Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batteries?

Topic: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batteries? (Read 1395 times) previous topic - next topic

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Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batteries?

Reply #25 – November 18, 2019, 11:44:38 pm

Kent, I agree with Steve S that it might be worth it to check connections as they do corrode over time and then it looks like something it out when there is just not a good connection. Make sure they are securely attached also (battery and power center side).

If that doesn't fix it, then I would vote for the costco batteries.
Make sure AM Solar goes over with you thoroughly, what you would need to do to keep up your new batteries. Ask what upkeep is needed on AGM vs Lithium. They should give you the full information the manufacturer provides as well as their experience.

Jane

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #26 – November 19, 2019, 10:35:59 am

The Vote Is In...and the winner is...Costco...

I had my head, literally, inside the battery bays few a days prior to this trip. Everything is clean as a whistle. The batts take a perfect charge but can’t hold it long. 🤨

I’ll get in there again today and examine all the cable tightness but if they take the initial charge and drain so quickly I’m unclear as to why corroded cables would be the culprit.

Thanks.

Kent

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #27 – November 19, 2019, 11:30:32 am

What is the warranty on the original batteries?

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #28 – November 19, 2019, 01:22:25 pm

Quote from: HiLola - November 19, 2019, 11:30:32 am

What is the warranty on the original batteries?

Kent's batteries are four years old and Lifeline does advertises their AGM have a five year warranty.
Deep Cycle Marine Batteries - Lifeline Batteries
Unfortunately, he does not qualify for replacement, instead for a prorated charge. It isn't going to be much since 80% of he warranty time has expired.
Off to Costco.

Larry

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #29 – November 19, 2019, 01:51:10 pm

Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - November 19, 2019, 10:35:59 am

I’ll get in there again today and examine all the cable tightness but if they take the initial charge and drain so quickly I’m unclear as to why corroded cables would be the culprit.

Kent, haven't been following the thread recently, but with the batteries fully charged, disconnect them, and check them each a couple days later. If they test ok, then reconnect and see how they do in the short term. You may have a phantom parasitic load that needs to be traced before your next step.

Steve

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #30 – November 19, 2019, 02:48:28 pm

Greg, Steve,

I lean toward Larry’s appraisal of my AGMs. LD mentions the batts should last 5-6 years if “properly maintained”. A little too much of this and that and little less sun here and there and I’m afraid I have two nice AGM slices of toast.

No worries. They have served me well and will be recycled with the best of them.

Out for my morning ride in the cool morning air enjoying a nice Cup-O-Coffee and a Hazelnut Danish at Degnan’s. People watching as the crowds thin out.

Life is sweet.

Thanks,

Kent

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #31 – November 19, 2019, 03:34:08 pm

Kent, enjoy a cup (and danish) for me! Are you aware of the incoming winter storm? We are expecting snow tomorrow.

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #32 – November 19, 2019, 03:49:45 pm

Greg,

As I was picking up my second set of Danishes, the clerk said they were closing Tioga Pass tomorrow or the next day and the Valley was expecting snow ☃️ this afternoon.

The CG Host said they had expected snow yesterday. Just another reason I like the 140 to Merced.

Thanks for the heads up.

Kent

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #33 – November 19, 2019, 04:01:18 pm

Hi Kent. I know that you are careful with your batteries. Maybe too careful! Lets say you never discharge them very deeply. The lead surface on your 'ready and waiting' plates will develop some (a thin coat) of sulphate on the surface. Equalization once a month or so is meant to prevent this. I've noticed that after a long time in the driveway, the first few times actually using the batteries, the output voltage will sag quickly, but I keep using them anyway. I also chalked some of this to stratification of the acid in the battery. After a few 'deep' (not actually below 40% left) cycles that the batteries would perk up and act more the way they should. Hey, if you're going to replace them anyway, might be an interesting experiment. You'll find that the Costco batteries are a lot better than you are expecting. Not as durable as the Trojans, maybe, but easily 4 years life at a lot less cost per year. If your present batteries have really lost that much capacity, you'll have way better capacity with the Costco WLA new ones.
The ground wire Lazy Bones was referring to isn't in the battery box. It is attached to the frame below the box and exposed to the road grime, weather and corrosion underneath. High resistance there will prevent proper discharge and charging currents. Voltages might look near normal. Turn on a few lights to get some current flowing, observe your indicated battery voltage, then clip a jumper cable (I know you have a heavy duty set with you. Just the black) to the ground side of the batteries. When you clip onto the ground under the hood of your engine battery, does your indicated voltage go up? If it does, your battery box ground isn't doing its job.
For your upgrade to Lithium....how are you going to protect them from below 32 degree weather, temperatures? RonB

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #34 – November 19, 2019, 05:17:24 pm

"The ground wire Lazy Bones was referring to isn't in the battery box."

Ron

Thank you ever so much for your concise explanation. That was not communicated to me so that I could comprehend it the 1st time around, but remembering back it's precisely on point. At first I wondered how AGM batteries could 'corrode' so now I understand, it was not the battery terminals, but something else.

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #35 – November 20, 2019, 12:38:20 pm

Hi Steve S. I was trying to change the oil in my generator for the first time and was crawling around under the coach with a strong light and noticed my ground wire was not in the best shape. My battery box is next to my entry door (aft) and above the generator. I took the connection apart and cleaned the surface of the frame member, and the wire terminal. Re-assembled it and sprayed it with black paint to seal it from the elements better. Sometimes I use black spray-on undercoat, but the asphalt type is messy to clean up. Now I use a polyurethane spray. Even harder to clean up, but more permanent.
Back to the original topic; Originally I would plug in my coach (in my driveway) a few days a week, but my original primitive converter could potentially overcharge the batteries to their detriment if left too long. After I installed solar with a MPPT more intelligent charge method, I don't plug in unless I need 110VAC. I have a motion sensor outdoor patio light that I leave on. My driveway lights up at night when someone walks by, a little more security, and the solar takes care of that power drain. RonB

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #36 – November 20, 2019, 02:10:30 pm

I climbed under the rig yesterday and R&R’ed the frame battery grounds. They were actually in good shape. Wire brushed everything and all looks pretty clean.

Charged the batts by 7 pm. At 10:30 the controller read 13.1 By 5 am it read 10.8 or thereabouts.

Oh well. Wadda ya goin ya do?

Thanks.

Kent

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #37 – November 20, 2019, 05:16:14 pm

Hi Kent. 10.8 should read 12.8, about 2 volts too low. So 2 + volts per cell, sounds like a shorted cell. You don't have to disconnect anything, but a voltmeter can show you which battery is the unfortunate one. Read a 4.2 volts instead of 6.3. I was between Las Vegas and Zion when that happened to me.(about 2007) St.George had a new Costco and I did a battery swap in the parking lot. I had forgotten my tool box, but had an 8" crescent wrench in an inside drawer. Did the trick with about an hour loss of time and some $$. I used a scouring pad from dish washing to clean the terminals. I'm more careful to have my toolbox with me now. Well stocked I used it for some household chores and forgot to put it back in the motorhome. RonB

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #38 – November 20, 2019, 05:27:24 pm

Ron,
Interesting info. I also try not to let the batteries go too low. We do have a smart 4 stage charger that does equalization regularly.

We are seeing issues where we charge up fine but the battery drops low quicker than in the past (needs a charge after 2 days, not 4 days).
We are a month or so shy of the 2 years into our Costco batteries. Here in Phoenix, because of the heat, we go thru batteries (and tires) quickly – our car batteries last about ½ the time they did in other states, so if you say Costco 6V last 4 years it sounds like we are on track timing wise with the condition of our batteries (I ordered the testers you recommended and just got them).

I just got the battery testers you recommended so I will see what they tell me.
Jane

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #39 – November 20, 2019, 05:38:39 pm

Ron you said that for the Battery ground wires located under the coach...

Quote from: RonB - November 20, 2019, 12:38:20 pm

...I took the connection apart and cleaned the surface of the frame member, and the wire terminal. Re-assembled it and sprayed it with black paint to seal it from the elements better. ... Now I use a polyurethane spray. Even harder to clean up, but more permanent.

Ok, Ron. I gotta ask. You have a connection of the ground wire (coming from the battery) to a connection spot under the coach (likely a screw, maybe a small bus). You clean it, connect it securely, then...
Spray it with black polyurethane paint?
I am struggling to get my head around this, with my background in sticks and bricks spray painting electrical connections is unheard of. However, I understand you do want to prevent exposure to elements and you want something that lasts (e.g. electrical tape would not last very long, a small breaker box might be overkill)...
Often at connection points with screws there is a little bit of bare wire exposed. So to take the place of the wire sheathing that protects the wire you paint it? What about flexing over time, does the paint flex with it (or such a small spot no flexing happens)? Does the paint stick well to the insulation as well as the wire?

Curious minds want to know

Jane

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #40 – November 20, 2019, 06:09:33 pm

The paint is applied after the bare part of the wire is screwed down onto the frame. It is a ground wire. The paint keeps water and other contaminants from getting in to cause corrosion. It is easy to clean off if you later need to redo the connection.
Sticks and brick house wiring should be in dry locations. Your electrical panel is usually wired to a ground nearby outside. Sometimes a water line or separate grounding post driven into the ground. (gas lines are a no-no, most are plastic these days) Those ground lines actually carry no current, but are called 'bonding' wires. More for lightning strikes, static and equipment failures, etc. They are usually open to the air (no paint) On the motorhome there actually could be current flowing through parts of the iron frame, and waterproofing by paint is common. Of course it makes it harder to inspect the condition of the connection too. You also don't want water seeping back under the insulation. You could put a blob of sealant or caulking on the termination, but you are just connecting to the steel frame.
Batteries located in the engine compartments of cars are exposed to a lot more heat than just the weather outside. So they do wear and fail sooner. Also they are exposed to water spray and freezing weather more than house batteries. Hopefully house batteries are slightly more protected from temperature extremes. RonB

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #41 – November 22, 2019, 07:01:23 pm

I spoke with LifeLine Battery customer service this afternoon about my AGM’s. After a speaking with the very friendly gentleman, I came away with a bit of information that I wasn’t expecting.

He mentioned that my charging time while camping was most likely only a surface charge. A true full charging cycle can take up to 4 hours while plugged into shore power.

He also mentioned that our 200 watts of Solar was insufficient to fully charge our AGM’s. He did not say that it was due to the seasonal sun angle. He simply stated that 200 watts was insufficient to do the job. (It’s for sure that the shade doesn’t help matters).

He was very generous in offering to check out the batteries if I wanted to drop them off. I may do that. We spoke for a bit longer and I explained my discharging difficulties.

He did say that 24/7 charging was ok and that they need occasional equalization. It was my understanding that AGMs needed no equalization. (I believe it said this on the panel of the Bluesky 3000i or in the LD manual) He said that AGMs do need the process. Rats!

On the subject of Lithium’s, he said that they have, as of yet, not been a proven battery technology for the RV industry. He cautioned that Lithium battery’s have a 70% DOD (everything I’ve read said the DOD is 80% and the recharge rate is much quicker than AGMs).

We spoke of future battery technology. When I inquired about a possible Lifeline Lithium offering, he mentioned that they may have a Lithium battery sometime next year. There are certainly a lot of changes happening in the power storage industry.

AM Solar will be installing 125 Ah LifeBlue Lithium batteries. 4 such batteries will theoretically provide nearly 400 Ah of power. 6 100 watt Solar panels, I am hoping, will maintain a full charge. I have read, though, that Lithium batteries prefer a 70% charge so I should be good to go.

The 8 1/2 hour drive home from Yosemite yesterday had indeed done my coach batteries some good. They never dipped below 12.9 overnight and well into the morning and by then the Sun was adding power and has done so for nearly 8 hours.

I did mention to LifeLine, that RVers are almost doomed to suffer low charge rates this time of year due to low sun angles and short charging times. Then taking into consideration the shade we often encounter during sunny seasons we may have a difficult time of maximizing our RV batteries.

When our AGMs were new this whole problem didn’t exist. And who knew about the AGM equalization thing. The RV lifestyle can sure keep you on your feet.

I need a cup of coffee.

Kent

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #42 – November 22, 2019, 08:03:15 pm

Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - November 22, 2019, 07:01:23 pm

AM Solar will be installing 125 Ah LifeBlue Lithium batteries. 4 such batteries will theoretically provide nearly 400 Ah of power. 6 100 watt Solar panels, I am hoping, will maintain a full charge. I have read, though, that Lithium batteries prefer a 70% charge so I should be good to go.

Lithium batteries should be charged to 100% IF you plan to use charge overnight. They last longer if kept at a lower level of charge while in storage, though.

Steve

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #43 – November 22, 2019, 08:19:00 pm

Time for an upgrade, Kent?

Powerwall | The Tesla Home Battery

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #44 – November 22, 2019, 08:25:29 pm

You need some donuts too, you deserve a break today

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batts?

Reply #45 – November 22, 2019, 10:48:41 pm

Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - November 22, 2019, 07:01:23 pm

A true full charging cycle can take up to 4 hours while plugged into shore power.
He also mentioned that our 200 watts of Solar was insufficient to fully charge our AGM’s.

He did say that 24/7 charging was ok

On the subject of Lithium’s, he said that they have, as of yet, not been a proven battery technology for the RV industry. He cautioned that Lithium battery’s have a 70% DOD (everything I’ve read said the DOD is 80% and the recharge rate is much quicker than AGMs).

Kent,
What you are being told is not real far off from what I have read/been told.
In my talking to manufacturers, different batteries are different.

I spoke to Victron engineers (THE guys who know about the Victrons) a couple years ago. I was specifically asking about if a load pulled down the voltage output of the battery. They said their batteries are above 13 Volts with (I forget it if was none or a negligible pull down of voltage) up until 80% DOD. After that the voltages dropped if there was a load on them.

LifeLine may have a different DOD.

"24/7 charging is ok .. " - I would qualify that with "if you have a smart charger" that knows what levels to charge at and when to stop charging. [From your posts sounds like you have this, I am adding it so others check what charger they have before assuming it is ok for them also.]

Solar being able to fully charge or not, I think that really depends on your usage each day. I have read of people who fully charge on their solar no problem and never plug in with no real battery degradation, while others say they have to have to charge with shorepower regularly (every 4 days sticks in my head). I don't think the answer is as simple as yes / no.

Victron was well established with lithium a couple years ago when I had my first talk with them and I didn't find that level of knowledge at the other companies I was talking to. I will be talking to the engineers again in the next week about another issue (included is discussions on issues of being able to get a full charge off shore power or not). I will ask them if in their opinion Victron feels that Lithium for RV has been fully flushed out (including charging and discharging while boondocking, recharging with solar only if possible, with generator if required).

Jane

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batteries?

Reply #46 – November 23, 2019, 10:32:09 am

I'm no expert more like student level ...... but its been my observation that tires and batteries are a never never ending point of conversation and observation. I think the problem is we all use our tires and batteries in a different personal way. This leads to all sort of personal conclusions that seem to be true to us. The manufacture can give us general guidelines but have no control of the use of their product.
What, to me, is amazing is our tires and batteries work as well as they do in as many different applications we put them to.

glen

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batteries?

Reply #47 – November 29, 2019, 02:36:39 am

Hi Kent,

Was that your rig in the Upper Pines Campground at Yosemite? We were there for 2 nights in Thistle Dew Too, and decided to beat a hasty retreat before they closed Tioga Rd. Sorry we didn't see you milling around. You can see our pictures on our blog if you are curious.

I have a larger solar system (also from AM Solar) and 4 AGM batteries, and frankly there is just too much shade in Upper Pines, especially this time of year, to keep the batteries fully charged. We were down to about 80%, and even ran our generator once just to keep them from going lower.

I think you can make do until you visit AM Solar next year. Good luck!

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batteries?

Reply #48 – November 29, 2019, 12:35:54 pm

Hi Steve and Carol,

We were in Upper Pines in Site 222 from the 10th to the 21st. So yes that was us, most likely. I saw only two LD's there during our stay. Were you there twice over the week? Neither LD stayed more than a couple of days.

Saw a cute little trailer near your site. Did you see that one. Probably easy to keep warm.

Riding through camp on our bikes, I did notice a LD with a nice couple at their picnic table. It was cold...and my DW wanted to get inside. I, on the other hand, wanted to say howdy. Oh well. The chill won out. ❄️

You were gone the next day so accept my Howdy now. ☃️ Camp was pretty bare wasn’t it. Kind of a ghost town after a while. There were actually sites available for walk ins prior to our departure. That is seldom seen, if ever, during peak seasons.

Next trip is Morro Bay. Hope to see you there.

Kent

Re: Will 24/7 Shore Power Damage Batteries?

Reply #49 – October 30, 2023, 02:17:47 pm

94-TK
I have two Interstate 6V Deep Cycle RV Batteries… Something was left on, batteries are dead. If I plug into shore power will my batteries charge?

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Reply #25 – November 18, 2019, 11:44:38 pm

Reply #26 – November 19, 2019, 10:35:59 am

Reply #27 – November 19, 2019, 11:30:32 am

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Reply #29 – November 19, 2019, 01:51:10 pm

Reply #30 – November 19, 2019, 02:48:28 pm

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Reply #35 – November 20, 2019, 12:38:20 pm

Reply #36 – November 20, 2019, 02:10:30 pm

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