Outlet pretty much burned up November 03, 2018, 11:30:34 pm I had an outlet pretty much burn up a little while ago - as in about an hour ago. (2004, 31’, rear twin). I use the outlet by the sink, it’s the one that’s located just above the fuse panel, for a cat waterer and a plug-in that diffuses oil (Feliway). Waterer uses 200mA, diffuser uses 5 watts (~42mA). I have noticed over the past couple of days that the outlet was warm, but not hot. Tonight I smelled an electrical burn going on and when I touched the items plugged into the outlet they were super hot, and the outlet faceplate screw was too hot to even touch. I immediately unplugged the devices but the faceplate was still hot. After a minute or so I heard that telltale cracking and snapping sound, and then I actually saw little sparks coming out of the blade slots of the outlet. I’ve pulled the outlet out of the junction box to let it cool down, it was too hot to even touch more than a second or two...just dealt with the heat to get the outlet out of the box. Both sides of the outlet itself are clearly charred. I have not taken the wires off the outlet yet. I have turned off the breaker for all of the outlets in the RV. I’m currently plugged in to shore power, not sure if I’m on a 15 or 20 amp line. I am using a surge protector at the point of power.If I were in a house I’d change the outlet out, determine if any of the other outlets were possibly problematic, and if not, check the breaker, and call it done. BUT, I don’t know if RV wiring is the same as a house. There looks to be at least three different strands of romex coming into (or out of) the box. I don’t understand why the RV breaker didn’t trip, the one for the outlets. Am I ok to just replace that outlet (I’ll probably have to strip some of the wire back, too). Or at the minimum, take it off and put on wire nuts for now? I’ll have to figure something out for the waterer. I live in here full time, so I do need my outlets. What else do I need to be looking at? Thanks!
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #1 – November 04, 2018, 12:40:50 am PhylanaAre your other outlets working as they should? If the others are okay then perhaps the fault was with the one that burned. It could have been caused by a loose wire connection... loose wire = high resistance = heat = burning! Or it may have been caused by one of the devices you had plugged into that outlet.When you have daylight and a clear head take a good look at the damage. You may discover the point of ignition. Then, and only after you have tripped the breaker for the outlets (and checked to confirm that they are disabled) you can replace the damaged outlet just as you would in a house. Keep us posted on your progress. 2 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #2 – November 04, 2018, 01:12:20 am Most likely, the wires connected to the receptacle loosened. Loose wires can lead to arcing and a lot of heat.The 120-VAC wiring in your LD is like the wiring at home, with a hot, neutral and ground wires .After disconnecting all sources of 120-VAC power, remove the receptacle and take a look and see if the receptacle is burned up. If so, replace with a standard 20-amp receptacle, keeping the wire's polarity the same on the new receptacle.Be safe, if you have any doubts, have a pro change it.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #3 – November 04, 2018, 01:17:44 am Lazy Bones, thanks for confirming my thoughts. From what I could tell the other outlets seemed ok, but I wasn’t able to check them all. Tomorrow will be a thorough check of each one. I did turn the breaker back on just to see what would happen and that particular outlet is still snapping and crackling. Turned it back off, for tonight all the outlets will not be powered. I’ll be sleeping with one eye open I can tell ya. Thanks! Fingers crossed it’s just a new outlet to fix. 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #4 – November 04, 2018, 01:22:46 am The outlet is toasted on both sides; all four screws are charred, and some of the wires are melted at the outlet. Definitely will have to replace the outlet, just not sure if there’s anything else I need to be checking, aside from ensuring that the other outlets work ok. I’ll need to verify if it’s a 15 amp or 20 amp outlet. It’s an old one, probably an original one.Thanks!
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #5 – November 04, 2018, 01:00:53 am I vote with Steve and Larry. I think you had an issue at the outlet or the wire connections at that point.While there are some cases of an outlet line being overloaded (too many watts drawn for the breaker) and the breaker not flipping off - the cases I know about all involve a known bad home electrical panel (known to not flip breakers when it should have).The only other thing I can think of is if the wires are touching / rubbing somewhere else - such as a splice in the wire elsewhere that has come loose. I would not expect to see that in a lazydaze.To make yourself feel more confident, I would suggest testing each outlet (both top and bottom at each receptacle) with a standard tester to confirm all looks ok. (Not testing the bad receptacle until after you replace it).Make sure to get a gfci outlet tester if you have any gfci breakers/outlets (gfci testers test regular outlets also).Let us know how it goes. JaneSent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #6 – November 04, 2018, 01:07:19 am Quote from: JandS2 - November 04, 2018, 01:00:53 amTo make yourself feel more confident, I would suggest testing each outlet (both top and bottom at each receptacle) with a standard tester to confirm all looks ok. (Not testing the bad receptacle until after you replace it).Older LDs can have many loose electrical wires, it wouldn't be a bad idea to check all the receptacles and the connections inside the Power Center. As usual, make sure all the power is disconnected before proceeding.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #7 – November 04, 2018, 03:34:27 am Hi Phylana; I'm sure that there was something wrong with just that outlet. As Larry said, it is quite easy for an older rig to have loose connections, and that could have caused that burning. The fact that it didn't trip the breaker shows that it wasn't over current, so it was a poor connection at the outlet. Commonly the outlet is an active part of passing current through and on to another part of the circuit. If there is more than one white wire, and more than one black wire on that outlet, one pair is incoming, and one pair(s) is outgoing. Other outlets should be fine. You need a 15 Amp outlet. A 20 Amp outlet has a peculiar neutral lead slot that has a perpendicular part that looks like a 'T'. An appliance that requires 20 Amps by itself will have a plug with the hot lead normally aligned, and the neutral lead at a right angle. 20 amp outlet vs 15 - Google Search The circuits are usually located in industrial areas, garages and such. I don't think you will find any of these outlets in motorhomes. Except for the air conditioner, and microwave, all of your interior outlets (and any exterior outlets) run off of the GFCI breaker in your electrical panel. It is the one with a test button. Pushing that will shut off all of your easily accessible outlets, except for the other half of the one your microwave is plugged into. As Jane mentioned an outlet tester will show you that your outlets are wired correctly, and pushing the tester's button will trip your GFCI. You'll get a lot of practice resetting that breaker. Ideal 61-501 GFCI Receptacle Tester [IDL-61-501] : Electrical Testers -... . RonB 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #8 – November 04, 2018, 08:47:02 am Keep in mind, buy the good one don't skimp. The type that have push in connections aren't the best choice. Make sure you strip the wires back to good copper. When they get hot they discolor and melt the insulation. Cut the wires back or you will be doing it again. Sounds like your problem was maybe just a bad outlet. Funny you should have this problem, I noticed when I bought the new to us motor home that the outlet above the stove area had also been replaced. 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #9 – November 04, 2018, 12:35:59 pm "The fact that it didn't trip the breaker shows that it wasn't over current"Right. This is something I didn't understand for some years: a circuit breaker does NOT necessarily protect you from a fire, as you've just seen. Yes, if two wires short together, it'll trip. Or if you try to run your microwave oven and air conditioner at the same time (25 amps on a 15 amp circuit), it'll trip. But when you have a wire that's loose on its terminal and it starts to get hot due to poor contact, there's no short and there's no excessive current, so the breaker won't know about it.As Larry suggested, it's a good idea to check the tightness of ALL your connections--especially the ones inside the power center, which are notorious for loosening and overheating. 2 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #10 – November 04, 2018, 03:33:27 pm Update: I replaced the outlet with a new 15 amp receptacle, which was the same as was installed originally. I have plugged my two original items back in and am testing them now to see if they get warm. So far they haven’t. I also plugged in items to my other outlets and am testing them for heat.In looking at all of my visible outlets it appears that they are all15 amp. I’ve checked each outlet with a GFCI Outlet Tester, including the one I just replaced. Even though none of the outlets are GFCI outlets I did go ahead and test that for each outlet. It tripped each time. I did find that all of the outlets are wired with the hot and ground/neutral wires reversed. Is that an RV thing?As of now, unless that outlet heats back up my assumption is that it’s just that one receptacle that went bad. If I can figure out how to post a pic on here I’ll show what it looks like. Not what one wants to see, especially in an RV. I’m going to call LD tomorrow to see if there’s anything else I need to do. Thanks all for your input! It’s nice having my original thoughts and plan of attack validated.
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #11 – November 04, 2018, 03:34:47 pm Are you talking about opening up the panel and checking those wires? Thanks!
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #12 – November 04, 2018, 03:52:39 pm "I did find that all of the outlets are wired with the hot and ground/neutral wires reversed. Is that an RV thing?"----I am sure waiting for the "sparky savvy" folks to answer this one! 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #13 – November 04, 2018, 05:03:47 pm Quote"I did find that all of the outlets are wired with the hot andground/neutral wires reversed. Is that an RV thing?"Ok - that would get my attention. Mine were all wired correctly - but colors of wires were different than typical house colors used - I forget if that was 12v or 120v as I did both (I figured automobile colors maybe).I would check that out - depending how they were made (year, brand) that might not be good. Things have changed over the decades so I can't say if it is an issue for your outlets .... if I remember right (and I would never rely on my memory for this issue) over the decades some didn't matter ( just passes the electricity along and as long as you were consistent in how you wired up that receptacle you were ok) and some did - or at least that is what I remember electricians telling me over time - again I would not trust my memory on this. I know I have seen older ones with no markings to indicate the hot wire location. A call to the manufacturer would get the best answer.FYI - Wire colors mean nothing - it is just insulation color. The idea is to help color code them but installers/repairers can grab something handy rather than stick to the standard colors so I ALWAYS test for hot to confirm (don't make assumptions with electricity or zaps happen). Same with the panel notes that says what breaker goes where. Never trust that in a house and keep that grain of salt around for an RV (simpler but if changes were made over time or ....).Yes Andy Is talking about the wires connections in the power centers.Also might be a good idea to make your main breaker a gfci breaker so you have that protection in all wet areas of the RV (kitchen bathroom roof/wall/window leaks). Ours was older and also didn't come with any gfci..Jane wrote: Quote"I did find that all of the outlets are wired with the hot andground/neutral wires reversed. Is that an RV thing?"----Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #14 – November 04, 2018, 05:20:59 pm While it sounds like either a bad outlet or loose wires at the outlet, I am puzzled by one thing. You said the devices that were plugged in were hot. That suggests to me that those devices had a problem. If the wiring were loose, that would reduce the power available to the devices. With some things, (motors, etc) reduced voltage due to a loose connection could lead to higher amperage as the device tries to pull the watts it needs, but I am suspicious that something in one or both devices might have been the thing that triggered failure of the outlet. I recommend that you check the two devices, perhaps by plugging them in individually to another outlet somewhere and monitor them for heat generation.Another thing - if I understood your post, you pulled the outlet BEFORE shutting off the breaker. If so, in the future, don't do that. With ANY electrical issue, make turning off the breaker your first step. A shorting outlet could cause your pulling it to be a truly shocking experience. ;-)Ken F in NM 2 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #15 – November 04, 2018, 06:05:20 pm Oh no, I know better than to pull an outlet out before I turn the power off. I’ve done way too much wiring to do that. I don’t like getting bit. 😉I’ll move the devices to another outlet to test for heat, but my guess is that they were hot because the outlet was burning up, and it transferred that heat to the device plug ins. 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #16 – November 04, 2018, 06:10:22 pm I plan on asking the guys at LD tomorrow about that reversal thing. That is definitely bothersome to me.I’ll also ask about GFCI protection. The outlet in the direct kitchen sink area and in the bathroom are located on the under side of the shelves above the sinks. Pretty slim chance of water being an issue there. But still worth asking about.Thanks for the great info!
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #17 – November 04, 2018, 07:24:34 pm It's hard to tell but the white is on the neutral side and the hot is where it should be. They appear to be feeding other outlets off of this one. Those darned push ins should be outlawed on outlets. Did they have a ground hooked up? Makes me want to go check ours.
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #18 – November 05, 2018, 02:23:01 am Hi Phylana; you wrote: "I did find that all of the outlets are wired with the hot and ground/neutral wires reversed. Is that an RV thing?" No Absolutely not. National Electrical Codes require certain things. (As Jane noted, the color of the insulation on a wire doesn't change the function of the copper wire, but those conventions are to keep everybody on the same page, and help detect and/or prevent mistakes) The codes are meant to help everything to be done in uniform standard ways and help to ensure safety. For that reason, standard house and RV wiring methods must adhere to the codes. For 110 VAC, the black wire is the 'hot', and no that's not temperature, but refers to having dangerous voltage on it. An outlet has brass colored screws that go to the black insulation wires. the two slots for the plug, the shorter one is the 'hot' one. The wider(longer) slot is the neutral, has silver colored screws, and connects to the white insulated wires. The third 'U' shaped and longer pin in the outlet is for the ground wire. The wire can be bare, or have green insulation. The screw on the outlet can be bare brass, or greenish tinted to denote ground. The grounds are connected in the electrical distribution box to the neutral, but only there. There should never be any current flowing through the grounds except when something is seriously wrong! If your outlets are really connected wrong, they must all be fixed for everyone's safety, and my peace of mind. I agree with JonS that the 'stick in' wiring method is not as desireable as other wiring 'capture' methods. People using that type of wiring often don't know that you are supposed to pull hard on the wire at each hole to make sure that the internal clamp has gripped onto the bare wire. The grip digs in and assures a gas tight non oxidizing connection. Many times I've re-done house wiring that just pulled right out of the outlet holes. Good connections are possible, and to get a wire out without pushing the release in will usually destroy the outlet, and the wire. Outlets that are protected by that GFCI breaker in your distribution box aren't any different. They just are wired through that breaker. You could replace each branch breaker with a GFCI type, but the A/C is wired by itself, so there is no hazard to you. (It is UL certified and listed) The outlet that has your microwave plugged into half of it, I believe isn't GFCI protected. Mine is hidden in a cabinet in back of the microwave, so isn't much of a hazard. All of your other outlets should go through that one GFCI breaker. So when you plugged that tester into each of your outlets, it should have alerted you if the wiring was really reversed. When you pushed the test button on that plug in tester, the GFCI in your distribution box should trip, for each outlet. I hope this made things a little clearer. (I'm not going to bring up 'tamper resistant outlets' or 'Arc fault breakers'! RonB 4 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #19 – November 05, 2018, 01:23:08 pm Quote from: RonB - November 05, 2018, 02:23:01 amHi Phylana; you wrote: "I did find that all of the outlets are wired with the hot and ground/neutral wires reversed. Is that an RV thing?" No Absolutely not. National Electrical Codes require certain things. (As Jane noted, the color of the insulation on a wire doesn't change the function of the copper wire, but those conventions are to keep everybody on the same page, and help detect and/or prevent mistakes) The codes are meant to help everything to be done in uniform standard ways and help to ensure safety. For that reason, standard house and RV wiring methods must adhere to the codes. For 110 VAC, the black wire is the 'hot', and no that's not temperature, but refers to having dangerous voltage on it. An outlet has brass colored screws that go to the black insulation wires. the two slots for the plug, the shorter one is the 'hot' one. The wider(longer) slot is the neutral, has silver colored screws, and connects to the white insulated wires. The third 'U' shaped and longer pin in the outlet is for the ground wire. The wire can be bare, or have green insulation. The screw on the outlet can be bare brass, or greenish tinted to denote ground. The grounds are connected in the electrical distribution box to the neutral, but only there. There should never be any current flowing through the grounds except when something is seriously wrong! If your outlets are really connected wrong, they must all be fixed for everyone's safety, and my peace of mind. I agree with JonS that the 'stick in' wiring method is not as desireable as other wiring 'capture' methods. People using that type of wiring often don't know that you are supposed to pull hard on the wire at each hole to make sure that the internal clamp has gripped onto the bare wire. The grip digs in and assures a gas tight non oxidizing connection. Many times I've re-done house wiring that just pulled right out of the outlet holes. Good connections are possible, and to get a wire out without pushing the release in will usually destroy the outlet, and the wire. Outlets that are protected by that GFCI breaker in your distribution box aren't any different. They just are wired through that breaker. You could replace each branch breaker with a GFCI type, but the A/C is wired by itself, so there is no hazard to you. (It is UL certified and listed) The outlet that has your microwave plugged into half of it, I believe isn't GFCI protected. Mine is hidden in a cabinet in back of the microwave, so isn't much of a hazard. All of your other outlets should go through that one GFCI breaker. So when you plugged that tester into each of your outlets, it should have alerted you if the wiring was really reversed. When you pushed the test button on that plug in tester, the GFCI in your distribution box should trip, for each outlet. I hope this made things a little clearer. (I'm not going to bring up 'tamper resistant outlets' or 'Arc fault breakers'! RonBA worthy candidate for the Companion, methinks! Thanks, Ron 1 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #20 – November 05, 2018, 09:02:10 pm Ron, thanks for the superb detail!!!! I am definitely bookmarking this for future reference!I have talked to Vince and all’s well. On the GFCI Tester I was using the legend on it is so faint that what I thought I was seeing as problem lights, were in fact “Correct” polarity lights. I couldn’t even see the different shades of pale yellow on the dang thing until I put it under my phone’s magnifying glass. Doh! I even took the tester back to Menards and had them check one of their outlets; I had confidence that Menards would be wired correctly. I have virtually zero confidence in the wiring here where I live and am plugged in! So, long story short, new outlet is in and seems to be working fine. I wired the new outlet exactly as the previous one, which did use the push in as well as the side screws. I did pull back on the wires pretty vigorously to ensure they were in the grip securely. I’ll check that periodically just to make sure, and I’ll be pulling the other outlets as well to check them. I’ll also check behind the Converter panel to verify that all’s well behind the panel, too. I suspect that everything is fine and that I caught the bad outlet in time. If not, well I’ll address it then and may be back for more help!Thank you all for your help and suggestions! 2 Likes
Re: Outlet pretty much burned up Reply #21 – November 06, 2018, 12:03:38 am "I have talked to Vince and all's well."What did Vince have to say about you're presumed polarity problem?
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