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Topic: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues. (Read 792 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #25 –
"you can run your refrigerator on AC alone but the lights on the control board won't work."

If I understand correctly, it would not cool at all. It isn't just those display-board  lights that are powered by 12 VDC; the "brains" of the fridge--its control board--needs 12 V in order to function. Without that, nothing would work. Is that right, Larry?
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #26 –
"I unplugged that cord, connected an extension and ran directly to an outlet outside of the house..."

That 'receptacle' inside the exterior panel is the 'shore power source' for the fridge. The cord you removed from that receptacle is the line that provides power to the fridge. I'm hoping it was that disconnected cord to which you connected the 'extension'. Not sure what would have happened were you to plug the extension into the receptacle, outside of creating a parallel path. I tremble to think of it.

Those folks feeding you useful info know far more than I about what the fridge needs to operate.   ;)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #27 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
So theoretically and apparently in practice you can run your refrigerator on AC alone but the lights on the control board won't work. Would this also effect temperature control and lead to freezing everything in the refrigerator?

No, 12-volt power must be constantly be present for the refrigerator to operate. The control board and gas valve use 12-VDC power only. The control boards decides which power source is used to heat the refrigerator's boiler.
The control board has relays that switches the 12-VDC gas valve or 120-VAC heater on and off. The control  board needs to be powered for the relays to operate.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #28 –
I read and reread your post and I have run this through my head a couple times. You have a main 30A breaker and then a 15A and maybe a couple 20A breakers which feed various 120V circuits in the coach. The converter is powered off of one breakers other than the main breaker. It should be easy to tell which one with the front cover off. Power disconnected of course. I would check all of the line side of the breakers to make sure all connections are tight and the breakers are plugged into the buss tight. If they all are, a guy might want to get a new breaker that feeds the converter and what ever else is on it , probably the 15A.

Did you have 110V everywhere you were supposed to when you were hooked to shore power such as A/C, microwave and 110V outlets?
1994 MB
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #29 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
No, 12-volt power must be constantly be present for the refrigerator to operate. The control board and gas valve use 12-VDC power only. The control boards decides which power source is used to heat the refrigerator's boiler.
The control board has relays that switches the 12-VDC gas valve or 120-VAC heater on and off. The control  board needs to be powered for the relays to operate.

Larry
But doesn't this get back to the main controller board? If the converter isn't recharging the 12VDC batteries (efficiently) and/or has (intermittent) problems routing direct 120AC to the reefer, then the main unit could be the culprit.

With electronics, I feel it's best just to yank out anything over 10 years old. If the OP has the original converter, it's going on 30 years old. Even Russia* has gotten around to replacing some of their old avionics - LOL. Same holds true for the water heater - boards are so cheap, they should be upgraded anyway as a matter of course.

Call Randy, explain the problem, and see what he has to say.

*My dad was one of the original 'cold warriors' up in Santa clara before it got rebranded as the Silicon valley. He worked on top secret electronics/comm development during the good old USSR days. After he retired - and presumably after some info was de-classed - he told me a story of some captured Soviet gear from the 70s. Turns out it was just re-purposed German gear from WWII. Yep, tubes and all - truly pathetic.
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #30 –
Quote from: snerf  - 
But doesn't this get back to the main controller board? If the converter isn't recharging the 12VDC batteries (efficiently) and/or has (intermittent) problems routing direct 120AC to the reefer, then the main unit could be the culprit.

The converter MAY be the culprit but there are other potential sources of the problem that still need to be checked before throwing parts at the problem.  To replace parts without first establishing the cause of the problem is poor troubleshooting.
It has not been established that a bad connection or breaker in the Power Center isn't the source of the problem.
The Converter may be in good condition but doesn't seem to consistantly receive the needed voltage to change the chassis battery.
Until the PO determines the cause or provides more useful information, we are guessing at the actual cause.
I have a feeling that a knowledgable tech, with a voltmeter, could determine the problem in a short time.
Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be the situation here.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #31 –
"Am I missing something? Was this a silly thing to do?"

Instead of connecting a separate 'extension cord' would it not have been wiser to use a Multimeter (VOM) to check for AC power at the receptacle? If there indeed was power present at that receptacle it most assuredly was reaching the fridge.  ::)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #32 –
Quote from: JonS  - 
I read and reread your post and I have run this through my head a couple times. You have a main 30A breaker and then a 15A and maybe a couple 20A breakers which feed various 120V circuits in the coach. The converter is powered off of one breakers other than the main breaker. It should be easy to tell which one with the front cover off. Power disconnected of course. I would check all of the line side of the breakers to make sure all connections are tight and the breakers are plugged into the buss tight. If they all are, a guy might want to get a new breaker that feeds the converter and what ever else is on it , probably the 15A.

Did you have 110V everywhere you were supposed to when you were hooked to shore power such as A/C, microwave and 110V outlets?


First off, thanks for taking the time to read and re-read my layman's description of what I'm struggling with. I am actually out picking up a breaker at the moment so I can at least rule that out if my trouble continues.

Yes, I had and continue to have 110 power to all outlets, microwave and A/C. That power has never been interrupted or diminished.
resist the mundane, embrace the unknown
1990 MB
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #33 –
Just a thought!
Having added solar to my 1988 MB which still has the Magnatek 6336 single voltage 36 amp converter, I decided to install a double 15 or 20 amp breaker and separate the converter from the 120 volt outlets. 
Reason #1:  Simplified trouble shooting.   The ATS was failing at the time. So it eliminated the click from the 12 volt transfer relay in the 6336.
Reason #2 : Allowed me to turn off the converter and prevent the 6 amp charging, circuit from boiling the batteries down as had happened with the previous owner(3 years on shore power).  The Go Power 30  solar controller was was providing the three stage charging while in uncovered storage.
Rodney
1988 Mid Bath
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #34 –
Rodney, this PWM controller is not as effective as MPPT controllers when the battery charge is low, so if you are relying on solar alone, an upgrade would help. Not sure what you mean by the '12V relay'. If by ATS you are referring to the transfer switch, the relay runs on 120 vac. Also, upgrading the converter 12V section to a multi-stage unit is pretty easy and relatively inexpensive. Using a Pro-Fill battery watering system makes maintenance a snap.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #35 –
to update everyone: I've replaced the breaker that is connected to the charger/converter and 110v receipt. My LED display showed batts in charge state but that only lasted a few minutes until the reading dropped down to one red square indicating a low batt state. I now have an external trickle charge connected to my house batteries and I'm at about 70% (reading on trickle charger) after an hour of charging. Additionally, my LED display inside the coach indicates the batteries are in a charge state. I also get this reading when the batteries are being charged by the alternator.

To sum up: the only time I cannot maintain a charge state is when I am relying on shore power or generator power. I have an appointment with a technician next week to take a look at things and get to the bottom of things. I will be sure to update this thread with what he finds. I appreciate all of you chiming in with your advice.
resist the mundane, embrace the unknown
1990 MB
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #36 –
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the update.

If it were me, I would replace those 3 year old "marine" batteries with new true deep cycle batteries. You mentioned in the 5th post of this thread that you thought they were "marine" batteries and they were sealed with no way to check water level or condition of the electrolyte. If your batteries are bad, with some failed cells, no amount of charging will bring them back to life. And I would not rely on the motorhome's display to tell you the condition of your batteries. Use a voltmeter to read the volts your batteries are putting out without being plugged in to shore power. Based on your posts, I really think you have battery failure.

I don't know if your vintage of Lazy Daze came with one or two batteries for the motorhome, (I am not referring to the engine battery). Most Laze Dazes that I am familiar with have two 6 volt deep cycle batteries wired to make 12 volts. These are usually referred to as "golf cart" batteries. Probably the least expensive place to get these is a Costco where they seem to have been selling Interstate golf cart batteries supposedly made by Trojan. Not all Costcos sell them though or they are a seasonal item.

Me? I would find a golf cart dealer that sells Trojans and get those. It could be you have other problems like the charger/converter but I would just replace those batteries first.

Steve K

Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
 
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #37 –
Quote from: Steve K.  - 
Hi Mike,

Thanks for the update.

If it were me, I would replace those 3 year old "marine" batteries with new true deep cycle batteries. You mentioned in the 5th post of this thread that you thought they were "marine" batteries and they were sealed with no way to check water level or condition of the electrolyte. If your batteries are bad, with some failed cells, no amount of charging will bring them back to life. And I would not rely on the motorhome's display to tell you the condition of your batteries. Use a voltmeter to read the volts your batteries are putting out without being plugged in to shore power. Based on your posts, I really think you have battery failure.

I don't know if your vintage of Lazy Daze came with one or two batteries for the motorhome, (I am not referring to the engine battery). Most Laze Dazes that I am familiar with have two 6 volt deep cycle batteries wired to make 12 volts. These are usually referred to as "golf cart" batteries. Probably the least expensive place to get these is a Costco where they seem to have been selling Interstate golf cart batteries supposedly made by Trojan. Not all Costcos sell them though or they are a seasonal item.

Me? I would find a golf cart dealer that sells Trojans and get those. It could be you have other problems like the charger/converter but I would just replace those batteries first.

Steve K


thanks Steve. do you think a place like Camping World would have the kind of batteries I need?
resist the mundane, embrace the unknown
1990 MB
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #38 –
Quote from: MuseMe  - 
thanks Steve. do you think a place like Camping World would have the kind of batteries I need?
Best thing to do is contact golf cart stores. I got mine on sale for under a hundred bucks
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #39 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
Best thing to do is contact golf cart stores. I got mine on sale for under a hundred bucks

Thanks Sawyer. I just found a gold cart dealer near me. Other than asking for 2 deep cycle 6 volt batteries are there any other details I should look for when purchasing these?
resist the mundane, embrace the unknown
1990 MB
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #40 –
Quote from: MuseMe  - 
Thanks Sawyer. I just found a gold cart dealer near me. Other than asking for 2 deep cycle 6 volt batteries are there any other details I should look for when purchasing these?

Ask them to test the batteries you have.  That way you will know if you really need new ones.

You need to find out how your RV battery compartment is wired.  If you did indeed have 2 12v marine batteries, putting 2 6v batteries in their place will cause different problems.  The golf cart place should be able to figure this out very quickly.   

You can use either 2 12v or 2 6v batteries, but they need to be wired in a slightly different way.  2 6V batteries is commonly accepted as a better option and modern LD's come wired this way from the factory. 

My suggestion is to start by asking the golf cart people to take test your batteries and make a recommendation.  

They might be willing to take a look at your whole situation and make a suggestion.  I would not be above showing up with some christmas themed baked goods to encourage them :)

Rich
'03 MB in NC

2003 MB
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #41 –
" I just found a gold cart dealer near me. Other than asking for 2 deep cycle 6 volt batteries are there any other details I should look for when purchasing these?"

Mike, my 2003 Lazy Daze came with 2 Trojan T 105 (6 volt) batteries when I bought it from Lazy Daze. That is what I have used ever since. When looking for replacement batteries, make sure you are getting fresh batteries that will fit your battery compartment. When I say fresh, I mean that you should not purchase batteries that have been sitting around for more than 6 months or so. Most golf cart dealer get frequent battery deliveries, there should be a date or marking of some sort indicating what month they were built.

The most common golf cart batteries are flooded cell batteries meaning they have removeable caps to check the electrolyte level. I would suggest you purchase a battery watering device like the Pro-fill system that allows you to keep the batteries filled with distilled water easily. Camping World sells that system as well as deep cycle batteries. They are not my first choice for batteries, that would be a gold cart dealer.

Good luck,
Steve K.
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #42 –
to update:

Had an electrician look at things today. He confirmed that my charger/converter has failed as it is putting out 18 volts.  When he tested the batteries he found that they were only putting out 10-10.5 volts.  He wasn't able to determine why the 18 volts wasn't showing up on the battery test but suggested that I remove the charger/converter from the loop and connect a trickle charge to my house batteries in the mean time.

His overall suggestion was to replace the charger/converter first and then replace the 2 batteries. He recommended an Ioda charger/converter but I don't think that particular brand will fit in place of the old one. I guess he really likes the Iodas. He doesn't make any $ on them and told me I could just grab one on Amazon but I'm not very psyched on modifying the interior of my coach to accommodate this new coneverter.

Is there a charger/converter that fits comfortably in that compartment that I can swap it out with?

Additionally, the over voltage explains why in the last week I have had 3 bulbs in my 12v lighting fixtures burn out. I didn't mention that here because I didn't think that issue was related.
resist the mundane, embrace the unknown
1990 MB
Re: Batteries, Shore Power and Converter/Charger issues.
Reply #43 –
45 Amp Kit For 6300 Series

This is the model everyone uses, and it fits exactly in the space the current 12V module occupies. It features multi-stage charging, and supplies up to 45 Amps. You could fit the 55A model too without upgrading wiring. Your electrician does not sound like he is up to the task if he cannot trace the '18V' he measured.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit