Solar Power Future Upgrade September 28, 2019, 03:09:39 pm Starting this thread as an off shoot from the LD Won’t Start Thread.One of the biggest reasons for a Solar Upgrade is, for me, to prevent unintentional over discharging of our house batteries. I’ve decided to use AM Solar for a couple of reasons. LDOG has praised them highly and I believe they will provide the best service. I do intend to have the wiring upgraded to accommodate the additional panels. I would like to have 400 to 600 watts if the panels will fit our 27’ RB. I still want some real estate up top for walking about for service and cleaning.It appears that the Blue Sky Solar Boost 3000i is limited to 400 watts so I’m not certain how this upgrade will pan out but I have a sneaky suspicion that someone here or at AM Solar will lead me to a successful upgrade. Here’s a shot of the OEM Solar array and the roof access panel to the controller. Any advice will be greatly appreciated. In the meantime I’ll hit the archives and reach out to AM Solar. I know they are very busy and an installation needs to be scheduled in advance. So I’ve got time on my side.Another nice thing about AM Solar is their location. My brother has a second home not too far from them. This will be the perfect opportunity to take him on a road trip and get him out of Colorado for a bit.Always planning ahead...while I still can.Kent 2 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #1 – September 28, 2019, 03:44:43 pm Kent, sounds like a good plan. I assure you that AM Solar will plan a system for you in which the components work well together.Ten years ago, the rule of thumb was, one panel per battery. I have 6 batteries and I got 4 panels, later upgraded to 5. I would have gone for 6 if I had the room. Key, though, is AM Solar did my system. When I added my 5th panel they did it. When I replaced my 9 year old, but still good, AGM battery bank with new ones, they did that, too.Good luck with the system.Ken F in NM 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #2 – September 28, 2019, 05:35:14 pm Ken,With our RB, there is available space inside for AGM’s under the dinette seats. The original AGM’s are going on 4 years old and the battery bay is very near the dinette. It looks like we will have 5 new AGM’s when it’s all said and done. I’d like to keep them close to each other so this placement would most likely limit us to 5 total AGM’s. With that in mind and the “one battery per panel” rule, it would limit us to 5 panels. I’m ok with that. I do wonder about the issue of battery weight. Will having 5 AGM’s on the same side of the rig risk an unbalanced coach? I’m sure AM Solar will have all the answers. Better start saving my pennies. 💰Kent 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #3 – September 28, 2019, 07:31:09 pm Kent, I have a Midbath. That puts the dinette area behind the cab seats. My AGM's are 6 volt units, so I needed an even number. I went with 6, and they do fit under the longer dinette seat, along with a whole house inverter. I do not have any batteries in the original exterior battery space. I use it for storage. In that configuration, the batteries are all abutting one another, are all at the same temperature, and the run to the heaviest load, the inverter, is less than one foot. I find it to be an excellent arrangement.When I had my rig weighed, I did it with the waste tanks empty, the gas and water tanks full, and me, at (then) over 300 lbs, in the driver's seat. My left and right front weights were both 2300 lbs. My left rear was 4700 and my right rear was 4800, so the weight of my battery bank, 6 AGM's all on the right side. was not a problem at all.Ken F in NM 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #4 – September 28, 2019, 11:03:03 pm Maybe it is time to go lithium. You don’t need as many of them and they are 29lbs vs 55lbs.Split the project into batteries and panels. Do the batteries yourself and contract the solar.There is some thought that lithium is cheaper than AGM over time but maybe not.Lithium is certainly a better battery. Lighter, quicker to charge to full.I have 200ah lithium and 225ah of lead acid. They arguably function as if I had 650ah of AGM and cheaper. The downside is you have to do the battery work yourself.With lithium they charge so readily that there is less emphasis on large solar arrays. I only have 200 watts of solar. Some class Bs are choosing to skip solar because 15 minutes of generator will cover it.Total investment around $3k.Just another solution to the problem. I have all the power I need in freezing conditions to run the furnace and satellite TV but it does require a daily 30 minute generator run. The initial charge rate is over 100 amps so it doesn’t take long. Both battery banks are at 100% at sunset, rain or shine.Downside? You do have to pay attention to it, choose when to use FLA and when to draw down the lithium. Lithium is used to charge the FLA when the sun is lacking which is another switch.If the hybrid system doesn’t grab you consider 300 or 400ah of lithium and an empty FLA box. Run that with 200 watts of solar and see how it works. You will find your solar panels work better with lithium.
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #5 – September 29, 2019, 01:43:03 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - September 28, 2019, 05:35:14 pmWith our RB, there is available space inside for AGM’s under the dinette seats. The original AGM’s are going on 4 years old and the battery bay is very near the dinette. It looks like we will have 5 new AGM’s when it’s all said and done. I’d like to keep them close to each other so this placement would most likely limit us to 5 total AGM’s. With that in mind and the “one battery per panel” rule, it would limit us to 5 panels. I’m ok with that. One panel per battery isn't a rule, is just a suggestion and doesn't take into consideration what size the panels are.Common sizes of panels are 100-watts and 160-watts. which size fits the "rule". Our LD has had 400-watts of solar and four 6-volt T-105s batteries for 15 years and we almost never run low on power. If it occurs, it's always during the depths of winter when parked for several days in the same place, with some shade.The very few times we ran low, the generator, along with a much larger converter, has helped but I doubt if we have run the generator more than 20 hours, over the last ten years, to charge the batteries.Staying with 400-watts of solar enables keeping the otherwise perfectly acceptable Blue Sky 3000i, just needing to have the lead in wiring, from the panels, upgraded.As Ken pointed out, five batteries will require switching to 12-volt batteries, 6-volts batteries need to be installed in pairs, wired in series-parallel . There is no electrical advantage running similar size 6-volt batteries vs 12-volt batteries.Before proceeding, i would weight the rig with a full water tank and then with full holding tanks. While Am Solar are whizzes with electrical upgrades, they are not too concerned with weight placement. You need to be responsible to ensure the rig is well balanced.Larry
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #6 – September 29, 2019, 02:18:19 pm 400 watts sounds like a sound option at this point. 200 has served us fairly well so two additional 100 watt panels would suit me fine. While our AGM’s are perfectly fine with me, I am considering Lithium as an upgrade. After watching the “Wynn’s†lithium battery review, the cost difference is pretty much a moot point. The amp hour storage capacity of Lithium is also a huge consideration. Lifeline GPL-4CT AGM Marine/RV Battery 6V Volt 750CCA Amazon.com: Lifeline GPL-4CT AGM Marine/RV Battery 6V Volt 750CCA: AutomotiveRenogy Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery 12 Volt 100Ah for RV, Solar, Marine, and Off-grid Applications Amazon.com: Renogy Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery 12 Volt 100Ah for RV,...Obviously, I am still in the planning stage and the actual project is yet to be finalised, but my thought is that if Two Lithium Batteries will fit the existing Battery Bay then they will go there. If not, then I’ll most likely place them under the rear dinette seat. The forward dinette seat shares its compartment with the existing battery bay and allows access to the Fresh Water Tank Sensors and Wiring harnesses. It’s all really very exciting. I always enjoy putting in LD upgrades. It’s like a Birthday and Christmas rolled into one. 🎂/🎅🏻 ThanksKent As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #7 – September 29, 2019, 03:04:20 pm Kent, a reminder Lithium doesn't do well with heat so if you are putting them in your old battery bin cover the vents and add insulation. Adding some holes to the interior will help keep that area close to inside LD temperatures. JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #8 – September 30, 2019, 09:17:02 am May I add either buying portable solar panels or building a set will be cheaper then what ever AM Solar comes up with. Advantages of building a 'personal' portable solar panel1. you can upgrade the parts at will. 2. take them or leave them at home depending on camping trip3. move them to match the movement of the sunDisadvantage1. finding storage space in rig2. setup and take down time at camp spot3. growing legs and moving on their own<smile> I agree thinking and doing upgrades are one of my fav past times .......glenp.s. if I may point ya to my post of my experience building my 'learning' system .....Homemade Portable Solar Panel Built
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #9 – September 30, 2019, 10:36:03 am Glen,You said, “Disadvantage1. finding storage space in rig2. setup and take down time at camp spot3. growing legs and moving on their own”.After chatting with Larry, I believe it was at the MBGT, I nix’ed the idea of portable for those same reasons. It was also mentioned that the resistance in the power cable was excessive and the gain in solar charge would be lost accordingly. Overall, for me, I believe the roof top array will serve me better although I had given some thought to going portable to be able to move the panels out of the shade. Thanks for sharing your experience. There’s so much to learn about Solar and upgrades. Kent 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #10 – September 30, 2019, 11:20:03 am Lithium doesn’t do well in “cold” and needs to be inside. I expect you will end up concluding the batteries need to be in the forward dinette. No holes need be drilled to get the wiring where it needs to go.I have two GP 31 batteries, two 60 amp lithium battery chargers, one DC to DC charger, a 1500 watt inverter and a transfer switch in there.. You should be able to put 3-5 batteries in there.
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #11 – September 30, 2019, 12:53:10 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - September 29, 2019, 02:18:19 pm400 watts sounds like a sound option at this point. 200 has served us fairly well so two additional 100 watt panels would suit me fine. While our AGM’s are perfectly fine with me, I am considering Lithium as an upgrade. After watching the “Wynn’s†lithium battery review, the cost difference is pretty much a moot point. The amp hour storage capacity of Lithium is also a huge consideration.Lifeline GPL-4CT AGM Marine/RV Battery 6V Volt 750CCA Amazon.com: Lifeline GPL-4CT AGM Marine/RV Battery 6V Volt 750CCA: AutomotiveRenogy Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery 12 Volt 100Ah for RV, Solar, Marine, and Off-grid Applications Amazon.com: Renogy Lithium-Iron Phosphate Battery 12 Volt 100Ah for RV,...When it comes to cost, lithium and AGMs are getting very close to each other. Wish there was more long term experience with lithiums used in RVs, I hope they are more dependable than AGMs, they should be less prone to damage, assuming the built-in BMS functions correctly . Even with a larger converter, our LDs cannot produce high enough charger rates to take full advantage of a lithium battery's capability to charge at very high rates. For our usage, lithium's light weight is the main advantageThe downside for me is the cost and how much usable power is stored. Two Renogy 100-amp/hr batteries will cost close to $2000 and have 180-amp/hrs of usable power, before needing recharging. A pair of 100-amp/hr Victron lithium batteries will cost considerably more, $2700 for the pair.Victron Energy LiFePO4 Battery 12,8V/100Ah SmartFour AGMs will provide 220-amp/hr of useable power for about $1600. AGMs still hold the cost advantage.. Years ago when adding batteries to our LD, I didn't want the expense of AGMs or their weaknesses. LD had big problems when the AGMs were introduced, the converter being used would overcharge and destroy the AGMs, sometimes within months of purchase. I wanted a battery that wasn't so sensitive and easy to destroy. I had installed and used hundreds Trojan batteries for a couple decades at work and was impressed with their durability in commercial use.A rack was built and mounted under the frame to hold four Trojan T-105s and installed a remote watering system. Battery tray- new | FlickrReplacing the T-105s today cost about $700 for a total of 440-amp/hrs, with 220-amp/hr usable. Trojan T-105LPT-MV Group GC2 BatteryOur existing battery pack is eight years old and still functioning adequately.It's hard to beat the value and practicality of lead-acid batteries, as long as they can be mounted outside in a ventilated compartment or inside an air tight enclosure, ventilated to the outside. Our 23.5' FL did not have a good spot inside for extra batteries but did have a location under the floor. Luckily, lead-acid batteries are not as sensitive to temperature extremes as lithium batteries are.Larry 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #12 – September 30, 2019, 09:19:06 pm "Even with a larger converter, our LDs cannot produce high enough charger rates to take full advantage of a lithium battery's capability to charge at very high rates."Larry, I agree with many of your points, but I disagree with this statement. Yes, very few RVs in our class can pump in current as fast as the battery can take it... in bulk mode. But with lead-acid batteries, after that comes absorb mode, where the charger trickles in power more and more slowly until a full charge is reached. That can easily take hours. Anybody with a Victron solar controller and lead-acid batteries can look at the VictronConnect app's History page and see how many hours a day the controller spends spoon-feeding power in absorb mode.The big advantage of LiFePO4 batteries is that they stay in bulk mode right up until they're fully charged. They skip the time-consuming absorb stage. With lithium batteries it's full speed ahead--whatever your charging system can deliver--until 100% is reached.This means shorter generator run times. It means more effective use of midday solar power. For comparable amp-hour ratings, lithium batteries get charged up faster than lead-acid batteries, regardless of how much or how little power your charger can deliver.Absorb mode wastes time. With LiFePO4 batteries, it's "bulk and done." That's an important advantage. 5 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #13 – September 30, 2019, 09:46:51 pm "It was also mentioned that the resistance in the power cable was excessive and the gain in solar charge would be lost accordingly."That depends upon the length and gauge of the cable. You can easily figure out what will be lost using a voltage drop calculator. For example, a single 18 V (Vmp), 100 W panel--the most common type--connected with 25 feet of #10 cable yields a voltage drop of 2.1%, bringing the voltage down to 17.6V. That's acceptable for most people. If you really want to be efficient, going with two panels in series would cut voltage drop to 1%, again assuming 18 V 100 W panels and 25' of #10 cable.I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't put panels on the roof, although some RVers with smaller rigs do get by with only portable panels on the ground. But there's nothing that says you can't have both, and there are big advantages to having the option of parking in the shade while setting out a panel or two in the sun...... or supplementing your roof panels with ground panels on a cloudy day. I've been doing this for years. My latest rig, the tiny Trillium, will have 140 W on the roof (all I can fit) and 100 W on the ground when needed. 3 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #14 – October 26, 2019, 02:54:54 pm I finalised my Solar Upgrade with Garret at AM Solar and will have the installation done mid July of 2020. It’ll be a five day installation.Needless to say the project will be quite intense:1) Two 100 watt panels added to my existing two 100 watt panels. 6 gauge wire in place of LD’s 10 gauge.2) Two LifeBlue 125 Ah Lithium batteries and all associated upgrades.3) A Victron or Xantrex 2000 Watt Inverter/80 A charger. While there, I may look into adding a quick connect for portable Solar Panels and the possibility of adding two additional Lithium batteries. Over the past few years, I’ve been mostly successful keeping the Two AGM batteries charged with our two 100 watt panels. More of a challenge when traveling with guests. This upgrade should make power usage less of an issue. It will definitely be “Christmas In July”. Kent 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #15 – October 26, 2019, 04:07:07 pm Do you mostly boondock, Kent?
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #16 – October 26, 2019, 04:57:56 pm Greg,We do visit Zion/Watchman CG every year but mostly National Parks without hook ups. Watchman, thankfully, does have power pedestals which is a huge help if the weather is hot since they do not allow generators. We no longer go there in the summer.Longer trips like Yellowstone will give us a chance to hook up at RV Parks but generally we rely on the Solar/Generator/Engine to charge the coach batteries. I’m constantly watching the state of charge on the AGM’s. Heading to Yosemite in a week or so and the sun will be difficult to find.Not sure where I’ll stay yet while getting the upgrade. AM Solar says that staying in the rig can add a 25% upcharge in the cost of installation. A hotel is cheaper. Any suggestions? 🥴So yeah, we mostly “dry camp”.Kent
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #17 – October 26, 2019, 05:22:24 pm "AM Solar says that staying in the rig can add a 25% upcharge in the cost of installation. "Hmmmm - we stayed one night at their "site" by the restroom. Our bill was in excess of $7K. I hope we didn't pay ~$1750.00 for that one night with no hook-ups! This was under Greg and Deb, so it may be different now, but . . . Virtual hugs, Judie
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #18 – October 26, 2019, 05:22:59 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - October 26, 2019, 02:54:54 pm 2) Two LifeBlue 125 Ah Lithium batteries and all associated upgrades.3) A Victron or Xantrex 2000 Watt Inverter/80 A charger. The two 12-volt, 125-AH lithium batteries, will provide 200-AH of usable capacity, will be almost double of the existing AGM's maximum usable capacity of 110-AH, when the existing AGMs were new. AGMs and lead-acid batteries loose capacity as they age, figure around 10% capacity per year of age. Unless you plan on using the inverter a lot for appliances with high power needs, 250-AH of lithium batteries should be adequate with 400-watts of solar. I would stay with one brand of components, probably the Victron, to eliminate any incompatibility issues.If planning on adding portable panels, make sure the solar controller is capable of handling the extra amperage.Be prepared for a high labor charge, in addition to the components. It's a big job.You could save a bit of money installing the panels and replacing the lead-in cabling yourself. It's not technically difficult.The inverter is a more difficult installation, requiring large cable crimpers for the battery cable lugs. The heavy, 0000-gauge cable is hard to deal with in tight quarters.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #19 – October 26, 2019, 05:35:45 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - October 26, 2019, 04:57:56 pmNot sure where I’ll stay yet while getting the upgrade. AM Solar says that staying in the rig can add a 25% upcharge in the cost of installation. A hotel is cheaper. Any suggestions? 🥴So yeah, we mostly “dry camp”.KentHave no recommendation of sleeping or eating in Eugene/Springfield. To me it's just a jumping off point going east on the Willamette Pass east. I do like 5th Street Market of baked goods.Below is a old link based on snow but its good for assorted view and picnic spots. Willamette Pass Highway tempts travelers with roadside attractions -...One of my fav drives thru the Cascade Range. A must stop is Salt Creek FallsShared album - gr hafford - Google Photosglen
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #20 – October 26, 2019, 05:46:20 pm "The heavy, 0000-gauge cable is hard to deal with in tight quarters."In 1991, we installed a 2000-watt sine wave inverter in Gertie (1985 TK), and I vividly recall being sent to NAPA for bundle after bundle of that "four naught" stuff! Needed a wheelbarrow to get it to the car from the store! Virtual hugs, Judie
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #21 – October 26, 2019, 05:54:52 pm “I would stay with one brand of components, probably the Victron, to eliminate any incompatibility issues”.I agree, Larry. When I posed the installion of the inverter capable of running small appliances (in particular my wife’s hair dryer 🥴), Garret first proposed the Victron 2000 Watt unit. I was concerned about fitting the Victron in the rig and the Xantrex has a more compact profile. When Garrett assured me that the inverters can reside on their side, I deferred to him as to the best choice between the two. I will stick with the Victron for several reasons compatibility being one of them. Upon arrival we will work out all the finer details. I’m pretty excited about the whole thing. Judie, I believe a one night stay is pretty standard at no extra charge. As my plans for the system progressed, the installation went from 3 days to 5. I’m hoping my brother will join me on this journey and we can stay at his second home on the Siletz River. My dear sister has volunteered to join me in any case so I do have some options. The upgrade will be perfect for our upcoming journey to Yellowstone. Now she’ll be able to microwave her tortilla for her morning meal. 😉Kent 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #22 – October 26, 2019, 06:37:13 pm Kent, I won't even ask what this upgrade will cost you! 1 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #23 – October 26, 2019, 06:46:08 pm "Judie, I believe a one night stay is pretty standard at no extra charge. As my plans for the system progressed, the installation went from 3 days to 5."Three to five days seems like a long time. I'm thinking we were there for two days having the whole shebang installed - four AGM's, 2000-watt sine wave inverter, wall read outs, and probably other "stuff" that I don't know about that happened behind the scenes. Our floorplan is the same as yours. The batteries and inverter are under the dinette seat closest to the front of the rig, with the read out instruments on the wall behind the other dinette seat. "The upgrade will be perfect for our upcoming journey to Yellowstone. Now she'll be able to microwave her tortilla for her morning meal. 😉"Has she ever tried heating a tortilla in a frying pan? A tiny spritz of water to pre-heat a 10-inch frying pan with a cover - and they soften to perfection. If one is filling and then sealing the tortilla, this is done quickly and deliciously by moistening the rolled or folded-over edge with a bit of water to hold it together and then let it snuggle up (overlapped side down) with a smidge of ghee or avocado oil in the pan to completely seal it, and cook it to the desired brownness. It will crisp up enough to make this tiny effort worthwhile.Any number of possible fillings, with fresh salsa, sour cream, black olives, grated Cheddar, mild chiles on top . . . OY - I'm making myself hungry here!Virtual hugs,Judie 2 Likes
Re: Solar Power Future Upgrade Reply #24 – October 26, 2019, 06:48:33 pm [quote author=Kent Heckethorn date=1572123476 link=msg=209513Not sure where I’ll stay yet while getting the upgrade. AM Solar says that staying in the rig can add a 25% upcharge in the cost of installation. A hotel is cheaper. Any suggestions? 🥴[/quote]AM Solar has onsite overnight parking, with hookups, allowing customers to stay while the rig is being worked on.When I did installs like this, I would recommend that the owners pack a bag and go away for whatever amount of time the project was going to take to complete. Having the owner in the way was one issue that slows the job, the other is having to keep the rig livable, usually adding a couple hours a day, time that needs to be paid for. This can easily add 25% to the labor cost.If AM Solar is charging a hundred dollars an hour, reducing the daily charge by two hours pays for a nice motel up in the mountains or at the beach. Another option is flying home from Eugene, returning in a week.Who wants to sit in a waiting room 8 hours a day, while the rig is being worked on, Oregon is a beautiful state, get out and explore it, you will find many places you will want to revisit, in your LD.Larry 2 Likes
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