Refer Fire December 02, 2018, 05:46:28 pm I saw this on irv2. It happens. I know of no way to protect against it.I was getting ready Thanksgiving morning to head out on Friday. Turned the fridge on, came back 15-20 minutes later and she was ablaze. Took FD 1 1/2 hours and 6000+ gallons of water to get her out.
Re: Refer Fire Reply #1 – December 02, 2018, 11:58:24 pm "It happens. I know of no way to protect against it."Well, you could swap out the absorption fridge for a compressor model from Isotherm, Vitrifrigo or another maker. I've never heard of an RV fire started by one of those. That's what I did in my Lazy Daze, and again in my new Airstream I'm very happy with the results (and my propane consumption is way down). My Vitrifrigo DP-150 draws 5 amps when running, so it might be a bit much for the stock LD house batteries. But I have the batteries and solar panels to handle it with no trouble. And I don't have to worry about refrigerator fires.Just a thought. 1 Likes
Re: Refer Fire Reply #2 – December 03, 2018, 07:58:24 am News to me. I will keep playing with fire, as I am too cheap to put a lot of money into our 11-year-old rig.Did you have to do surgery to put one in your LD?For those who want to follow you, what model would you suggest?Would four batteries and panels be enough for the western states?
Re: Refer Fire Reply #3 – December 03, 2018, 09:07:53 am I have one question for only LD observations -- In ALL the years since LD has been in business has there be a refer fire?Once we know the factual risk that we can determine the path of action.
Re: Refer Fire Reply #4 – December 03, 2018, 10:00:19 am Quote from: Don Malpas - December 02, 2018, 05:46:28 pmI know of no way to protect against it.How about one of these?Get the Fridge Defend - be COOL be SAFE! 1 Likes
Re: Refer Fire Reply #5 – December 03, 2018, 12:37:42 pm "For those who want to follow you, what model would you suggest?"There are several models from from Isotherm and Vitrifrigo that are a reasonable fit, although some surgery will usually be required. It may be as minor as adding a little trim around the opening, or more extensive, as in my two installations. For example, as I recall, Vitrifrigo's DP2600 model is about the same size as the Dometic fridge found in most Lazy Dazes (except 30-footers). But rather than a same-size replacement, I chose Vitrifrigo's DP150 model, which has about 2/3 the capacity of a Dometic 3672. For me as a solo traveler, the reduced capacity was fine, and the DP150's shorter height let me add a very useful storage compartment below the fridge (see photo)."Would four batteries and panels be enough for the western states?"In sunny areas I'd expect that combination to work. Of course the usual caveats apply: your power usage for other appliances will vary; you'll get less power from those panels in winter; in the cloudy Pacific Northwest, all bets are off... But broadly generalizing, 400 watts and 450 amp-hours should be adequate to power a compressor fridge in the West.
Re: Refer Fire Reply #6 – December 03, 2018, 01:02:02 pm "In ALL the years since LD has been in business has there be[en] a refer fire?"No, not to my knowledge... however, it's a stretch to blame a fridge fire on any particular manufacturer, particularly if they've been in business for a while. Does the Dometic brand have a history? I'd say yes in light of that recent retrofit recall (that may or may not have been necessary).My OEM fridge was on that list of recalls but I did not choose to take advantage of it. Yes, my 13 year old fridge did suffer a major issue by developing a leak in one of the cooling coils, resulting in that unwelcome cloud of sulfur gas. But hey, that was 13 years of nearly 24/7 service. The replacement is working fine.
Re: Refer Fire Reply #7 – December 03, 2018, 03:42:58 pm Andy, drawing 5 amps when running is not much, but how many hours a day, in the summer, does it run? I am hoping to learn how many amp-hours at 12v the Vitrifrigo uses.Ken F in NM
Re: Refer Fire Reply #8 – December 03, 2018, 05:40:39 pm "how many hours a day, in the summer, does it run? I am hoping to learn how many amp-hours at 12v the Vitrifrigo uses."That's a key question, Ken, and unfortunately I don't have an answer. It could be determined by putting a 12 VDC hour meter across the fridge compressor's auxiliary fan terminals, which are only live when the compressor is running, and thus recording hours of operation over a week or so. But I don't know of anybody who has done this.My rule of thumb is to assume a 50% duty cycle as the worst case; based on this, my DP-150 would use at most about 60 amp-hours per day. But I have to stress that the 50% number is pure guesswork on my part, and I could be way off. 1 Likes
Re: Refer Fire Reply #9 – December 04, 2018, 08:06:58 am Thanks for info Andy. And your Airstream looks really good.Linda, I installed the ARP system three years ago. I am less than impressed. Currently, it is disconnected because it was turning off the refer when the boiler temp was well within limits. We normally have the refer full and don't care to risk losing it. The owner is an engineer of the worst sort, totally incapable of communicating with mere mortals. 1 Likes
Re: Refer Fire Reply #10 – December 04, 2018, 09:56:42 am Quote from: Don Malpas - December 04, 2018, 08:06:58 amLinda, I installed the ARP system three years ago. I am less than impressed. Currently, it is disconnected because it was turning off the refer when the boiler temp was well within limits. We normally have the refer full and don't care to risk losing it. The owner is an engineer of the worst sort, totally incapable of communicating with mere mortals.Thanks for that information, Don. I'd been considering having one installed, but guess I'll pass.
Re: Refer Fire Reply #11 – December 04, 2018, 10:19:48 am Quote from: Don Malpas - December 04, 2018, 08:06:58 amThanks for info Andy. And your Airstream looks really good.Linda, I installed the ARP system three years ago. I am less than impressed. Currently, it is disconnected because it was turning off the refer when the boiler temp was well within limits. We normally have the refer full and don't care to risk losing it. The owner is an engineer of the worst sort, totally incapable of communicating with mere mortals.Comes down to the old adage " if it ain't broke don't fix it"
Re: Refer Fire Reply #12 – December 04, 2018, 10:22:38 am I bought the arp system after Don installed one but still haven’t got around to installing it and after hearing Don’s experience with it I might just have to pass on it. On another note it looks like Andy has upgraded his truck to the newest model, I didn’t even know the 19’s were available yet. Joe
Re: Refer Fire Reply #13 – December 04, 2018, 10:48:07 am Quote from: Lazy Bones - December 03, 2018, 01:02:02 pm"In ALL the years since LD has been in business has there be[en] a refer fire?"No, not to my knowledge... however, it's a stretch to blame a fridge fire on any particular manufacturer, particularly if they've been in business for a while. Does the Dometic brand have a history? I'd say yes in light of that recent retrofit recall (that may or may not have been necessary).The point I was trying to share was it's an install issue not a refer issue. Dometic is a European company. The EU has very very demanding standards for any article used by humans. Using the verbiage from a class action lawsuit "The complaint further states that since 1997, at least 3,000 fires resulting in millions of dollars in property damage and personal injury have been reportedly been caused or were contributed by certain defective Dometic refrigerators." . I'm going to guess (fill in any number your feel is reasonable) that more then a million RV's were made in the USA alone since 1997. Since this refer is also put in RV like units all over the world the number 1 million is probably a very low estimate. So the math .....1,000,000/3,000 is about .003 percent of RV's in the USA. There have been about 240 months in that time. If you are in the .003 percent then at any given month you have a 0.0000125 percent change of becoming a victim of a refer fire if you own a Dometic in the USA. <smile> and btw the class action lawsuit include boats so the above number are even smaller. As an another aside I spent at least 15 to 30 minutes looking around the on Google and other search engines for Domeitc fire on boats -- I didn't find one. Many I didn't look deep enough but seems this is just an RV issue.
Re: Refer Fire Reply #14 – December 04, 2018, 03:59:29 pm "I spent at least 15 to 30 minutes looking around the on Google and other search engines for Domeitc fire on boats -- I didn't find one."Propane refrigerators are nearly universal on RVs, but they are uncommon on boats.
Re: Refer Fire Reply #15 – December 05, 2018, 08:29:55 am One more point then I'll let it go. There is a group that has a money interest in this issue. Insurance companies. If propane refrigerator fires were common and a hazard insurance companies would know. Over the years I've been asked many questions when I was applying for insurance. I've never been asked if I had a propane or electric refrigerator. It's been my observation that mile for mile RV insurance is cheaper then passenger car insurance. 1 Likes
Re: Refer Fire Reply #16 – December 05, 2018, 11:37:39 am Quote"I spent at least 15 to 30 minutes looking around the on Google and other search engines for Domeitc fire on boats -- I didn't find one."Propane refrigerators are nearly universal on RVs, but they are uncommon on boats.Never seen a propane refrigerator on a boat, all have been compressor types or use ice.Propane is heavier than air and, if leaked, it sinks to the bottom of the bilge, building up to explosive levels and waiting for a spark. Any boater can tell you that fire is the most terrifying thing that can happen when you are out on the water.Propane is used on boat for cooking and space heating but the controls and installation standards are much stricter than RIVA-certified RVs. Alcohol and diesel are also used for cooking and heating.Marine refrigerators come in two styles, fully self contained and as components, with a separate compressor and evaporator.The component types are useful for super insulated, custom-built refrigerators.12-volt compressors cycle on and off as needed. Engine powered compressors can be used to freeze large blocks of brine that keeps the refrigerator's contents cold when the the engine is not running. This can reduce engine run time to an hour or two a day. While a compressor conversion looks attractive, our LD's roof isn't big enough to add another 400-watts of solar, the amount needed to power the refrigerator. Mid-winter, we need the existing 400-watts of solar to fully recharge each day, assuming the sun shines. A few days of rain could require running the generator several hours a day to charge the batteries and to keep the refrigerator running. I don't like running the generator, our 16 year old LD's generator has only 200 hours of run time, 80% accumulated in the driveway.If the roof space was available, the needed solar and electrical upgrades would probably double the cost of switching to a compressor and adds a lot more stuff to potentially fail. The existing propane-power refrigerator has its issues but it is a simple device in comparison. I would like to add a small 12-volt compressor cooler to the back of the toad.I can't remember anyone having a Dometic refrigerator burn. It's not a common occurrence.There must have been reasons (lawsuits?) why Dometic had the mid-2000s recall to install the shield, once know as the "band-aid", It didn't fix the underlying problem, instead it helps keep your rig from burning when it does leak. Our LD's original refrigerator rotted out and leaked its fluorescent yellow fluid out very near the active burner and there was no indication that any fire occurred.Larry
Re: Refer Fire Reply #17 – December 05, 2018, 10:23:59 pm Good points, Larry. Replacing an absorption fridge with a compressor type isn't cheap, especially if you don't already have the solar panels and batteries to support it. It is, however, a very satisfying feeling to know that my fridge is powered by the sun. :-)"I would like to add a small 12-volt compressor cooler to the back of the toad."Again, that's not a cheap mod, but it's a very handy one. I had a Dometic CF-40 compressor fridge in my Forester, powered by a 100 W solar panel on the roof rack and a group 27 AGM battery in the back seat area. It ran 24/7, entirely independent of the car's electrical system. When I switched to trailering, I installed a similar system in my pickup, and I'm about to do the same with my new truck.It's great to have cold beverages on tap anytime I want, and to be able to turn the thermostat down to 5° F when I want to bing home frozen food from the supermarket. I never would have believed how much I'd rely on having a full-time fridge in my car/truck until I had experienced the convenience it brings.
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