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Topic: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger (Read 550 times) previous topic - next topic
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Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
I am going to add two of the Battleborn LifePO4 12v batteries, and a combination inverter/charger (probably Magnum MS2012) and I am thinking about space & location issues, along with other installation issues in my 2006 Mid-Bath.
I have looked at past posts on this forum, and it appears no one has done this particular upgrade but perhaps I am wrong.
Has anyone upgraded to the Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries?
Is anyone else thinking about doing it?
What about a combination inverter/charger/auto transfer switch (like Magnum or Victron)?
For example, would the two batteries actually fit in the cabinet under the drawer which is under the refrigerator?  Could the inverter/controller then go in the outside compartment where the existing batteries currently reside?

So many questions, so much time...Thanks to all.

2006 MB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #1 –
I have had lithium iron phosphate (Life PO4) batteries installed in my Lazy for almost two years now. They aren't Battle Born brand, but instead I purchased 12 CALB 180Ah 3V LiFePO4 batteries from this company:

Lithium Batteries, Chargers, Solar Storage | Electric Cars Parts Company

The batteries are in banks, located under the refrigerator in my Mid-bath.

I already had a Magnum MS-2000 inverter previously installed in the outside compartment just behind the driver's seat. I also already had 500 watts of solar panels installed on the roof. I'm using a Victron BMV-700 battery monitor to check on the batteries' status.

The whole system has been delightful and I cannot begin to say how happy I am with it. I can run my microwave, computer with external monitor and hard drives, printer, various chargers for my cameras and iOS devices, toaster oven, and even an Instant Pot. Not all at the same time, of course.  ;)

I boondock a lot, sometimes going for as long as a year without hookups. This photovoltaic system has really been integral to my being able to do this.
--
Jan Forseth
2007 27' Midbath named Footloose
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #2 –
Quote from: Jan Forseth  - 
I have had lithium iron phosphate (Life PO4) batteries installed in my Lazy for almost two years now. They aren't Battle Born brand, but instead I purchased 12 CALB 180Ah 3V LiFePO4 batteries from this company:

Lithium Batteries, Chargers, Solar Storage | Electric Cars Parts Company

The batteries are in banks, located under the refrigerator in my Mid-bath.

I already had a Magnum MS-2000 inverter previously installed in the outside compartment just behind the driver's seat. I also already had 500 watts of solar panels installed on the roof. I'm using a Victron BMV-700 battery monitor to check on the batteries' status.

The whole system has been delightful and I cannot begin to say how happy I am with it. I can run my microwave, computer with external monitor and hard drives, printer, various chargers for my cameras and iOS devices, toaster oven, and even an Instant Pot. Not all at the same time, of course.  ;)

I boondock a lot, sometimes going for as long as a year without hookups. This photovoltaic system has really been integral to my being able to do this.

Good stuff and thank you.  I will look into the batteries.  Can you clarify how many amp hours your batteries are rated at?
Also, are the batteries accessed from inside the coach, or from outside? (I'm trying to picture exactly what compartment)
2006 MB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #3 –
Quote from: Jackhiett  - 
Good stuff and thank you.  I will look into the batteries.  Can you clarify how many amp hours your batteries are rated at?
Also, are the batteries accessed from inside the coach, or from outside? (I'm trying to picture exactly what compartment)


The batteries are the equivalent of 540Ah total, 378 usable Ah at 70% discharge. They are accessed from inside the coach. I just open up the cabinet door under the frig. The drawer above that is still able to be used for storage of kitchen items.
--
Jan Forseth
2007 27' Midbath named Footloose
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #4 –
I'm thinking Andy B. has done this.  Perhaps he'll chime in. :)
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #5 –
Quote from: Jan Forseth  - 
The batteries are the equivalent of 540Ah total, 378 usable Ah at 70% discharge. They are accessed from inside the coach. I just open up the cabinet door under the frig. The drawer above that is still able to be used for storage of kitchen items.
Perfect and thanks.  I am very encouraged.
2006 MB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #6 –
Quote from: Jan Forseth  - 
I have had lithium iron phosphate (Life PO4) batteries installed in my Lazy for almost two years now. They aren't Battle Born brand, but instead I purchased 12 CALB 180Ah 3V LiFePO4 batteries from this company:

Jan,

Did you install this system yourself or did you use an installer? I'm researching the upgrade to my 2003 MB.
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #7 –
I stayed with Lifeline AGM batteries in my midbath, mounting four GPL 31XT batteries under the fridge. But I switched to Victron LiFePO4 batteries in my Airstream. I have 320Ah--less than Jan, but I don't run as many appliances. Six 100 W solar panels on the roof keep the batteries charged. I've been very happy with the system.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #8 –
This is a copy from another thread. I retained the FLA batteries in the non temperature controlled battery tray and added 200AH of BattleBorn batteries under the front dinette seat in an RB. In an RB no structural modifications (Holes) need to be made and all wiring is accessible. The post explains how I use it. The DC to DC charger is the key to retaining the FLA batteries and using minimal solar (200 watts) and minimal generator time of 30 minutes or less per day. If I moved on a daily basis I would have added another DC to DC charger to between the engine alternator and Lithium battery bank.

Quote from: Jane and Scott  -  2 days ago
Harry,  You are running your furnace all the time as you are in cold country if I remember right, is that correct

Nope. (24F two nights ago) I find that turning the furnace off and running a heated mattress pad is a better deal. I have a catalytic heater but haven't used it lately.  It is a tough furnace run to get things warm in the morning. Better to take your shower at night when things are warm. At sunset both battery banks are at 100%. Bedtime FLA is at 85% Li at 100%. Sunrise FLA at 85%, Li at 75% to 85% depending on morning satellite TV use.

Generator initial charge rate is 120 amps bringing Li to 100% and FLA to 90% in less than 30 minutes. Li to FLA DC charger is then turned on and solar turned to Li. By the end of the day both battery banks are at 100% with no more generator. FLA is 225AH and Li is 200AH. To add a compressor fridge I would want another Li battery and charger.

Battery power is no longer a problem. Propane use is not a problem as you can always buy more but I have some ideas to reduce it. Using the heated mattress pad instead of the furnace was a start. I do have reflectix over the two large side windows and one back window of an RB. Also reflectix separates the cab from the coach.

I'm using 60-80 amp/hours, approximatly, overnight. The generator restores about 50 amp/hours in the 30 minute run and solar does the rest during the day. The FLA will be at 100% by evening. If solar hasn't re topped off the Li then an evening generator run is in order, usually about 15 minutes with a charge rate of 80 amps.  It used to be 95 amps. I don't know why the reduction.

Doesn't answer the Midbath problem but does present another way to do it. Total cost around $3000.
Harry 2006RB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #9 –
"Generator initial charge rate is 120 amps"     Harry how are you getting the generator to put out 120 amps?  Obviously you are not using the standard charger that came with your LD?  I guess I missed reading something somewhere?

                Karen~Liam
                   98 ~ MB
                     NinA

1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #10 –
Quote from: debinvenice  - 
Jan,

Did you install this system yourself or did you use an installer?


My installer was my honey, quite a brilliant former engineer. He was the brains behind the project and designed it according to my electrical needs and wants. I did help, but mostly did just grunt work at his direction.
--
Jan Forseth
2007 27' Midbath named Footloose
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Karen & Liam  - 
"Generator initial charge rate is 120 amps"     Harry how are you getting the generator to put out 120 amps?  Obviously you are not using the standard charger that came with your LD?  I guess I missed reading something somewhere?

There are two 60 amp Progressive Dynamics lithium chargers in parallel to charge the lithium batteries and one 40 amp Xantrex Smart Charger 2 for the FLA batteries. On initial install one Li battery and one charger charged at 57 amps. Adding a second battery and charger did not double the charge rate but was 95 amps. After a year the Li charge rate has settled down to 80 amps. The FLA charge rate starts at the max charger rate of 39 amps but, of course, tapers off as the charge progresses.

This is not a no intervention system (Grandma can't run it) but works very, very well with minimum generator time and moderate solar. Power is no longer a problem with both battery banks at 100% every evening.
Harry 2006RB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #12 –
Gt it Thanks.  We have been considering the Progressive Dynamics upgrade to our power system but we rarely plug in or use the generator, although in the winter we don't always get enough solar so running the generator or driving the LD has been required to recharge our four flooded batteries.  I would like to get a better charge rate on our batteries, do you know if Progressive Dynamics makes a higher charge rate upgrade?

       Karen~Liam
          98 ~ MB
             NinA
1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #13 –
Quote from: Karen & Liam  - 
  I would like to get a better charge rate on our batteries, do you know if Progressive Dynamics makes a higher charge rate upgrade?

The problem is not so much the charger as it is the FLA (flooded lead acid) battery. A lithium battery charges like a fuel tank fills, full rate till full, the lead acid battery does not.

We charge the lithium battery then let it spend all day charging the FLA to 100% At the end of the day if our moderate solar system has not topped up the lithium then we run the generator a few more minutes.

We have made no change to the original converter/charger system. We don't use it.

You could add one lithium battery and use it to bring your FLA charge to 100%, silently, during the day. Charging an FLA by generator from 80% to 100% is not worth it. Use solar or a lithium battery to do that.

The main objective was to bring the FLA batteries to 100% charge without using a 4000 watt generator to charge at 200watts. It works very well.
Harry 2006RB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #14 –
Quote from: hbn7hj  - 
We charge the lithium battery then let it spend all day charging the FLA to 100% At the end of the day if our moderate solar system has not topped up the lithium then we run the generator a few more minutes.

We have made no change to the original converter/charger system. We don't use it.


I just purchased 2 100 amp-hour Battle Born Batteries (new for a reduced price from a seller on Facebook who bought them for his van build then changed his mind). Several weeks ago I was in touch with the folks at Battle Born and based on their suggestions, I also purchase a new Progressive Dynamics converter charger because they said the Parallax 7345 was not powerful enough (good enough?) to charge their batteries.

Reading your post makes me think I may not have needed the new converter or am I misunderstanding? My install begins this weekend.
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #15 –
Quote from: debinvenice  - 
Reading your post makes me think I may not have needed the new converter or am I misunderstanding? My install begins this weekend.

Try it. If it doesn't charge the Li batteries fast enough then you can add a dedicated Li battery charger or two. You didn't say if you were retaining the lead acid batteries. The most important thing to get is a battery monitor that uses a shunt to count the electrons going in and out of the battery. That should be your first purchase.
Harry 2006RB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #16 –
What I learned about the PD4655 is that there is a jumper that can be positioned for the Lithium.  It basically does a faster charge which the Lithium can take.  However, it doesn’t turn off.  As long as you are plugged into shore power the converter will be applying 14.6v to the batteries.  I was not comfortable with this so I backed out.  I would want a converter/charger that changed to a float voltage once the battery was full.  If you are using a different converter/charger from Progressive Dynamics then ignore what I said and contact them to get specifics for your converter.  The guy there always returns calls and was very helpful.
2006 MB
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #17 –
"However, it doesn't turn off.  As long as you are plugged into shore power the converter will be applying 14.6v to the batteries.  I was not comfortable with this so I backed out."

Smart move. If Progressive Dynamics thinks a constant 14.6 V is good for LiFePO4 batteries, they have a lot to learn! I don't know of any battery--flooded lead-acid, AGM, or LiFePO4--that would be well served by such a charging scheme.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #18 –
Quote from: hbn7hj  - 
Try it. If it doesn't charge the Li batteries fast enough then you can add a dedicated Li battery charger or two. You didn't say if you were retaining the lead acid batteries. The most important thing to get is a battery monitor that uses a shunt to count the electrons going in and out of the battery. That should be your first purchase.


The AGM batteries will be going away (used AGM batteries which replaced the failing lead acid Trojans). I will talk to the installer about the monitor. Since I plan to depart on August 1st, if the install gets too complicated and will cause a delay because of needing to order more parts, I'll have to postpone the install until I get to Texas.

Below is what Battle Born said I needed to get started. Listed first is/was my configuration at the time and the CAPS was Battle Horns response as to what I could keep and for now and what I would need to change. Asterisks are items that must absolutly be changed.

Solar Panel Charge Controller: Heliptrope PV RV-30S: THIS IS FINE AS IS.
2 Panels: 85 watts each: I CAN KEEP THESE AS IS FOR NOW AND UPGRADE OVER  TIME.
*Batteries: 2 Trojan T105: I CAN REPLACE THESE WITH 2 100Ah BATTLE BORN BATTERIES. [$1900]
Inverter: 400 watts: I DO PLAN TO UPGRADE THIS INVERTER WITH A 2000 WATT PURE SINE WAVE INVERTER AT SOME POINT.
*Converter: Parallax 7345: THIS MUST BE REPLACED BY THE PROGRESSIVE DYNAMICS 12V 45-AM LiFePO4 Battery Charger LISTED ON YOUR SITE AS MODEL PD9145ALV  [$224]


My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #19 –
I don't think the converter/charger you have selected will fit the same space as the original parallax converter.

The following one will: PD 4645VL 45 Amp Converter Upgrade, Optional Remote Pendant

The two Battleborn batteries will receive a charge of around 100 amps from your generator. Sometime in the future you should provide that if you intend to be without shore power for any length of time.

If you are not going to use the space and wiring of the original converter then you would do yourself a favor by choosing the 80 amp version.

Just an opinion.
Harry 2006RB
 
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #20 –
Quote from: hbn7hj  - 

If you are not going to use the space and wiring of the original converter then you would do yourself a favor by choosing the 80 amp version.

Just an opinion.

I actually chose the 60 amp version (PD9160ALV) from ertaileretrailer.com which cost a bit less than the 45 amp version Battle Born is selling.

I am sacrificing some space. The area under the fridge (below the drawer) will hold the Lithium batteries because the exterior battery tray is too small. Not sure where the converter/charger will fit but I'm sure something can be worked out.

Thanks for your input and suggestion. :-)
My wheels:
2003 MB
2012 Jeep Liberty
Re: Upgrading to Lithium Iron and Inverter/Charger
Reply #21 –
Quote from: debinvenice  - 
I actually chose the 60 amp version (PD9160ALV) from ertaileretrailer.com which cost a bit less than the 45 amp version Battle Born is selling.

I am sacrificing some space. The area under the fridge (below the drawer) will hold the Lithium batteries because the exterior battery tray is too small. Not sure where the converter/charger will fit but I'm sure something can be worked out.

Then don't remove the original converter, just turn the circuit breaker off. It will make a good backup. The new charger will need ventilation.
Harry 2006RB