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Topic: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma (Read 679 times) previous topic - next topic
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Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
This topic may be over the top for this forum and quickly removed and if so I fully understand but it is the kind of stuff discussed around real campfires so I'll give it a shot.
I once had a fantastic remote campsite many miles up a rough dirt road in the Arizona Strip and we were just settling in when three cars one pulling a trailer all showed up. An older guy got out who was apparently the family patriarch and said we always camp here so I hope you don't mind us setting up all around you, might get kinda noisy at night though because we stay up late partying. They then proceeded to set up camp. I thought well what am I gonna do shoot em, so I just drove away.
This is where the moral question comes into play. If someone came into my house and demanded I get out it was theirs now I'd definitely not leave and I'd definitely demand they do, so what's different about the campsite situation besides the obvious legal ramifications. Morally speaking wouldn't I have just as much right to have run that group off at gun point just as I would in my home? Understand this is strictly a philosophical debate and in no way am I advocting for this course of action in a similar situation. I'm curious what others in here think.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #1 –
In my nearly 65 years on this planet I've concluded that some people simply don't give a sh#@t.   I'm not going to change them.  I only focus on what I can control.  Sorry this happened to you.  If you've been camping for any length of time you  will have such experiences. 

Bob
2006 RK
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #2 –
Quote from: rprice  - 
In my nearly 65 years on this planet I've concluded that some people simply don't give a sh#@t.   I'm not going to change them.  I only focus on what I can control.  Sorry this happened to you.  If you've been camping for any length of time you  will have such experiences. 

Bob
Unfortunately I agree and don't think my experience is all that uncommon.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #3 –
A couple of points.
First is the difference between your own property and public property.  Under the CASTLE DOCTRINE you have rights to protect your property up to and including the use of deadly force.  With public land, the case is somewhat different.  The TRAGEDY OF THE COMMONS  is one way of looking at that problem. 

I occasionally am troubled by vehicles blaring loud music of genres I find objectionable.  My solution is a CD of marches by John Phillip Sousa at full volume and windows down.   This is particularly effective and gratifying in very early July.

A second point,  people at times live up to the Boy Scout Law, and other times they don't.  Discussions can follow similar veins.  Should only the first be tolerated?   The discussion boards on Flightaware.com  had many areas and topics which were regularly monitored for inappropriate language, comments and the like.   They also had a free-range topic called the Banter Thread which was an open free-for-all.    It led to ad hoc moderation by users saying things like "Oh take that over the Banter Thread".

Should LDO sanction a topic area similar to the Banter Thread?

Joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #4 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 
A couple of points.
First is the difference between your own property and public property.  Under the CASTLE DOCTRINE you have rights to protect your property up to and including the use of deadly force.  With public land, the case is somewhat different.  The TRAGEDY OF THE COMMONS  is one way of looking at that problem. 

I occasionally am troubled by vehicles blaring loud music of genres I find objectionable.  My solution is a CD of marches by John Phillip Sousa at full volume and windows down.   This is particularly effective and gratifying in very early July.

A second point,  people at times live up to the Boy Scout Law, and other times they don't.  Discussions can follow similar veins.  Should only the first be tolerated?   The discussion boards on Flightaware.com  had many areas and topics which were regularly monitored for inappropriate language, comments and the like.   They also had a free-range topic called the Banter Thread which was an open free-for-all.    It led to ad hoc moderation by users saying things like "Oh take that over the Banter Thread".

Should LDO sanction a topic area similar to the Banter Thread?

Joel
On your first point I fully agree you have no legal right to defend a campsite as you would your home. My query is more in the vein of philosophy and a question of right and wrong at a moral level. As such I'm sure there are some that wouldn't even defend their home and would leave rather than risk any violent or even confrontational event as it would be morally wrong to resort to violence to protect property. Quakers for instance come to mind.
On your second point I did hesitate to even broach this subject in a forum that seeks to be a community where disagreement is frowned on and it was my sincere hope that this subject could be discussed in a way that lives up to those rules of decorum. This sub forum around the campfire seemed the appropriate spot because this is the kind of thing discussed around real campfires as I said in the OP but as I also said it may be pushing the limits in here and no problem with me if it suddenly vanishes. I'll save it for a real campfire discussion with real people so to speak. Even in that case someone would probably get up and leave.  :)
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #5 –
I agree with Bob.  There are so many people out there who have no consideration of others (basically clueless), that I thank God I was brought up by parents who taught me to think about others first.  I am never shocked by the rudeness of others, but I generally meet more great people than jerks.  I might have stayed and asked Joel to lend me his CD of Sousa's marches for a 6am cup of coffee the next morning.

David

David and Marie Philbrick
Proud former 2017 27' MB Owners
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #6 –
"Should LDO sanction a topic area similar to the Banter Thread?"
----
IMO, no!

Not only would this type of "open season" forum increase work load for the moderators (Where's the "line"?), but there are already plenty of free-for-all chat rooms, forums, and "outlets", e.g., Facebook and Twitter, to express pretty much whatever one feels like saying and however one feels like saying it.

Some off-topic yada yada on this board isn't a big deal; our moderators work hard to maintain a positive, courteous ambiance, and one can always decline to read topics of no interest. But, LDO is a venue to discuss all-things Lazy Daze and RVing and to share our knowledge and experience, tips, advice, and discoveries about our LDs (and learn a great deal in the process), not to vent on random, often controversial, topics.

In my experience, "banter" which may start out as light-hearted and joking, can quickly turn hateful, mean-spirited, and destructive (or be perceived as such).

This forum provides a medium for thoughtful and civil exchange of information relating to LDs, RV travel, and closely-related RVing concerns; please take the other stuff somewhere else.

As always, YMMV.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #7 –
Quote from: Joan  - 
"Should LDO sanction a topic area similar to the Banter Thread?"
----


This forum provides a medium for thoughtful and civil exchange of information relating to LDs, RV travel, and closely-related RVing concerns; please take the other stuff somewhere else.

As always, YMMV.
Which is why I thought this RV related subject matter was appropriate and hoped it could be discussed in a thoughtful civil exchange. This kind of thing does happen and I'm curious how others handled it when it happened to them. I figured I had three options.
Shrug my shoulders and leave as I did.
Tell them this sites taken you can't stay here and I'll use force if necessary.
Stay put and try to ruin their fun as they ruined mine.

It was an easy choice for me. I didn't feel it was worthy of violent confrontation and the legal ramifications that would surely ensue and staying put would only ruin more of my time as I sought to ruin their fun. Maybe there's an option I missed?
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #8 –
You could go with a 4th choice:


Let them know that your friends are coming soon, and there are at least a few dozen of them, and you are all overweight men who always choose that site because it gives them the privacy to enjoy the wilderness "au natural."  The family group is welcome to stay, but please don't mind the music or the scenery when the senior nude dance party starts around 10pm. 

If they seem indecisive, proceed to disrobe and set up the dance floor.
 
Rich
'03 MB in NC
2003 MB
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #9 –
That would work for me Rich!  I would not want to be there for the nude dance, but I know I couldn't pull off that response without cracking a smile.

As one gets older, one chooses their battles wisely.  This would not be one of mine.

Gary
2007 30' TB
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #10 –
The last night on an fall-color excursion along US395 one year was ending at Grover Hot Springs SP.  As we were settling in for a quiet evening, a long line of vehicles entered the campground leading to feelings of misgivings.  Two pickups of firewood didn't help.  When a man walked into the campsite next to us and yelled across the grounds "and this will be the bar", we hooked up and went to Turtle Rock CG up the road.
Joel
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
 
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
This is where the moral question comes into play. If someone came into my house and demanded I get out it was theirs now I'd definitely not leave and I'd definitely demand they do, so what's different about the campsite situation besides the obvious legal ramifications. Morally speaking wouldn't I have just as much right to have run that group off at gun point just as I would in my home? Understand this is strictly a philosophical debate and in no way am I advocting for this course of action in a similar situation. I'm curious what others in here think.

To answer the question and for purposes of this discussion, IMO and morally speaking, no.

While their behavior was extremely annoying and unacceptable to most, they were not threatening you with bodily harm so why would pulling out a gun, an act that would be construed as aggression, be considered morally acceptable?  Nor were they demanding you leave the spot, even if it was implied.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #12 –
I don’t think this topic was off-topic or otherwise inappropriate for this forum. There was an exchange of views, a bit of humor, and no political overtones. The only content that bothered me was the OP’s comment:

“On your second point I did hesitate to even broach this subject in a forum that seeks to be a community where disagreement is frowned on . . . . “

I don’t believe this is a forum that frowns on disagreement. We have differing opinions on almost every subject, be it how to remedy a water pump that self-starts every so often or what is the proper response to campground bullying. What we try to avoid are the partisan subjects and resulting polarizing comments that are grounded in our virtually unchangeable political or religious points of view. None of us is going to convert another on such matters, but the passions are so highly held that civil discourse breaks down so often and so quickly that we risk poisoning our cyber-community irreparably. That is why, I believe, we have a laudable policy of avoiding such topics. Not because we frown on disagreement, but rather that we recognize the futility of becoming an “open mike” for heated words, and value this forum as a place to “meet” others who share our particular obsession.  — Jon
(Former) ‘06 TK “Albatross.” And (former) Vespa 250.   Alas, no more; both are gone.😕 Great memories remain! 😄
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #13 –
What Jon said, and kudos to our moderators for keeping it that way!  ;)  There is always private messaging for those more heated topics, if you wish!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #14 –
For what it's worth, I had almost exactly the same experience this past summer while camping in Oregon. I'd been staying at a secluded BLM spot for a week and a half when a large family with a gigantic fifth wheel trailer pulled in and began noisily setting up. There was barely room for both of us. When I approached them, they told me, "We camp here every year," and acted miffed that I was in "their" spot. Since my permitted two weeks would have been up in a few days and they were obviously going to be obnoxious neighbors, I pulled out.

I later talked with a ranger who confirmed that they had no right to barge in on me and no special rights to that spot. But in a situation like that, it doesn't matter what's "moral"--you can't win. An aggressively obnoxious person can always best me, because I am neither. Fortunately, most people aren't like that.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #15 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
For what it's worth, I had almost exactly the same experience this past summer while camping in Oregon. I'd been staying at a secluded BLM spot for a week and a half when a large family with a gigantic fifth wheel trailer pulled in and began noisily setting up. There was barely room for both of us. When I approached them, they told me, "We camp here every year," and acted miffed that I was in "their" spot. Since my permitted two weeks would have been up in a few days and they were obviously going to be obnoxious neighbors, I pulled out.

I later talked with a ranger who confirmed that they had no right to barge in on me and no special rights to that spot. But in a situation like that, it doesn't matter what's "moral"--you can't win. An aggressively obnoxious person can always best me, because I am neither. Fortunately, most people aren't like that.
Last year, I booked a great site at a beach on Lake Superior in the UP of Michigan when the window opened 9-months previously.  I noticed the people next to us kept walking back and forth between their site and one that was three rows behind us.  On the 2nd morning, the matriarch of their family came over to inform me that they had been camping there every year for the last nine years and we were in one of their sites.  I smiled and graciously apologized.  She asked me when I had made the reservation and I told her at 8am, nine months ago, when the window opened, but not to worry; next year we would be somewhere else.  "It always helps to plan early," I said as she walked back to her site, a bit miffed.  Such is life. 
David and Marie Philbrick
Proud former 2017 27' MB Owners
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #16 –
Regarding "banter", if you scroll up to what Joan said in her post, it generally reflects what your co-moderators and I pursue in this forum, so I won't repeat it.

We respect everyone's opinion and welcome those opinions as long as "hot button" topics are avoided. I would encourage you all to avoid topics that lend themselves to bad-mouthing and griping, which often degenerate to nastiness and incivility. Please don't be offended or think it's personal if I shut down a topic that seems to have run it's course or appears (to me) to have the potential for getting out of hand. 

We all drift off topic, myself included; however, it's best to try to stay on the topic and theme of Lazy Dazes and RVing. 

Thanks,

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #17 –
That happened to us this year in backcountry Nevada. That's why we have Sons of Anarchy on speed dial. When we hear "We always camp here", we pull out the phone. After those guys make a few loops around their campfire, the show packs up.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #18 –
"...but the passions are so highly held that civil discourse breaks down so often and so quickly that we risk poisoning our..."

And for a prime example we need look no further than our Federal bureaucracy!   ::)
Steve S.
Lazy Bones & Cedar
2004 30'IB (Island Bed)
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery
Live for the day!
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #19 –
Quote from: Don Malpas  - 
That happened to us this year in backcountry Nevada. That's why we have Sons of Anarchy on speed dial. When we hear "We always camp here", we pull out the phone. After those guys make a few loops around their campfire, the show packs up.

Don, if I still owned a motorcycle, I'm pretty sure I could hang with this guy!


Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #20 –
Quote
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
    George Bernard Shaw

Fortunately, the unreasonable ones appear to still be a small minority.

On the subject of a  banter thread:   upon reflection and reading the comments,  I agree with Joan et al.  It would not fit with the accepted standards of decorum of the board.
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #21 –
Quote from: rich  - 
You could go with a 4th choice:


Let them know that your friends are coming soon, and there are at least a few dozen of them, and you are all overweight men who always choose that site because it gives them the privacy to enjoy the wilderness "au natural."  The family group is welcome to stay, but please don't mind the music or the scenery when the senior nude dance party starts around 10pm. 

If they seem indecisive, proceed to disrobe and set up the dance floor.
 
Rich
'03 MB in NC

Ladies and gentlemen we have a winner! Why didn't I think of that?

Edit:  Fifteen minutes later and my wife and I are still laughing and hoping this happens again so we can try at least a variance of option 4. We were thinking of just disrobing on the spot saying we are nudist. Hope this doesn't offended your children.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #22 –
Quote from: Jon & Loni  - 
I don’t think this topic was off-topic or otherwise inappropriate for this forum. There was an exchange of views, a bit of humor, and no political overtones. The only content that bothered me was the OP’s comment:

“On your second point I did hesitate to even broach this subject in a forum that seeks to be a community where disagreement is frowned on . . . . “

.  — Jon

I'm relatively new here and don't want to upset the equilibrium of the old timers and the way everyone gets along so well so I may be a bit over cautious at times. I myself enjoy deep philosophical discussion but I realize some people would rather avoid it and I want to respect their feelings. I'm one that can disagree agreeably but I realize anytime a subject is discussed that can initiate strong feelings there is always the risk of inciting riot so to speak and if mods would rather avoid that risk I perfectly understand.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #23 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
I'm relatively new here and don't want to upset the equilibrium of the old timers and the way everyone gets along so well so I may be a bit over cautious at times. I myself enjoy deep philosophical discussion but I realize some people would rather avoid it and I want to respect their feelings. I'm one that can disagree agreeably but I realize anytime a subject is discussed that can initiate strong feelings there is always the risk of inciting riot so to speak and if mods would rather avoid that risk I perfectly understand.
Thanks. You are in sync with the mods.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Campground bullies, a moral dilemma
Reply #24 –
"If they seem indecisive, proceed to disrobe and set up the dance floor.
 
Rich
'03 MB in NC"

I was sorely in need of an out-loud guffaw, but had to "Stifle it, Edith," lest I startle awake the 9 y/o in the back bunk...oooh, I do love a good riposte--now if my brain cells can just remember option 4 when I need it.   ;D

Thx for an interesting & chortle-inducing thread...

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm