Marker/Clearance Lights Troubleshooting

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Marker/Clearance Lights Troubleshooting

August 07, 2018, 09:08:29 am

I don't know enough about this to even formulate a coherent question, so I used photos. I am going on the assumption that the problem is with the fuses. The only places I found fuse 'boxes' were under the dash on driver side and in the inverter box... pretty sure the inverter fuses are not involved, but just in case.

All the lights shown worked when I got the unit in Jan 2018. They are the same as shown when the ignition is in 'accessories' position and when the engine is running, (after turning on the headlights).

ALL the other exterior lights work, to include, the side lights, tail lights, back up lights, brake lights, tag light,, head lights and high beams. The dash lights also work.

Don't know if it is pertinent, but the battery died and was replaced in early June. (Battery died because I left the ignition switch in the 'accessories' position.)

I do not have an owner's manual so I have no idea which fuses are related to which systems.

Can anyone tell me ;
1) if I am on the right track thinking it is fuse related
2) what the lights shown are called (so I have a clue as to what to google up)
3) where I might find information on which fuses are related to which systems (schematic)
4) if it is not fuse related, where should I start looking
5) if there are other fuse 'boxes' I missed.

Photos 1 and 2 show;
the lights that are out.

Photos 3 and 4 show;
The two places I found fuse "boxes".

Photo 5 shows,
current battery and hook up

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #1 – August 07, 2018, 11:49:18 am

Quote from: Alice - August 07, 2018, 09:08:29 am

I don't know enough about this to even formulate a coherent question, so I used photos. I am going on the assumption that the problem is with the fuses. The only places I found fuse 'boxes' were under the dash on driver side and in the inverter box... pretty sure the inverter fuses are not involved, but just in case.

All the lights shown worked when I got the unit in Jan 2018. They are the same as shown when the ignition is in 'accessories' position and when the engine is running, (after turning on the headlights).

ALL the other exterior lights work, to include, the side lights, tail lights, back up lights, brake lights, tag light,, head lights and high beams. The dash lights also work.

Don't know if it is pertinent, but the battery died and was replaced in early June. (Battery died because I left the ignition switch in the 'accessories' position.)

I do not have an owner's manual so I have no idea which fuses are related to which systems.

Can anyone tell me ;
1) if I am on the right track thinking it is fuse related
2) what the lights shown are called (so I have a clue as to what to google up)
3) where I might find information on which fuses are related to which systems (schematic)
4) if it is not fuse related, where should I start looking
5) if there are other fuse 'boxes' I missed.

Photos 1 and 2 show;
the lights that are out.

Photos 3 and 4 show;
The two places I found fuse "boxes".

Photo 5 shows,
current battery and hook up

Were it fuse related, all the lights (called marker lights) would be out. Have you checked the bulbs to see if they are burned out?

Chris

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #2 – August 07, 2018, 12:06:49 pm

Quote from: Chris Horst - August 07, 2018, 11:49:18 am

Were it fuse related, all the lights (called marker lights) would be out. Have you checked the bulbs to see if they are burned out?

That is what I would assume too. The running light often are not bad, their connection to the socket is dirty or not making contact.
Use a ladder, to access the lights, snap of the covers and wiggle the bulbs. Have a few replacements too, they do burn out.
Make sure to coat the lamp's contacts with dielectric grease to reduce future problems.

You could also check for voltage at the lamp's contacts using a 12-volt two light or voltmeter..

FYI, there should be another fuse box under the hood, on the driver's side.

Larry

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #3 – August 07, 2018, 02:11:24 pm

"That is what I would assume too."

All that Larry said and more...! And while you are at it, those bulbs are available as LEDs. Now would be the time to make changes.

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #4 – August 07, 2018, 03:24:27 pm

You might also want to check the running light lenses for cracks or chips or UV damage around the edge; these are not usually visible unless one is very close to the light and/or pulls off the lens to examine it. If the lens is cracked or doesn't snap it tightly, water and dirt and can enter and cause the light to fail.

New lenses are cheap; after checking the bulbs (or replacing them with LEDs), cleaning the entire fixture, and greasing the bulb base, you might want to replace the lenses.

This site offers the best prices I found for Peterson 100-15A lenses:

PM 100-15A Amber Lens Round Clearance/Side Marker Replacement Lens – FoxTail...

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #5 – August 08, 2018, 03:23:25 am

Here’s what I got, the lights are called Marker/running lights, I need to check the bulbs, check voltage at bulb sockets, check lenses for degradation, replace with Peterson 100-15A lenses, clean bulb contacts and use dielectric grease before plugging any bulbs back in, upgrade to LEDs, look for another fuse box under hood.

Did I miss anything?

I am sure there is degradation in the lenses because other plastic parts like the vent caps and interior antenna handle/spring/rotator have already exploded and been replaced by yours truly. (re vent cap replacements…. picture me crawling along the roof on hands and knees, with tools and vent caps gorilla taped to my person, while kinda whining, but not loudly).
Any links or part numbers for replacement bulbs?

Are the marker lights considered to be part of the chassis or part of the coach? IE, could I use my Chilton for a guide on these procedures or would they be in the LD manual? (I lent my Chilton to the neighbor, so I don’t have it available right now).
Any tips on removing the lenses?

AND THANK YOU ALL!!! Excellent info!! and here's a pix to give you a smile.

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #6 – August 08, 2018, 05:13:54 am

Hi Alice. No your fuses are all good. The other fuse box that Larry mentioned are bus main fuses (large ones). They are good but you do need to know where that box is also.
   The problem is the design of the marker lights themselves. Petersen just swaged a ring terminal into contact with the socket base connector. That's like you holding two wires together with your fingers for a few years. (Gee, it worked for a few weeks here in the design area.... by the time it goes bad it'll be out of warranty and we can sell more!)
   It takes some soldering experience and a little practice to fix them in situ, did I mention not falling off the roof. This is the LED substitute I used as a short term fix. 194 LED Bulb - 5 SMD LED Tower - Miniature Wedge Base | Super Bright LEDs
Amber for the front, red for the back. A flat blade screwdriver will pop off the lens covers. Petersen no longer makes the fixture or lens covers, but residual stock is still available online. I used   FindItParts.com.
   Part of the Ford chassis, the marker lights front and back, and brake lights, that are on all the time, (not the lights that go on when you step on the brakes) are supplied by LD, so they won't be covered in the Ford manual.
   The Peterson part # 100-15A, the 'A' stands for amber, 'R' is for red.
   I included a picture of one I fixed, sorry about it being fuzzy, a depth of field issue, and hanging from a ladder. The bulb filament evaporates and coats the inside of the bulb, upper left, and the bulb assembly is hanging by one wire. I'm presently working on mass producing a replacement disc with 4 surface mounted LED's, to replace the Insides. My pc board designer is having some health issues, so maybe in a month or so i'll have some test samples, and pictures. RonB

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #7 – August 08, 2018, 08:40:27 am

"Are the marker lights considered to be part of the chassis or part of the coach?"

If Ford made it, it's chassis, if LD provided it's coach.

Like Ron said: Use a flat blade screwdriver to pop those lens off, you should see a slot somewhere around the perimeter of the lens base. Put the flat blade in there and twist. Once the lens is off there's no telling what you'll find inside.

A handy source for miscellaneous parts is:

Trailer Hitches & Vehicle Accessories (800)298-8924

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #8 – August 08, 2018, 01:25:26 pm

Quote from: RonB - August 08, 2018, 05:13:54 am

Hi Alice. No your fuses are all good. The other fuse box that Larry mentioned are bus main fuses (large ones). They are good but you do need to know where that box is also.
   The problem is the design of the marker lights themselves. Petersen just swaged a ring terminal into contact with the socket base connector. That's like you holding two wires together with your fingers for a few years. (Gee, it worked for a few weeks here in the design area.... by the time it goes bad it'll be out of warranty and we can sell more!)
   It takes some soldering experience and a little practice to fix them in situ, did I mention not falling off the roof. This is the LED substitute I used as a short term fix. 194 LED Bulb - 5 SMD LED Tower - Miniature Wedge Base | Super Bright LEDs
Amber for the front, red for the back. A flat blade screwdriver will pop off the lens covers. Petersen no longer makes the fixture or lens covers, but residual stock is still available online. I used   FindItParts.com.
   Part of the Ford chassis, the marker lights front and back, and brake lights, that are on all the time, (not the lights that go on when you step on the brakes) are supplied by LD, so they won't be covered in the Ford manual.
   The Peterson part # 100-15A, the 'A' stands for amber, 'R' is for red.
   I included a picture of one I fixed, sorry about it being fuzzy, a depth of field issue, and hanging from a ladder. The bulb filament evaporates and coats the inside of the bulb, upper left, and the bulb assembly is hanging by one wire. I'm presently working on mass producing a replacement disc with 4 surface mounted LED's, to replace the Insides. My pc board designer is having some health issues, so maybe in a month or so i'll have some test samples, and pictures. RonB

HOly COW!! That is unbelievable!! (pix) Now I know what to expect!! I'm pretty good with electrics and I can solder if I have to but I try to avoid it because I always end up with a new burn scar or two.
It might be another month before I can do the lights because it 90 degrees by 6am around here.

I will definitely post some pix when I do work on them!!

THANK YOU!!

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #9 – August 08, 2018, 01:31:53 pm

Quote from: Lazy Bones - August 08, 2018, 08:40:27 am

"Are the marker lights considered to be part of the chassis or part of the coach?"

A handy source for miscellaneous parts is:

Trailer Hitches & Vehicle Accessories (800)298-8924

Excellent site!!!! My wallet has already started hemorrhaging....

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #10 – August 08, 2018, 11:59:29 pm

Well, I just finished ordering the bulbs, lenses and lubricant. I have to say I would have been lost if not for the links and advice I got here. MANY THANKS!!

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #11 – August 13, 2018, 07:10:56 pm

The lights came so I got up at the crack of dawn the next morning and did a quick bulb replacement on one front marker (working) and the 2 non- working back markers.

After I removed the lenses I found the front marker interior was in good condition. The back marker under the ladder was in horrible condition (Photo 1). The other back marker was in good condition. (photo 2).

I chose the working front marker just to have something to gauge how the LED lights worked.

NONE of the markers worked after LED bulbs were installed. Used grease on all.

I put the original-working (not LED) bulb from front marker into both back markers, neither worked.
I put the (non-LED) bulbs from the back markers into the front marker, both worked.
I then put the original front marker bulb back in the front marker, and it worked.
Put the other non-LED bulbs in the back markers, so there wouldn’t be any empty sockets.

CONCLUSION;
None of the non-LED lights were blown.
Back marker under ladder problem is the connector or socket.
Other back marker problem is unknown.
LED not working in front marker for some reason. I thought maybe because you can’t mix LED and incandescent bulbs.

I decided to test that theory, but I switched to the side markers, because they are easier to work on and it was already getting hot, so I didn’t have much more time.

All original non-LED side marker lights (2 in each marker) were working.

The first thing I tried was to remove 1 non-LED bulb and replace it with an LED bulb. At first it didn’t work but after fiddling with the way it fit into the socket, it lit up and the non-LED stayed lit as well. (photo 3)

I was able to get the LEDs to work in all 4 sockets.
However, I could never get both LEDs to work at the same time in the driver side marker, I could on passenger side marker.

The only way the LEDs would light up is when they were hanging ½ way out of the sockets. This was the case for all four of them. They will NOT work when seated like the non-LED bulbs. The fit is SO tenuous that if you rap lightly next to the marker, the bulbs go out.

At this point it was already 95 degrees so I put all the non-LEDs back in and called it a day.

CONCLUSION;
LED and incandescent can work together.
The LEDs will fall out with normal driving
I don’t know why driver side marker won’t light both LEDs at the same time.

PLAN:
Wait for cooler weather.
Set aside the LEDs until I can figure out what needs to be done to get the system working using the incandescent bulbs.
Once that is done I will try other versions of LED bulbs to see if I can find a style that works in existing sockets. If I can’t, I’ll stay with incandescent bulbs.
On the other hand, if getting the system to work with incandescent bulbs requires replacing a lot of the sockets and/or whole marker units, I will replace all units with new ones specifically for LED bulbs. (If you listen closely you can hear my wallet wailing in agony, in the background).

QUESTIONS;
What are these numbers for? (photo 4)
I can’t find those square sockets anywhere; do they still make them? Would the sockets pictured work as replacements (photo 5), looks like fitting under lens might be a problem.

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #12 – August 13, 2018, 07:47:33 pm

"Set aside the LEDs until I can figure out what needs to be done..."

Some LEDs are polarity sensitive. If it doesn't light, try turning it over and inserting the opposite way.

Make sure that the LED bulb base is identical to the incandescent base, length, width and thickness. You might also try without the grease. See if you can squeeze the contacts closer to provide more contact surface. Good luck.

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #13 – August 13, 2018, 09:04:48 pm

Just a suggestion- it might be a good idea to rename the topic title of this thread to make it more searchable.

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #14 – August 13, 2018, 09:21:08 pm

Hi Alice. You take very good pictures. In Pic#2, you can clearly see that the conductor tab from the socket on the right isn't touching the piece of metal that the blue wire ring terminal is connected to. It should be, and the socket terminal should be over that plastic post. The metal is nickel plated brass. If you use a jewelers file to scrape through the nickel, you can solder to the base brass. You have to be fast and good not to melt too much of the plastic. I've been practicing over 60 years, and I have some specialized equipment. It's even more fun hanging off the roof, or on a ladder.
My printed circuit board designer has shipped design revision two off to make three test boards. If it comes back and works, I'll take a picture of it. Not for the side marker lights, but to replace the guts of the ten round fixtures. See my post to Ray about the side fixtures. You can replace that entire fixture for the same price as the one retrofit bulb. Oval LED Truck and Trailer Lights - 4” LED Side Clearance Lights - Pigtail... edited after the posting 8/15 RonB

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #15 – August 13, 2018, 09:26:06 pm

It looks like in Photo #1 the white base is cracked in two places. Problem?

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #16 – August 13, 2018, 09:29:26 pm

Quote from: Lazy Bones - August 13, 2018, 07:47:33 pm

Some LEDs are polarity sensitive. If it doesn't light, try turning it over and inserting the opposite way.

Make sure that the LED bulb base is identical to the incandescent base, length, width and thickness. You might also try without the grease.

GOOD POINTS.
I did flip the LEDs and it didn't matter, they worked, or didn't work, the same in either direction.
When I put LEDs in side marker sockets, I forgot to add the grease. They didn't work until I added it. The incandescent bulbs worked with or without the grease and in either direction.

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #17 – August 13, 2018, 09:30:28 pm

Hi Alice, I don't know what those numbers mean. I had one fixture on my '99 rig that never had two working bulbs. It's been LED now for 15 years. You'll notice the mounting screws are also meant to be grounded to the side of a trailer or motorhome with aluminum siding. LD had to add ring terminals since the sides were plastic even then. Those newer side markers just have two wires which are polarity sensitive, White = ground and black +12v. The little replacement bulbs should be bi-directional. The contacts inside the sockets can be pried back together inside the slots for better contact with the bulb base. RonB

Re: Here's your chance....

Reply #18 – August 13, 2018, 09:34:34 pm

Hi Cindy, no the cracked base is really common. Would only be a really small water leak, but it's unlikely any water could penetrate the sealant that LD uses. RonB