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Topic: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma (Read 676 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #25 –
Quote from: HiLola  - 
To answer the question and for purposes of this discussion, IMO and morally speaking, no.

While their behavior was extremely annoying and unacceptable to most, they were not threatening you with bodily harm so why would pulling out a gun, an act that would be construed as aggression, be considered morally acceptable?  Nor were they demanding you leave the spot, even if it was implied.
On this note is that also your feeling with a home intrusion? If no threat of violence were made against you or your family you would not demand they leave? I can understand and respect this approach and assume you would leave with your family and then call the authorities to remove the intruder which is not an option with a campsite intruder and where the frustration sets in. Though it's ethicly wrong to take an occcupied campsite from somebody there's "no controlling legal authority" and no real law against it so you are kind of in a wild west situation. My original feelings on this were the three options I mentioned earlier which were leave, confront or stay and try to ruin their vacation and mine simultaneously. There has been a good option four presented in here of staying but making it appear you are probably someone the intruders would rather not share a campsite with such as being a nudist. Then again they could say great, we are too so that could backfire on you. That does get my mind working in another direction though and I could assess the intruding group and come up with several different scenarios that would make sharing a campsite with me highly unpalatable. For instance they could have young children and I could go into an Aqualung act:

"Sitting on a park bench
Eying up little girls with bad intent
Snots running down his nose
Greasy fingers smearing shabby clothes, hey Aqualung".

Or maybe say something like that dog you hear in my camper is a vicious pit bull and I camp in remote areas like this because he has a bad habit of attacking children but if your willing to risk it I am. A person could get very creative here once you start thinking this direction. I'm almost looking forward to someone trying to force me out of another campsite. Truth is though this has only happened once in my life and probably won't ever happen again but if it does I have plans in the making. The old Boy Scout in me likes that. "Be prepared".

Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #26 –
I'm going out on a limb, for me, and would like to offer an observation/opinion and a possible 5th option.
<snip>
On this note is that also your feeling with a home intrusion? If no threat of violence were made against you or your family you would not demand they leave?
<end>
I think this may be mixing apples and oranges.  Protecting your home (which you "own", whether you actually own or are renting, same thing) I see as very different from "protecting" your campsite, which you don't own. Home intrusion is different from trespass in my mind. I see home intrusion as an intentional act of violence or aggression against you. Not so much for trespass or just obnoxious behavior.

5th option:
Throw them completely off guard with an act of kindness such as asking them over for a beer. Since I don't drink alcohol, I don't know if that would be adding fuel to the fire, but you get the idea. Whatever you do, don't act as if you are intimidated.
Why would I suggest something like this? Because all of the other responses (except leaving) seem to lead to an escalation of emotion/aggression. I think that will end badly. At least this has a _chance_ of a good outcome. Try to defuse the situation.
As always, YMMV
Ken
Former 2009 MB owner
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #27 –
Quote from: Ken and Joyce  - 
I'm going out on a limb, for me, and would like to offer an observation/opinion and a possible 5th option.
<snip>
On this note is that also your feeling with a home intrusion? If no threat of violence were made against you or your family you would not demand they leave?
<end>
I think this may be mixing apples and oranges.  Protecting your home (which you "own", whether you actually own or are renting, same thing) I see as very different from "protecting" your campsite, which you don't own. Home intrusion is different from trespass in my mind. I see home intrusion as an intentional act of violence or aggression against you. Not so much for trespass or just obnoxious behavior.


As always, YMMV
Ken

I think that's the Crux of the matter. Is this mixing apples and oranges or not? Legally of course it is but ethically it seems no different to me. Either way you are in possession of a place you are calling home and someone is moving in on your space so for me I would be just as morally justified to stand my ground in a camp site as I am in my home. Problem is these types of confrontations can quickly escalate so for me its just not worth it.

https://youtu.be/JwEV9b9_C-c
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #28 –
What we have here ladies and gentlemen, is yet another example of competition over scarce resources, or as Marx stated the problem, class struggle defines the essential social tension.

What no one is seemingly considering is evaluating the conflict from the other person's POV. As many people have noted, the consistent theme is it's "their spot". So, let's consider that perspective: perhaps some who aren't even HS graduates, delegated to a life of drudgery and economic survival, generation following generation, who look forward to partying and getting wild. For these types of people, beer & alcohol aren't just relaxing beverages, but a means to end, ie to get rip roaring drunk.

Now, if one were in this kind of soul crushing, dead-end position, what would you think of someone in their shiny LD (or fancy Airstream in Andy's case) occupying perhaps what they feel is their only real place of refuge? Now, this isn't an attempt to excuse their behavior, but an observation that it may be prudent to avoid situations where you may come in contact with people from greatly varying social/economic classes in the first place.

We self segregate along these lines in our primary domestic neighborhoods. Policing efforts are directed by the priorities placed by different communities. What flies in south-central LA will get you pulled over and booked in Beverly hills. If you consider some of the larger RV get togethers, is it any wonder why they self segregate by class/expense?

The problem is, if you violate standard social norms by wandering into the un-regulated commons, don't be surprised at what could happen. There's a reason envy, greed and wrath make up three of the 7 deadly sins. There are natural and normal expressions of human emotion, exacerbated by feelings of inadequacy and jealousy. It's your responsibility to protect yourself before these types of situations even arise.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #29 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
On this note is that also your feeling with a home intrusion? If no threat of violence were made against you or your family you would not demand they leave?

Quote from: Ken and Joyce  - 
I think this may be mixing apples and oranges.  Protecting your home (which you "own", whether you actually own or are renting, same thing) I see as very different from "protecting" your campsite, which you don't own. Home intrusion is different from trespass in my mind. I see home intrusion as an intentional act of violence or aggression against you. Not so much for trespass or just obnoxious behavior.

Sawyer, I agree with Ken's statement above.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #30 –
"you are in possession of a place you are calling home"

No. Your rig is your possession and your home. If someone intrudes into your rig, you're justified in throwing them out.

Your campsite is a place on public land that you're occupying temporarily, as allowed by the Forest Service, BLM, or other public agency. It's not your possession. It's not your home.

Ken is correct: the two are different. The laws are different. To use an extreme example, there are some states where you're legally justified in shooting and killing a person who enters your home unwanted. You are not justified in shooting a person who enters your campsite--unless of course they threaten you with deadly force. But we're talking about mere rudeness here.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #31 –
And with these wise words from Andy, let's close this conversation down.

Thanks,

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
 
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #32 –

"And with these wise words from Andy, let's close this conversation down."

If I am the only one saw saw where this was going 3 days ago, I should go work for the psychic hot line :o

Sawyer, you agreed that this might have not been the kind of thing this group prefers to discuss and yet you had to keep kicking the hornet nest. 

Good job Chris! So "Thankful" you took the reins of this group when Andy decided to retire.

Steve K.
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #33 –
Quote from: Steve K.  - 
"And with these wise words from Andy, let's close this conversation down."

If I am the only one saw saw where this was going 3 days ago, I should go work for the psychic hot line :o

Sawyer, you agreed that this might have not been the kind of thing this group prefers to discuss and yet you had to keep kicking the hornet nest. 

Good job Chris! So "Thankful" you took the reins of this group when Andy decided to retire.

Steve K.

As I said earlier I'm new here and am still feeling my way around. I enjoy these types of discussions and hoped others in here would to but I also know there are people such as yourself that consider anything controversial "kicking the hornet's nest". Seems as though there are more of them in here than people like myself so I'll keep my post limited to all things Lazy Daze and save conversations like the one I attempted in here for the real campfire with like minded individuals. Those conversations tend to go deep into religion, politics, economics etc and in my circle of friends it's amazing how diverse our opinions can be but we all get along great and learn as we go from others points of view. Great fun if you are that sort of person but very uncomfortable if you are not I suppose. On that note anybody know where the water line shutoff to my swamp cooler is?  :D

Edit:
Reflecting on this subject and my circle of real life friends, we have a tie that binds. We all live eat and breathe mountain bikes and have traveled extensively to top mountain bike locations over the past thirty plus years. Slickrock at MOAB is one of those and once you ride that with somebody you are bonded for life. It's so beautiful and can be so intimidating that it's almost a religious experience. People come from all over the world to ride it.  Any disagreements after that are a shoulder shrug. Maybe that's it. Excuse me for philosophising here I just can't help myself.


"Slickrock is often called the best bike ride in America. That's highly debatable, but what is not: it is one of the coolest, most unique experiences you can have on your bike.

About 95% of the ride is on incredibly tacky, smooth slickrock, and it's just remarkable what your tires will hold. If you have the nerve, muscle, and balance, everything is rideable, including inclines that look ridiculous at first glance. Oh, and the scenery is some of the most amazing in Moab...

"The trail is a never-ending series of short but incredibly steep climbs and descents. The rock provides incredible traction, and after a while, you'll realize that everything here is rideable, even if it appears to be way to steep to ride at first. If this is your first time, walk the steeper ones and work up the difficulties slowly - falling on rock hurts more than dirt."

Slickrock Mountain Bike Trail, Moab, Utah
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #34 –
As a now deceased RVing friend of mine, Lloyd Treichel, used to say, "Enjoying life is a matter of balance..." That's what we try to do here.

Peace in the valley.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB