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Water damage - what to do TODAY
We just purchased a 2002 Lazy Daze this week, which my husband drove home from Illinois. While driving back to Washington state (where we live), he discovered what looks like could be a major issue. There's some water damage near the back window, which appears to be both inside and out, from what I can tell.

I am scouring the forum and the Internet, and we will go to an RV shop later in the day, but I wanted to post to see if anyone has any advice on what to do today, before we are able to get any work done. We do not currently have covered parking, and living in Western Washington, it's of course rainy.

Here are some pics:

2002 MB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #1 –
Your back window is leaking, among other possible leaks.
The window frame may be leaking or the window glass to frame seal is bad, either way it's a serious problem.
TODAY you need to cover the entire rig with a big, blue trap until you can get it fixed.
If you have electric power available, dry the interior with an electric heater or two.
Did you buy it sight unseen?

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #2 –
I'm sorry that you're dealing with this.

My first priorities would be to:

(1) Stop additional water from getting in.  This could involve plastic and tape, finding a covered parking area (if you can), tilting the RV so water runs off in a different directions, or maybe  tarping the back while tilting the front down.

(2) Dry out whatever is there.  I'm talking a dehumidifier, fans, space heater, and probably opening up the already damaged inside wall so air can circulate and dry whatever structure is left.

Second, although it looks bad, there is no need to panic.  Water has likely been intruding for quite some time and another evening or even a few days probably isn't going to make that much of a difference.  You have a big project on your hands either way.

Best of luck,
Rich
'03 MB in NC
2003 MB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #3 –
Oh ohh.. I live in Illinois and by the photos, may have seen this unit in person within the last year when I heard the owners may have been selling it.
Just trying to be helpful here but if it is the same unit, leaking may be more extensive that just the rear window area.  The one I looked over had a weakened entry stair tread. The entry carpet, in addition to  looking soiled, also looked like it had been soaking wet and left to dry more than once.
The  green and white paint on the exterior was, I'll say "pocked" here and there all the way around the exterior, as in the photos you posted.
Hope I am not stepping out of bounds but If this might be the same unit you may want to have it professionally inspected, throughout.[/i]. 















'

LD  wannabe will be owner
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #4 –
My husband flew out to see it, along with my dad (who has owned an RV since I was 10 - and I am 44 now), who still lives in Illinois.

I pointed out the area on the back (near the ladder) when I saw the pics they sent to me, but I guess in person, they determined it was not too bad.

BUT, it is too bad, and, yeah.... there's more extensive damage, Happychi. I will see if I can figure out if there's the stair tread issue, although I did not notice that one.

We are the 3rd owners now, with the first being in Georgia.

We do have a big blue tarp, naturally, having camped in Washington before.

It's unfortunate and a costly mistake. My husband has been beating himself up about it all day. I'm gonna try to make the best of it, even though it's obviously no fun to deal with.
2002 MB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #5 –
Quote from: anichka  - 
My husband flew out to see it, along with my dad (who has owned an RV since I was 10 - and I am 44 now), who still lives in Illinois.

I pointed out the area on the back (near the ladder) when I saw the pics they sent to me, but I guess in person, they determined it was not too bad.

BUT, it is too bad, and, yeah.... there's more extensive damage, Happychi. I will see if I can figure out if there's the stair tread issue, although I did not notice that one.

We are the 3rd owners now, with the first being in Georgia.

We do have a big blue tarp, naturally, having camped in Washington before.

It's unfortunate and a costly mistake. My husband has been beating himself up about it all day. I'm gonna try to make the best of it, even though it's obviously no fun to deal with.
Thanks for sharing your pain with us. Others can learn from it. We hope as you dig into the problem it won't be too serious. What model '02 do you have?

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #6 –
Fortunately your LD is just a “thing “ and all things can be repaired.  On the other hand it seems to me that your husband made a solid decision about his DW.   Clearly your support is priceless while your husband blames himself. 

I’m glad that you found this LD neighborhood and I hope you visit often. 
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #7 –
Let Anichka's post be a reminder to all of us to check the sealants around the windows and other critical areas. It is so easy to overlook this before it is too late. Although the damage to our 2001 MB was minor and easy too repair it also was near the rear window. I hope that your husband is handy and can repair some of the damage himself, Anichka.
 
Aad
2001 MB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #8 –
If you got the LD for a good price it may be worth having the factory replace the rear of the motorhome. I could be wrong but I'm guessing it would only be a few thousand.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #9 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
If you got the LD for a good price it may be worth having the factory replace the rear of the motorhome. I could be wrong but I'm guessing it would only be a few thousand.
I would guess near 5-digits.

An aside, the wallpaper on the rear wall of our rig got wet, not from a water leak, but from condensation forming on the window frames. We thought nothing of it at the time. But later the glue started coming undone. Learn from us to ensure ventilation when heating the rig. It's not like SOB, it's pretty darn airtight.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #10 –
I don't believe there's any way to "guesstimate" the cost of repairs without a thorough assessment of the damage by a qualified facility/tech. Additionally, again depending on how severe/widespread the leak damage is, I believe that the job would be a lot more easily lashed up than done correctly. I suggest that the owners might want to start by calling Vince at the factory; I can't think that there would be any way to even get a clue as to the extent of repairs needed or the cost to do them without a comprehensive personal inspection, but he may be able to get a limited idea from multiple, close-up, detailed photos of all of the visible damage.

From what I understand, the factory is very busy, and there are long lead times for repairs, but Vince would be the best source of information, even if the owners decided to find a local-to-them shop to do the work. 

YMMV.

2003 TK has a new home
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Joan  - 
I don't believe there's any way to "guesstimate" the cost of repairs without a thorough assessment of the damage by a qualified facility/tech. Additionally, again depending on how severe/widespread the leak damage is, I believe that the job would be a lot more easily lashed up than done correctly. I suggest that the owners might want to start by calling Vince at the factory; I can't think that there would be any way to even get a clue as to the extent of repairs needed or the cost to do them without a comprehensive personal inspection, but he may be able to get a limited idea from multiple, close-up, detailed photos of all of the visible damage.

From what I understand, the factory is very busy, and there are long lead times for repairs, but Vince would be the best source of information, even if the owners decided to find a local-to-them shop to do the work. 

YMMV.


That's something I've been curious about with the LD. It's not one of the big outfits like Jayco and I have wondered if damaged  in collision if local RV repair shops could even do the work. Is LD good about coooperating and sending parts to outside repair facilities? For many of us a trip to the factory is financially and logistically difficult if not impossible.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #12 –
Quote from: Sawyer  - 
That's something I've been curious about with the LD. It's not one of the big outfits like Jayco and I have wondered if damaged  in collision if local RV repair shops could even do the work. Is LD good about coooperating and sending parts to outside repair facilities? For many of us a trip to the factory is financially and logistically difficult if not impossible.

The only unusual parts on an LD are the exterior walls, which are covered with bonded sheet aluminum. with the ends of the aluminum sheets having Factory end bends that interlock with the other panels.
LD may be able to ship bonded repair panels as whole sheets. They are willing ship repair parts, it's part of their business.

Having LD repair the rear wall is going to be very expensive. LD does not like doing incomplete work, they insist that the repaired product looks and to be as good as new. With a damaged rear wall, where the aluminum needs replacing,  LD will want to remove the entire roof, since it's a one piece sheet from the front of the roof, down to the rear bumper..
With shop time over $100 an hour, this could end up costing many thousands of dollars, something Don has already pointed out.
I would make spot repairs on the aluminum if it has holes that penetrate the skin, replacing the rear wall's aluminum skin  would be a huge project, not worth it on a 17 year old RV.

You are probably better off either finding a local shop to open the interior rear wall and to rebuild the damaged framing and reseat the rear window .
You can also take your time and do the repairs yourself, it isn't rocket science. This would save you a lot of money if you are able to do this, the tools and materials needed are not all that expensive.
As I mentioned before, the three-piece rear window is known to leak,  around the glass on older rigs, where the rubber molding has dried and shrunk.
While it's not practical to rebuild the window, individual glass panes can be sealed using a special, thinned silicone, made for this purpose.
Amazon.com: Permatex 81730 Flowable Silicone Windshield and Glass Sealer,...

Larry
As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #13 –
I would call the place in Tacoma  named Genesis as they fixed our leak in the cab. A common problem with ford truck cabs. They dried the rig out and then systematically poured water on it to find the leak. Then dryed it again did the repair and then tested it. Takes a while but well worth it to have it professionally done. They do this for a living and have seen it all. They also followed up several times to make sure their work was good. They do the full range of repairs and upgrades too.
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #14 –
I just found a leak around my rear window and have removed the wall and some of the rotten wood around the window.  I am feeling better as it is not as extensive as I thought but I have to replace some of the framing and the wall.  It is a mess now but salvageable.  Crystal
2001 30' IB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #15 –

In LDs, that are less than twenty years old, I find more leaks and rot in the rear wall and end caps.
The rear window is mounted on a slope, which slows down the descent of rain water, letting it pool on the top pf the window frame.
As the rig ages, the window frame sealant shrinks, foaming a trench, or grove, on top of the window, where water sits
All it takes is a slight break in the sealant to soak and rot the window framing.

Looking under the wall, from beneath the rear bumper, you can see the bottom of the wall. If major rot is present, you will usually find the bottom piece of wood, hidden behind a thin layer of sealant, is rotted part or the entire way across the rear.
Once water enters the interior of the rear wall, the sealed bottom prevents the water from draining out.
Probing with an icepick will find any soft spots. The bottom wood piece is either a 2X4 or 2X2,. A rotted one can be pried out, either whole or in pieces and replaced from below. A small rotted section can be replaced without removing the whole bottom piece.
An oscillating tool, with a universal wood/metal blade, is perfect for cutting out the rotted sections, from below and in the wall framing.
Rockwell RK5132K 3.5 Amp Sonicrafter F30 Oscillating Multi-Tool with 32...
1-3/8" Bi-Metal Universal Saw Blade - Bosch Multi-X - Select by Multi Tool

Gaps in the end caps can let in rain water. The wood behind the end caps, on newer rigs, is better sealed, behind the end caps, but eventually the added sealant will fail.

Larry

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #16 –
Thanks everyone! So much helpful info on this thread, both for our current situation and future reference.

We have gotten a few estimates so far. My husband called the factory on Friday, and their outside estimate to replace the whole back wall was 5K (3-5K range). This was the best estimate so far. Will definitely talk to the shop in Tacoma mentioned on this thread.  We'll probably use this as a good opportunity to get rid of the carpet in the back, too :-).

Despite all this, we're still very happy to finally have one, and we'll be taking her out the next three weekends!

Chris - we got a 26.5 MB TK.
2002 MB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #17 –
Quote from: anichka  - 
Thanks everyone! So much helpful info on this thread, both for our current situation and future reference.

We have gotten a few estimates so far. My husband called the factory on Friday, and their outside estimate to replace the whole back wall was 5K (3-5K range). This was the best estimate so far. Will definitely talk to the shop in Tacoma mentioned on this thread.  We'll probably use this as a good opportunity to get rid of the carpet in the back, too :-).

Despite all this, we're still very happy to finally have one, and we'll be taking her out the next three weekends!

Chris - we got a 26.5 MB TK.
That sounds like a very reasonable price and if the rest of the rig is in good shape well worth doing. Good luck and let us know about the shop in Tacoma's estimate too. I'm really interested in the ability of outside sources to do major repairs on the LD with it's unique aluminum and plastic parts.
Discuss anything with anyone and disagree agreeably. Always be polite and respectful.
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #18 –
Most RV shops have never seen or worked on a Lazy Daze, the unique construction methods may throw them.
You need to have the rig inspected in-person by the shop(s) before coming up with a reasonable and reliable estimate.
I have no idea how this could be done online or over the phone, I couldn't do it.

How bad or good the situation is will not be known until the damaged, inner wall paneling has been removed to show how extensive the damage is. 
You might remove it yourself before getting estimates, the paneling will need to be replaced anyway.
A water test should be done on the rear widow, to determine if the rubber seals have gone bad.
If there are holes in the aluminum skin, that penetrate all the way through, it becomes a much more serious repair.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #19 –
So Larry you are suggesting using the Permatex flowable silicone on the rubber seal to the window glass?  What is the best sealent to use from the window rubber seal to the aluminum walls?  I used the calk suggested by the Mothership and it is now black with road grime which will not wash off.  I am planning to strip and cut it out to apply something better, maybe 3M 5200?

          Karen~Liam
             98 ~ MB
                NinA
1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
 
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #20 –
Again, just trying to be helpful here.
Sawyer said "... if the rest of the rig is in good shape well worth doing."

In my opinion, if this is the same unit which my wife & I went to inspect earlier this year, and from the pictures it sure looks like it is, succinctly put, it is not.

In business I was a real estate appraiser for several decades.  Before ever entering a building I would inspect the property from the exterior.  I also spent years in the automobile business where I was responsible for inspecting to determine value of any trade-in vehicles.  This also started on the exterior.
Upon completion of my "walk-around" on the LD unit which we viewed in Northern Illinois, I came very close to not even going inside to inspect the interior, the exterior, in my opinion, did not warrant it.  In my opinion, there was no panel, front, rear, quarter nor side,  that did not exhibit some form of problem, the most common being the exterior paint which was "pocked" or bubbled-up from under the paint. It looked much like a car which had paint in tact but was rusting from under the paint creating bubbles and pocking.  The exterior green color was not true; having lived in Southern California during my college years,  and having spent time in the Arizona desert, it had the tinge, I'll say, of being sun burned in areas.  Later the seller told me it had been parked at a beach state park every year from the time the snow left upper Illinois until late Fall.  From Fall until the following Spring, it sat outside in our Upper Illinois winters.
It was green & white, but not LD green. I wondered why.  I saw evidence that it had been re-painted.  I climbed up the ladder which may not have been original and saw evidence of it being an outside in all kinds of weather unit, with re-sealing here and there which looked like it was performed by someone who did not know what they were doing.

When my wife & I entered the unit I remember thinking, the collar matches the cuff.  This did not exhibit any sign of it being a used, but well loved unit.  Rather, it exhibited signs of it being a well used, little if ever cared-for or maintained unit, with little or no pride of ownership throughout.
Of note; at the time we viewed it, it was not yet for sale.  The owners were going to sell it but not until after they "cleaned it up" to ready it for sale.  We kind of talked our way into being able to view it in advance of it going on the open market, so in cleanliness & organization, etc., it may have looked better when the sellers eventually put it on the market.

After inspecting the unit and thanking the person who let us view it for the opportunity to see their unit, we left.
Over the years my wife and I have owned a couple of different motor homes and three different Airstream trailers.  In each instance we did not buy the first one we saw, but instead viewed many or several before landing on one.
Upon pulling away, my wife and I agreed, this was the worst overall condition RV unit we have ever seen.
If it were half the price  we were told they would be asking, we would not have bought it.  In our opinion, the "cost to cure" would still be too much.  If it were any amount less than half what we told they would like to get, neither my wife nor I would have been swayed.  The unit we saw, in our opinion was one to avoid, period.

Good and well meaning advise has been offered on this thread as I've come to see happens often here on the LD Forum.  My wife and I are not yet LD owners but believe we will find our unit one of these days.  We joined this forum when we decided to give LD a good hard look.  We like what we see in LD the brand and see a very valuable resource as well as place of friendship here at this LD Forum.

I thought long and hard before writing this.  It is surely not my desire to hurt anichka or anyone in the family or to make anyone feel bad about their purchase.

Instead, I see genuine help and suggestions being offered by good intention-ed people but, I may be the only one who has actually seen and done an inspection of this unit in-person.

anichka, I speak to you here.  First of all, this may not be the unit I viewed; I would be glad to communicate, off-forum, about the selling location/ selling party, etc. to determine if it is the same unit.  Also,  if it is, I may be wrong about what it would take to cure the woes. 
However,  if it is the same unit, I would strongly suggest if not implore you to have it inspected top to bottom before putting any more money into it.  I would suggest having it inspected by someplace that knows motorhomes, but, they may just see a money maker and encourage you to put more money into it now, knowing more will come. 
It may very well be in your best interest to make a trip to the LD factory to let them assess the unit and what costs you may have coming down the pipe, beyond that of just the window leak.  It may be a trip that could save you money and future aggravation.

Now, I've said enough.  Again, I am just hoping to be helpful, not in any way hurtful.


LD  wannabe will be owner
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #21 –
Quote from: Karen & Liam  - 
So Larry you are suggesting using the Permatex flowable silicone on the rubber seal to the window glass?  What is the best sealent to use from the window rubber seal to the aluminum walls?  I used the calk suggested by the Mothership and it is now black with road grime which will not wash off.  I am planning to strip and cut it out to apply something better, maybe 3M 5200

The flowable Permatex was designed for sealing window glass to the frame's rubber molding.  Do not use it to seal the window frame to the exterior wall. This is the only application on the coach where I would use a silicone sealant.
Different variations of silicone are used for sealing mechanical components in the driveline.

To reseal the perimeter of the window frame to the exterior walls, I use 3M 5200 Fast Cure. You night notice I always suggest the Fast Cure version, it skims over with 30 minutes and is usable the next day. It's cheaper in the 14-oz tubes, for big jobs.

Regular 5200 takes day or two skim and up to a week to cure. You must not touch it for several days because it stays sticky.
The Factory uses other brands of polyurethane that cost less but, IMO, they do not measure up to the 3M 5200 FC. YMMV

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #22 –
Not sure if my comment will satisfy anyone, but here goes:

RVs are complicated toys subject to significant depreciation, service, maintenance and operating costs. Since RVs rank among the highest of discretionary items, these types of issues definitely rate as classic "1st world problems".

Secondly, RVs are for the most part poorly made. Practically the entire industry customer class is based on point-of-sale impulse buyers. There are countless YT videos of displeased buyers watching their new(ish) RVs come apart at the seams. LD stands out as unique in this regard, but even so are subject to their own types of systemic issues. The first, of course is water damage, but the other is chassis wear and tear.

That's because LDs are made from wooden frames in order to support the large, oversize coach windows that we all love which delivers the highest interior experience in its class. That's why it not only makes water intrusion problematic, but also subjects the running gear - engine, transmission, etc - to higher levels of load and stress.

The end result is that even rigs maintained with the highest level of care are eventually subject to the same laws of physics that cause problems with more casual LD owners (though perhaps more diligent than typical RV owners). We can point to the former board moderator, and perhaps the most informed owner/user of all, as two primary examples of those who have experienced these kinds of problems.

So, the bottom line really comes down to use and enjoyment vis-a-vis alternative options. In this case, let's say the rig is worth $25k, but was purchased for $35k. Now, is a $10k delta that big of a deal, in comparison to the large hits taken in the first 5 years of any new vehicle, auto, truck or RV?

Secondly, if you own a primary residence, the ongoing appreciation will simply dwarf almost any/all major expenditures, outside of medical bills. (And these too can/should be offset by insurance coverage.) So, in the big scheme of things, does it really matter?

Bottom line? Stop worrying about it. Get it dried out, apply a few gallons of sealant (exaggerating, but I think you get the point) and have fun. Drive it, use it, and accept that practically all LDs suffer water damage of some kind, and just go with the program.
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #23 –
Hi Crystal. I would appreciate a picture of the insides of your rear wall, with or without the rot and the repairs. I had to do the same with another brand of MH before I got my LD. Just curiosity on my part. i didn't remember you, so I looked through your old posts, wow seven years ago!  Good to hear from you.  RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Water damage - what to do TODAY
Reply #24 –
Hi,

I think this is first post here and before I ask a question, bit about us ...

Only two of empty nesters in mid/late 50s and recently retired. Doing research for quite some time and I think I zeroed in on 24 ft LD model (most probably TK but we are open and final decision after visiting CA) from final list including Sprinter based Sportsmobile and Tiger Bengal. Of course I am dreaming on how we will use the new vehicle but LD is a good fit for at least 5 years and my research tell me that I will avoid quality issues going with LD. We want to pick the new LD in July 2020 and Toadd asked me to call him in 8 months.

I thought new LD will not have any leakage issue for 10 years and if I end up keeping LD for 10 years, perhaps a visit to CA will solve any future water leak issue for next 10 years. True?

I did not read about LD putting additional strain on the Ford Chassis, is this specific to LD? Can you please point me to right direction to read more on this.

Thanks

Quote from: snerf  - 

That's because LDs are made from wooden frames in order to support the large, oversize coach windows that we all love which delivers the highest interior experience in its class. That's why it not only makes water intrusion problematic, but also subjects the running gear - engine, transmission, etc - to higher levels of load and stress.