Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #25 – May 19, 2019, 03:45:28 pm I am not sure my experience with total loss of 12VDC is applicable to this situation or not. Last summer, we stopped to have a bite to eat before driving across the Mackinac Bridge. I was in the rear of our mid-bath when my wife announced that the fridge had stopped running. When I went up front to check it out, I noticed that everything that ran on 12volts was not working. You know that feeling when you are a long way from home and a big problem crops up? Expletive deleted!So I went out to check the batteries with a volt meter. I checked each one separately and each was fine. Ready to start looking for those fuses between the batteries and the electric panel and wondering what I was going to do after that, I went back out to the battery compartment. We have a factory installed battery disconnect switch; what had happened was the crimped on connector to the red wire that connects to the disconnect switch had broken. So while each battery had power, they were no longer joined together to make 12VDC. A trip across the Big Mac Bridge to a NAPA where I bought a length of battery cable to join the two batteries together and voila.... we had power. I felt like an engineer on the Enterprise!If you ever read the owner's manual for a new electric device like a TV, under trouble shooting, you notice what appears to be a ridiculous suggestion, to "Make sure the device is plugged in". While I was looking for this to be a big problem, it was something as simple as the we weren't plugged in.So Gary, not sure how you started the genset without 12VDC since I don't know if running the truck engine will allow the genset to start or not. Worth checking to see if you are indeed connected to the batteries before digging deeper.Just my 2 cents.Steve K. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #26 – May 19, 2019, 04:00:41 pm Quote from: Steve K. - May 19, 2019, 03:45:28 pmI am not sure my experience with total loss of 12VDC is applicable to this situation or not. Last summer, we stopped to have a bite to eat before driving across the Mackinac Bridge. I was in the rear of our mid-bath when my wife announced that the fridge had stopped running. When I went up front to check it out, I noticed that everything that ran on 12volts was not working. You know that feeling when you are a long way from home and a big problem crops up? Expletive deleted!So I went out to check the batteries with a volt meter. I checked each one separately and each was fine. Ready to start looking for those fuses between the batteries and the electric panel and wondering what I was going to do after that, I went back out to the battery compartment. We have a factory installed battery disconnect switch; what had happened was the crimped on connector to the red wire that connects to the disconnect switch had broken. So while each battery had power, they were no longer joined together to make 12VDC. A trip across the Big Mac Bridge to a NAPA where I bought a length of battery cable to join the two batteries together and voila.... we had power. I felt like an engineer on the Enterprise!If you ever read the owner's manual for a new electric device like a TV, under trouble shooting, you notice what appears to be a ridiculous suggestion, to "Make sure the device is plugged in". While I was looking for this to be a big problem, it was something as simple as the we weren't plugged in.So Gary, not sure how you started the genset without 12VDC since I don't know if running the truck engine will allow the genset to start or not. Worth checking to see if you are indeed connected to the batteries before digging deeper.Just my 2 cents.Steve K.Vince (Mothership) hates the battery disconnect switch...has plenty of stories where folks come in or call with electrical issues only to find the disconnect switch had messed up.....
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #27 – May 19, 2019, 04:06:18 pm Hi Gary; The problem is when it isn't a short, the normal conducting condition is what you want. Open is the 'tripped' condition, where no power passes through it. This is what I would use Amazon.com: RKURCK 12V-24V DC 50 Amp Circuit Breaker Fuse Holder with Manual... to replace my breaker if it ever malfunctioned. Pretty reasonable price, and Amazon. Let us know what you find. RonB 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #28 – May 19, 2019, 04:13:06 pm Hi there Steve,I will certainly look into the battery box again but as I mentioned earlier, I don't have the battery disconnect switch on my 07'. I can start my generator directly at the generator site by priming, then starting. This verifies that my coach batteries are connected and suppling enough juice to start the generator.Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #29 – May 19, 2019, 04:23:34 pm Ron,Thanks for the link; that looks like a replacement for the factory installed 12 volt breaker. I am going to order one, since it is so cheap, for a spare even if I don't end up needing it this time. I can't resist inexpensive spare parts, that's why my garage is so full! Gary 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #30 – May 19, 2019, 04:53:33 pm Gary; That part is 50 amps. The generator would need 100 amps. So this one would be better outside in the battery box Amazon.com: Marine Circuit Breaker 100Amp for Boat Trolling with Manual.... It is waterproofed better also. That the generator starts seems to indicate that the other circuit breaker might be the problem. It should be near the converter box. RonB 1 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #31 – May 19, 2019, 05:17:26 pm Ron,Too late, I already ordered the 50 amp one. Ah heck, I just enlarged the picture of the factory unit and see that it is a 120 amp waterproof unit. Now I will order the correct one.Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #32 – May 19, 2019, 05:21:58 pm Quote from: jakester1201 - May 19, 2019, 05:17:26 pmRon,Too late, I already ordered the 50 amp one. Ah heck, I just enlarged the picture of the factory unit and see that it is a 120 amp waterproof unit. Now I will order the correct one.GaryOn Amazon you can cancel orders....try that...
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #33 – May 19, 2019, 05:27:04 pm Ron if you ordered on amazon you can cancel it - unless it is already shipped (not likely) it will cancel fine. JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #34 – May 19, 2019, 06:16:10 pm I strongly recommend against using the RKURCK circuit breaker, or any high-amperage circuit breaker or fuse holder that uses setscrew terminals. Those terminals are likely to loosen up with the vibration of travel, and when they do, the result will be overheating and a possible fire or meltdown. Just ask anybody who has had it happen to their automatic transfer switch or EMS.Ron has the right idea: get a marine-rated waterproof circuit breaker with stud terminals, and use ring terminals on your wires. 2 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #35 – May 19, 2019, 06:22:04 pm Yes, I was able to cancel the 50 amp circuit breaker on Amazon and found the exact same one that the factory uses Bussmann 184F-120, non-switchable (others have claimed Vince doesn't like the cutoff types or cutoff switch). One could use the switchable unit Bussman 185-120 and use it as a master cutoff switch? The downside being that possibly the repeated use of the little button may result in failure at some point. I just ordered the same unit that the factory put in originally. Now I will have a factory spare if my problem turns out to be something in the fusebox or behind it. I will certainly give a follow up as promised for everyone following this thread.Best,Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #36 – May 19, 2019, 06:51:17 pm Quote from: pdl2win - May 19, 2019, 04:00:41 pmVince (Mothership) hates the battery disconnect switch...has plenty of stories where folks come in or call with electrical issues only to find the disconnect switch had messed up.....And the reason why the Factory battery switch has frequent problems is that it isn't sealed, the switch's contact are exposed to the elements and corrode away. The contacts slowly start failing and can cause all sort of strange electrical issues.. One test of a failing switch is to check the voltage drop across the switch's terminals, with a large 12-volt electrical load on.If Vince hates it so much, he is in a good position to do something about it,...maybe installing a sealed switch?Here is the switch LD uses or used, not sure what they use today.150 Amp Battery Master Switch - Accessories, Battery Switches - Hella MarineNotice in small print "Note: Not suitable for areas exposed to water or moisture."I never found a sealed replacement for LD's mid-battery mounted battery switch. Better, sealed marine batter switches are widely available but do require an acceptable spot to mount it and up to three new cables.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #37 – May 19, 2019, 07:10:28 pm Since i brought up the loss ot 12VDC due to problems at the battery disconnect switch and now some folks are making negative comments about the Hella disconnect switch, I want to clarify the issue I had. It was NOT the 15 year old disconnect switch that failed. It was the attachment end of the red wire that broke whichment the batteries werenot connected.I did decide to buy a new disconnect switch. I ordered the same Hella item from Amazon for much less than the LD factory charged. These switches have served me well. Never a problem with the switch, only the one time wire issue. I do clean everything in the battery box at least once per year and spray battery terminal protective stuff on all connections.Steve K 2 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #38 – May 19, 2019, 09:35:00 pm You might want to call Vince at the factory tomorrow and get some advice from him. Even though you are not the original owner, he should still be willing to help you. Mike S. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #39 – May 19, 2019, 09:48:57 pm "what had happened was the crimped on connector to the red wire that connects to the disconnect switch had broken."The crimped terminals used by Lazy Daze and most other RV makers are cheap ones (not heat-shrinkable, not adhesive-lined). And the crimp tools used to apply them are often cheap and imprecise. This can lead to failures such as Steve described. Remedy: use good quality terminals (FTZ Crimp 'N seal for gauges up to #10; FTZ Power Lugs for larger gauges) and adjustable, ratcheting crimping tools (FTZ makes good ones) for consistent results. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #40 – May 19, 2019, 10:20:00 pm I got the following info right out of the book's wiring diagram. In our MH, a 1994 Mid bath, there are indeed two breakers, one is in the battery box and the other is inside the coach almost directly behind the battery box.As I read the wiring diagram, the 120 A. breaker protects between the engine alternator and the battery's. You know it's good because of your voltage readings with the engine running. The second is a 50 A. protecting between the converter and the battery's. This is the one that could give a problem, I'm not totally clear where you took your voltage readings from but if it was at the converter and you had no voltage with everything off at the converter terminals it almost has to be either a tripped breaker or a bad one. Take your meter and read from one side of the breaker to the other side and see if you have a volt reading. If you read voltage that breaker is open and most likely your problem. Remember, read from one post to the other with your meter.I'll try and attach my wiring diagram from the manual.This is a really interesting thread so make sure to keep everyone up to speed.Jon...
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #41 – May 19, 2019, 10:50:45 pm My own tentative diagnosis before taking my RV into a shop:I got home before it got dark and went to work checking things. As I had stated, I don't have have the factory disconnect switch that this thread has slightly deviated to. However, I do have the 12 V Bussmann circuit breaker that is mounted in the rear of my battery box. I showed a picture of this breaker in an earlier post. I again tested that breaker and I got power on both studs which indicates that the breaker is not tripped. There is a manual reset on this factorized breaker. This model breaker doesn't have an on/off button, only the manual reset back to "on" once tripped. Bussmann does make a switch with that capability as mentioned earlier but the LD factory uses only the manual reset as far as I know. I ordered a new replacement through Amazon as the direct replacement from what the factory used in my 2007 year. It is a Bussmann CB184-120 Waterproof breaker commonly used in RVs and buses.I again tested the exposed leads in the fuse box and still had no power anywhere. My batteries tested at a little under 12 volts which is obviously low. I next unscrewed the screen door ventilation near the fusebox to check anything in that area. I did find an inline fuse (60amp) so I pulled that out and tested it and it was fine. Even though the control panel indicators and all the interior lights were not working, I can still start the generator from inside switch on the control panel. Of course, I can also start the generator from the outside switch. The generator fired right up and then my fuse box lit up and came to life. The green lite is rapidly flashing and the interior lights work. I then checked the voltages at the fuse box. I got 14.3 volts. Then I checked the voltage at the battery and it was still just under 12 volts. I then shut down the generator and then I plugged into the home 110 30amp box. I rechecked the voltages in the fuse box and they were the same as with the generator running. I then checked the charge voltage on the house batteries and it remained at just under 12 volts. I then unplugged from home power and started the engine knowing that the engine is going to charge the house batteries even more efficiently than the converter. I then checked the house batteries with the engine running and got 13.6 volts!My conclusion, even though I am not an electrician: It seems apparent to me that my Progressive Dynamics Intelligent smart charging converter has failed. I had this installed in 2011 immediately after purchasing my LD. I found the paperwork and see that it only has a two year warranty so it looks like it is time to purchase a new one. I will have it installed by an RV shop so I will have someone to point the finger at if it ever catches fire!I welcome any concurring opinions or contrary opinions if my diagnosis is incorrect.Best,Gary 2 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #42 – May 19, 2019, 11:17:02 pm Your converter is doing what it's supposed to do. When you put 110 to it, it converts it to D.C. Voltage. That's the reason all your lights etc. work when your generator is on or you are plugged in. Your problem is between your converter and your battery. Pull the drawers out from under the frig and there are two "circuit breakers" I think one of those goes to your 12 V panel. The other one goes to your inverter which sits on the back of your battery box in the very back of that compartment. If both those are good then more than likely you have a problem with the ground. 2 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #43 – May 20, 2019, 01:25:01 am Problem solved! A big thank you for all whom chimed in to offer suggestions! The winning suggestion goes to "newbie" gmfl!My previous diagnosis that my converter must have failed was incorrect. On the first night that I lost power, I had pulled the drawers out from under the refrigerator and saw two big black electrical looking boxes while holding a flashlight. These two boxes appeared to be sitting on top of the battery box. I did see some large red cables attached to what I thought were junction boxes. I had no idea these are actually circuit breakers! I did not notice the tiny little black pinhead plastic buttons sticking out of the right side. Tonight, based on gmfl's last posting, I checked for circuit breakers again and once I pushed the little black button, Viola! Everything returned to normal! I must add that the rapidly flashing green light on my fuse box suddenly returned to a slow flashing green light. As a bonus, since I encountered this problem, I got to look over my electrical system and became a lot more familiar with my coach and certainly learned a few things. Hopefully, others will benefit from following this thread. I have attached some photos of the pulled out drawer, exposing the inverter (I presume) and the little silver circuit breakers near the side of the drawer cabinet.Thank you all fellow LDer's again,Gary 2 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #44 – May 20, 2019, 01:54:28 am Addendum:While reading through the installation instructions of my Progressive Dynamics Converter Replacement, I noticed that the original installers of my unit failed to install the two 30 amp fuses on my circuit board. In the instructions on page 5 of the PD manual it reads: "All PD4600 Series Converter Replacement units require (2) 30 AMP fuses which must be installed to distribute DC power." They were both not installed in my original installation back in 2011! They are now installed, as evidenced by the two photos below. Gary 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #45 – May 20, 2019, 04:21:30 am Gary, Whoo Hoo for figuring things out. And extra gold stars for figuring out there was an error installing your Progressive Dynamics Converter Replacement and correcting that!You learned a valuable lesson - the only way to know what your electrical system is doing for sure is to trace wires.I hope you documented all this for yourself and for any future owners of your rig.When we put in our new power center, we were replacing something very custom the original owner had put in. I was posting pictures asking "what is this" for things that were not obvious to me. Something for future readers of this post to keep in mind, not everyone has the same wiring. Most people start out with a basic design that has mostly stayed the same but a few changes have happened over the years (e.g. solar as an option vs standard, etc.).Locations of items change LD model to LD model, and even over the years (all our power items are inside of the cabinet just inside the door of our TK, only the battery is in the battery bin - it is very nice to have everything in one place especially while I see posts like Garys trying to find something while others are saying theirs are in various places). Owners make changes (adding inverters and upgrading charger/converters are common).Some people end up replacing the entire power center (our LDs original owner did when they first bought it, and then 30 years later we did again). All in one power centers with converters included are wired differently than if just the converter upgrade is done.It is nice to know what your electrical system looks like - I would suggest everyone trace wires and take pictures/do writeups, especially if you are not the original owner. Labels are nice (Gary had some nice ones) but labels can and will fall off over time so I don't depend on them being there.Knowing your electrical system and a volt meter gets you a long way! And sure saves time when something needs to be reset. Jane 3 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #46 – May 20, 2019, 01:36:13 pm Despite Andy's aversion to those set screw attached circuit breakers,(RKURCK) they are not unsafe. That is industry standard, as evidenced by the connectors along the top of that fuse panel board. The image of multi strand copper wire being crushed inside a hole by a set screw is everywhere. https://www.homedepot.com/p/14-4-AWG-Copper-Mechanical-Lug-5-Pack-of-2-KA4CBAG2R/202944392?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-202944388-_-202944392-_-N I've worked with power distribution systems 208 three phase, 50 -60 Amp currents and 70 Amp breakers for over 25 years (while I was working). What happens is thermal cycling at the joints. Under high current the copper swells up, then shrinks when cooled down. The inclined plane leverage of the set screw will back off along with the copper 'oozing' away from the contact point. Any oxidation that occurs on the copper surface will eventually penetrate into the connection and cause more heat. and can eventually fail. This applies to houses, motorhomes, cars, and industry. Larry, I, Terry Tanner (Techsnoz site) have all advocated a 'every few years' maintenance procedure to retighten those set screw connections to keep them secure. Spade lug connections also need the nuts snugged up. Details in the archives. RonB 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #47 – May 20, 2019, 01:52:22 pm "All PD4600 Series Converter Replacement units require (2) 30 AMP fuses which must be installed to distribute DC power." They were both not installed in my original installation back in 2011! "If the 30 amp fuses were not installed all these years and the system was working, what do the fuses protect? A blown fuse creates an open circuit, same as it not being there. I must be missing something obvious here.Mike S. 1 Likes
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #48 – May 20, 2019, 01:58:23 pm I believe it is added protection in case the house batteries are ever hooked up incorrectly. However, I plan to call PD and ask.Gary
Re: Total loss of 12 volt power in my coach - What happened? Reply #49 – May 20, 2019, 03:27:06 pm Thanks for the excellent pics! Seeing it is the only way I can understand these technical threads. 🤓 — Jon 1 Likes
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