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Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)

Next on my summer to-do list is a install of a Amazon.com: PROGRESSIVE INDUSTRIES HW30C 30 Amp Hardwired EMS-HW30C RV Surge....
I have a 2014 TK.

Questions
1.  Location - what is the best location in a Twin King
2.  Is this the 'best' EMS or should I look for a different one

Glen

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #1 –
My experience with the Progressive Industries' portable product has been positive, so, if I were installing a hard-wired unit, I'd go with PI. Another company which manufactures EMS for RVs is 'Southwire'; you might check their site for products and compare specs, unit sizes, and prices with the PI models.

Surge Guard RV Power Protection | Southwire RV

IMO, the terms 'surge guard' and 'surge protection' are misleading; a true, robust EMS does a LOT more than just protect against power 'surges'.

AFAIK (the wire gurus can say a lot better than I) , a 'convenient' location for a hard-wired EMS in the TK is in the driver's side compartment, i.e., near the plug wiring.

2003 TK has a new home
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #2 –
Open to suggestions for a 31 IB. The unit I picked up at Q this year isn't working - might help if it was out of the box.

I'd considered the space under the furnace, but second thoughts about heat and the recent posts about periodically opening and tightening connections make reconsideration of a cooler and more accessible location a good idea.
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #3 –
"Open to suggestions for a 31 IB."

Joel

On my 30' IB the PI unit is mounted in the space behind the mesh screen below the sink. The monitor sits on the outer wall of that space.  ;)  Works for me!
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #4 –
I'm looking to pick up EMS-HW30C RV myself. I did some searching on here and saw some concerns w/ the company being bought and support maybe going down hill. Does anyone know if that is still the case? I also read something about wiring it in so it protects both the shore power and genset. I'd love to hear more details on that. That would be my ideal setup. I imagine it wiring it to the output of the transfer gear, but I'm not sure exactly where that is located.

Thanks in advance
Sean
2001 MB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #5 –
Quote from: henness  - 
I also read something about wiring it in so it protects both the shore power and genset. I'd love to hear more details on that. That would be my ideal setup. I imagine it wiring it to the output of the transfer gear, but I'm not sure exactly where that is located.

The transfer relay box is bolted to the back of the circuit-breaker side of the converter. The wires entering the converter from behind the breakers and terminating at the breaker buss are from the relay. The EMS can be splice in here, although there is a better location inside the transfer box.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #6 –
Quote from: colddog  - 
Next on my summer to-do list is a install of a Amazon.com: PROGRESSIVE INDUSTRIES HW30C 30 Amp Hardwired EMS-HW30C RV Surge....
I have a 2014 TK.
Questions
1.  Location - what is the best location in a Twin King
2.  Is this the 'best' EMS or should I look for a different one

The EMS-HW30C has been used by dozens of forum members, for many years . The only failure I know of was Andy's LD, when it suffered a direct struck  by lightening. It destroyed the surge protection component, a part designed to be easily replaced, Once repaired, it continued working.

The EMS requires the output wires from the transfer switch to cut and then connected to the EMS's input, the EMS output goes to the Power Centers 120-VAC input .The EMS need to be near the Power Center to make the connections.
The vanity cabinet, next to the entry door, is good place to locate the EMS.
The fob can be mounted on the wall, above the vanity.

Larry
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #7 –
"The EMS requires the output wires from the transfer switch to cut and then connected to the EMS's input, the EMS output goes to the Power Centers 120-VAC input .The EMS need to be near the Power Center to make the connections.

The vanity cabinet, next to the entry door, is good place to locate the EMS.
The fob can be mounted on the wall, above the vanity."
----
Guess I'll keep my portable; the 'vanity cabinet' is already occupied!  ;)
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #8 –
Quote from: Joan  - 
"The EMS requires the output wires from the transfer switch to cut and then connected to the EMS's input, the EMS output goes to the Power Centers 120-VAC input .The EMS need to be near the Power Center to make the connections.

The vanity cabinet, next to the entry door, is good place to locate the EMS.
The fob can be mounted on the wall, above the vanity."
----
Guess I'll keep my portable; the 'vanity cabinet' is already occupied!  ;)

The EMS uses a small corner of the vanity cabinet, it can also be located under the wardrobe or refrigerator, where ever there is space for the EMS and a pathway for the wires going to and from the Power Center.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #9 –
"The EMS uses a small corner of the vanity cabinet, it can also be located under the wardrobe or refrigerator, where ever there is space for the EMS and a pathway for the wires going to and from the Power Center."
----
Larry, you do know the downsides of giving me 'more stuff' ideas, right?  ;)
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #10 –
Quote from: Joan  - 
"The EMS requires the output wires from the transfer switch to cut and then connected to the EMS's input, the EMS output goes to the Power Centers 120-VAC input .The EMS need to be near the Power Center to make the connections.

The vanity cabinet, next to the entry door, is good place to locate the EMS.
The fob can be mounted on the wall, above the vanity."
----
Guess I'll keep my portable; the 'vanity cabinet' is already occupied!  ;)
Joan, your insistence to the ladies at one of your talks that all the rigs should have an EMS is the principal reason the husbands were forced to install one. Now that Larry has given you options to make the install permanent, well, payback's a bummer!

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #11 –
"Now that Larry has given you options to make the install permanent, well, payback's a bummer!"
----
Yeah, what goes around, comes around!  ;)
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #12 –
Glen, that is the unit I have and am happy with.  I can't help with placement, as I have a MB. 

Sean, Larry gave a good description as to how to wire to protect both the generator and shore power, but may have lost someone unfamiliar with the components.  Right now, you have a shore connection and a generator connection as a source of 120v AC power.  They both connect to a little metal box attached to the back of the breaker box or power center.  That little box is called the Automatic Transfer Switch or ATS.  It will automatically switch the power going to your breakers between the generator and the shore connection.  Inside the ATS, the current will be switched from one of the two inputs, to the inside of the breaker panel, where it connects to that system.

You have two possible ways to wire a surge protector.  One protects only the shore connection.  The other protects both the shore connection and the generator.  Here is how to wire both.

To protect just the shore connection, locate the wire connecting from the shore connection socket on the wall of your RV to the ATS.  With the power off, you open the ATS, disconnect the three shore power leads, remove the cable from the ATS, connect that cable to the surge protector input, then run a new cable from the surge protector output to the ATS input. Reconnect the three wires and close everything up.  That is how mine is wired.

To protect both the shore connection and the generator, you need to remove the three wires that go between the output from the ATS and the breaker panel connections.  Install a new cable to the ATS output.  This sounds easy, but getting the cable out the back of the ATS may be a problem finding a hole and strain relief that can fit.  Remember, you are working with 3 conductors of #10 wire, pretty hefty stuff, in a small space.  Run that cable to the surge protector input.  Connect another cable to the surge protector output, and feed it into the back of the breaker panel, locating a hole and installing a strain relief, then connect the three wires to the breaker panel the same way the ATS had been connected. 

Make sure you have properly torqued all the wire connections and that they are all in the right places.  Check the strain reliefs to make sure that vibration from travel will not penetrate to the wire connections.  Close everything up and you should be good to go.

Finally, if you are not quite comfortable with working on 120v AC wiring, get someone to do the work for you.  This is not a good place to make a mistake!

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #13 –
The PI Web site FAQ page (link here) suggests installing before the transfer switch. I understand why some may prefer after the transfer switch. In the case of the switch on our MB, which was directly bolted to the power center, it took less effort to install it before.

As part of the 120VAC service upgrade project, I replaced our MB's "mousehole" with a 30A inlet mounted to the sidewall of the coach. I bolted the EMS down where the 30A cable used to be wound up under the sink, inside the (former) mousehole. I left a wiring service loop large enough that I could unbolt the EMS and move it out into the clear from under the sink for inspection, repair or replacement. This is a useful idea no matter where the EMS ends up.

Mark H
Former owner, 31-foot gas Class A
Former owner, 1997-8 mid-bath
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #14 –
Ken,

I've got a MB myself, any thoughts on placement in this style rig?


Mark,

I'd be interested the upgrade you did if you'd be willing to share. I'm thinking of doing some work myself this year.
2001 MB
 
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #15 –
I just got the EMS-HW30C I ordered. I'm going back and forth with where to install it....

I really like the idea of putting it after the transfer switch to protect against any genset issues, and also to be able to see the volts, amps, freq of the genset more easily then pulling out an o-scope.

But, then I get to thinking that if I put it the EMS after the transfer switch, then I'm opening up the transfer switch and potentially the genset to the potential of lightening damage in case of a strike that comes thru the shore power line. I image the case of damage to the genset by a strike to the shore power is low. I haven't looked at the transfer switch yet to see if this is even a remote possibility. The transfer switch itself does become fair game in my mind to damage if the EMS is wired in after it.

Is there a general consensus in the hive mind?

Also as far as mounting goes, I'm thinking about putting the EMS in the compartment where the shore power cord is. Even if I wire it after the transfer switch, I'll just pull two sets of wires from the EMS to the transfer switch. I did some poking around the forums and saw some pictures of a few EMS that did their job and had some pretty ugly looking insides. I'd rather keep all that potential boom on the outside of the rig.

Thanks in advance, and look forward to some thoughts.

Sean
01 MB
2001 MB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #16 –
Quote from: henness  - 
I just got the EMS-HW30C I ordered. I'm going back and forth with where to install it....

I really like the idea of putting it after the transfer switch to protect against any genset issues, and also to be able to see the volts, amps, freq of the genset more easily then pulling out an o-scope.

But, then I get to thinking that if I put it the EMS after the transfer switch, then I'm opening up the transfer switch and potentially the genset to the potential of lightening damage in case of a strike that comes thru the shore power line. I image the case of damage to the genset by a strike to the shore power is low. I haven't looked at the transfer switch yet to see if this is even a remote possibility. The transfer switch itself does become fair game in my mind to damage if the EMS is wired in after it.

Is there a general consensus in the hive mind?

Also as far as mounting goes, I'm thinking about putting the EMS in the compartment where the shore power cord is. Even if I wire it after the transfer switch, I'll just pull two sets of wires from the EMS to the transfer switch. I did some poking around the forums and saw some pictures of a few EMS that did their job and had some pretty ugly looking insides. I'd rather keep all that potential boom on the outside of the rig.

Thanks in advance, and look forward to some thoughts.

Sean
01 MB
Speaking of topics, this one is a case where Sean started a new topic (where to install the EMS), which really was a continuation of the original EMS installation topic - a valuable resource for the future. Thus, I merged Sean's new topic with the existing one to keep all the related info together.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #18 –
I just added an album for the 30A 120VAC inlet replacement and PI EMS project on our mid-bath. The link is here.

I agree with the thinking on the PI FAQ page, mainly, that the generator is unlikely to create the same quantities of power problems that shore power creates. As I said in my earlier post, I also was reluctant to unbolt the transfer switch from the power center and move it somewhere else. There isn't a lot of room in that area.

One of the actions, admitedly rare, that can really "zorch" (non-technical term) a 30A coach's electric/electronics is to plug into a 30A 240-volt plug (one that is wired for a dryer). I would not want to expose the transfer switch to that voltage, so that's another vote to have the EMS at the shore power inlet.

There's a nice fellow on another forum who installed an "autoformer" in his Class A coach. As I understand it, an autoformer is a transformer that will boost voltage; it's used to compensate for the kinds of low voltages seen in RV parks with lots of air conditioners running. Because it corrects voltage, its natural location is in advance of the EMS. To protect the autoformer, this fellow installs a portable PI EMS at the camp site electrical post. His component line up looks like this:

Post --> Portable EMS --> Shore cord --> Autoformer --> Fixed EMS --> Transfer switch --> Power center

I can see why he has all this stuff rigged this way, and the perfectionist in me would be happy to emulate, but... I have enough "LD" still in me to not complicate everything I touch (most everything, perhaps).  ;-)

Mark H
Former owner, 31-foot gas Class A
Former owner, 1997-8 mid-bath
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #19 –
Wish I could agree but generators can have many of the same issues as shore power, they are subject too over and under voltage and other electrical maladies .
I have wired the EMS both ways but recommend protecting the rig from both shore and generator electrical problems.
Transfer switches usually fail when the relay contacts pit and burn.

It isn't necessary to open or move the transfer switch, it's output wiring is access from inside the Power Center, on the120-VAC side.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #20 –
Sean, as Larry said above, you can reroute the cables, leaving the ATS in place, just changing the wiring.  Also, it is more protection if both the generator power and shore power are routed through the surge protector.  Clearly, Larry's recommendation to protect both sources is the best way to go.  It provides maximum protection.

Why did I not do that with mine?  First, my fingers don't work as well as they used to, and the thought of rerouting the wiring inside the ATS with that heavy #10 cable was intimidating.  Second, while the generator voltage can and does vary, my worry about surge protection was focused on a big hit from a shore power connection.  Case in point - before I had my hard wired unit, I had a portable surge protector plugged into the campground post.  One night, a motor vehicle accident nearby took out a power pole, dropping a high voltage line onto the feed line to the campground.  Half the rigs in the campground lost their electronics that night.  All I lost was the portable surge protector.

Placement in my MB - I mounted my surge protector on the underside of the cabinet shelf below the sink, so mine is up in the air, above and aft of the water pump.  It is on a 1/2" plywood base which is held in place by four flat head Phillips screws down through the shelf.  The screws are recessed just enough that they do not scratch the undersides of pots and pans on the shelf.  I can use a small power screwdriver in one hand up above to undo the screws, and catch the surge protector with the other hand.  Mark put a service loop in his cable.  I did, too, making it easy to remove the surge protector, resting it on the floor outside the water pump compartment for servicing.

A suggestion for working in that tight space - Start by removing the screws that hold the breaker box in place, and slide it out onto the floor.  This will let you access the ATS from the top, and will give you room to install the surge protector back there somewhere if you choose that area. 

If you install the surge protector after the ATS, thus protecting both the generator and shore power, you will need two pieces of 3/c #10 (hot, neutral and ground, sometimes called 2/c - ask before buying), each between 3 and 5 feet long, to make servicing easy.  You will need two strain reliefs, one for the run coming out of the ATS and one going into the breaker box.  I believe my surge protector came with strain reliefs.

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #21 –
Larry, you said above that you don't need to open the ATS, just access its output inside the breaker box.  For my own understanding, would you then connect the ATS output, using wire nuts, to a cable that goes back out the breaker box to the surge protector, then in from the surge protector to the points where the ATS output had been connected?  I had been under the impression that wire nuts inside a breaker box are frowned upon.

What can you tell us about that?

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #22 –
Quote from: Kenneth Fears  - 
<snip>
If you install the surge protector after the ATS, thus protecting both the generator and shore power, you will need two pieces of 3/c #10 (hot, neutral and ground, sometimes called 2/c - ask before buying), each between 3 and 5 feet long, to make servicing easy.  You will need two strain reliefs, one for the run coming out of the ATS and one going into the breaker box.  I believe my surge protector came with strain reliefs.

Ken F in NM

I'm not used to 3/c #10 nomenclature, is that the same as the normal nm 10/2 stuff you can get at the big box stores? Black hot, white neutral, and bare ground.
2001 MB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #23 –
Henness, probably yes.  Romex cable would be black hot, white neutral and bare ground.  If you use the same cable as you use for your shore connection, the round yellow shore connection stuff, that is black hot, white neutral, and green ground.

Ken F in NM
'08 MB
Re: Installing New EMS (Energy Management System)
Reply #24 –
I'm having a few solar panels put on by Quality Solar in Fremont later this month.
I posed the wiring question to him
Quote
Stranded or solid 10/2 wire? 
Do you install to protect the generator as well as the outside 120?
and received this answer:
Quote


I recommend to install for protection from all shore power.  There is a slight downside (probably the only downside to the Progressive Industries EMS) when running an inverter-style generator as most have a floating neutral and sometimes do not work well.  In that case, you would flip the bypass switch or use neutral bonding plug but I would be cautious using just any one you find since they’re typically not UL approved devices and you need to make sure doing so won’t damage your generator.  If you run the ONAN onboard generator, you shouldn’t have an issue...

Most trailers come with 10/2 solid romex just because it’s easy and more cost effective for manufacturers to do it that way.  When we install news systems however, we use 10/2 or 10/3 SO stranded as it’s much more flexible and adapts to road vibration better and more resistant to abrasion.

Joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE