the ATS first. A replacement ATS is only about sixty bucks, and changing it is much less labor-intensive than swapping the three or four hundred dollar Parallax converter box, with all those wires going in and out.

But... the solar charging system has nothing to do with the converter, so it should still be operating. Could it have failed at the same time? Seems like a heck of a coincidence. Monica, have you checked the fuse for the solar charger? It's probably in the converter (see Kent's third photo), and is conspicuously labeled.

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #17 – January 29, 2020, 11:15:10 pm

Monica, I would want the repair place to show me how they figured out what it was. E.g. they can show you that electricity is getting to the converter/charger but not to the battery or into the ATS but not out the back side, etc. Take notes, so you know more about the wiring of your RV for any future problems.

I second Andy, get the repair place to also show why the solar is not working.

3 year seems pretty short for a converter IMO but likely outside of the warranty period.

I personally would not get the same brand but you need to determine your requirements (e.g. use your LD a lot and willing to pay more for a brand/model with more features, or use it less often and not cost effective to get a more expensive brand/model).

Consider smart charging - multiple stage charging (e.g. high charging when the battery is low, normal charging for that last 10% or so, storage/float which keeps the battery topped off but your solar should do this also, and equalization to help prevent stratification and sulfation). One stage can burn up batteries by overcharging them.

The best chargers can be set so the voltage for each stage matches your battery specs this can help lengthen the life of the battery.

However you have to figure out how much you use your LD and batteries and if you want a more expensive charger with more features (long term boondockers prefer this) vs you don't use your LD & batteries as often so it would not be cost effective to get the best features.

Victron has a lot of great features including smart charging and programming in the charging voltages but you pay more for it. Batteries last longer with this set up correctly which if you use your LD a lot might be cost effective.

Progressive is a middle of the road brand and others have reported it fits well into the allotted space (includes smart charging but not the ability to program to your battery specs, they use general numbers). They also have great tech support for any future problems.

Confirm with the tech doing the repairs that all your components will work together well.

Jane

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #18 – January 29, 2020, 11:19:30 pm

Andy, we had very unusual wiring in our LD (original owners immediately replaced power center & the solar was wired directly into the power center - no controller and not attached to the batteries directly). We replaced everything and again didn't match stock LD wiring.

I am guessing there is a standard way, at least in newer LDs, of how they are wired.
I am guessing from what you say, they have the two controller/chargers:
One in/with the power center using electricity from shore/generator and going to the battery.
The other is the solar charger that goes directly to the battery (by passes the power center).

Is that correct?
Jane

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #19 – January 30, 2020, 02:40:43 am

"Is that correct?"

You've got me, Jane. I haven't seen a "modern" LD's electrical system firsthand, so all I know is what I read here and what was in my 2003 midbath before I ripped out everything and replaced it with Victron and Blue Sea components. I believe that they use a Blue Sky 3000i solar charging controller, with its output wired into the power center somehow, but beyond that I'm not sure. No doubt others here can give a better picture of what the factory has done in recent years.

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #20 – January 30, 2020, 04:03:38 am

Thanks Andy.

Anyone - for more recent LDS (e.g. last 10 ish years) do you know exactly where the solar panel is wired into the other components? E.G. The path from the solar panel to the battery goes thru what else (or is it direct)?

Jane

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #21 – January 30, 2020, 09:53:33 am

Monica, make sure that the RV tech checks the (fuses and) wiring connections at the power center terminals (and all other wiring, including connections in the battery box!) for tightness. (S/he should as part of the diagnostic, but...) Whole lotta shakin' goin on in an RV, and wires do loosen.

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #22 – January 30, 2020, 10:45:06 am

Quote from: Jane and Scott - January 30, 2020, 04:03:38 am

Anyone - for more recent LDS (e.g. last 10 ish years) do you know exactly where the solar panel is wired into the other components? E.G. The path from the solar panel to the battery goes thru what else (or is it direct)?

The solar comes from the roof, to the solar controller and then down to where it is connected to the LD's 12-volt electrical system in the Power Center, usually feed through a inline fuse.

Larry

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #23 – January 30, 2020, 10:58:37 am

Before replacing the converter, I suggest call Randy at Best Converters to see what is available in your size converter and advice finding one the is quiet, with a cooling fan that only runs when the unit is hot.
Some converters LD installed in this time period are very noisy, with fans that run anytime 120-volt power is available .
Almost all converters today are 'smart'.

Larry

Re: Battery Problem -- Need Help!

Reply #24 – January 30, 2020, 04:41:16 pm

Update: I had my appointment for my battery problem. When I started to ask the technician to check out some of the points that you all have suggested to me in your posts, they told me that they have no time to do anything else other than change the converter if that is the problem. The technician said he has been in this business for years and knows how to diagnose problems. He checked the converter and said that it needed to be replaced because it is not holding a charge. He said the solar panels are working but that the converter is not storing the charge. He said that batteries generally last three years and that I should think about getting new ones. Then he told me he is not going to do the job and I should go elsewhere. He was upset that I had questioned him. I am in Fruitland Park, Florida, and will be making my way south towards Everglades National Park, stopping at Port St. Lucie. Orlando and Miami should be on the way. Does anyone know an RV person who is knowledgeable in electric and honest and who can help me with this problem? I am really getting desperate. Thank you again for all your help.

Monica

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January 28, 2020, 08:56:34 pm

Reply #1 – January 28, 2020, 09:12:41 pm

Reply #2 – January 28, 2020, 09:37:29 pm

Reply #3 – January 29, 2020, 12:59:33 am

Reply #4 – January 29, 2020, 01:28:32 am

Reply #5 – January 29, 2020, 04:52:13 am

Reply #6 – January 29, 2020, 05:04:31 am

Reply #7 – January 29, 2020, 10:58:54 am

Reply #8 – January 29, 2020, 11:05:10 am

Reply #9 – January 29, 2020, 11:24:12 am

Reply #10 – January 29, 2020, 11:36:58 am

Reply #11 – January 29, 2020, 04:22:40 pm

Reply #12 – January 29, 2020, 04:43:53 pm

Reply #13 – January 29, 2020, 05:29:14 pm

Reply #14 – January 29, 2020, 06:34:15 pm

Reply #15 – January 29, 2020, 06:42:27 pm

Reply #16 – January 29, 2020, 07:21:02 pm

Reply #17 – January 29, 2020, 11:15:10 pm

Reply #18 – January 29, 2020, 11:19:30 pm

Reply #19 – January 30, 2020, 02:40:43 am

Reply #20 – January 30, 2020, 04:03:38 am

Reply #21 – January 30, 2020, 09:53:33 am

Reply #22 – January 30, 2020, 10:45:06 am

Reply #23 – January 30, 2020, 10:58:37 am

Reply #24 – January 30, 2020, 04:41:16 pm

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