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Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10

Back in March, the day before leaving for the Morro Bay GTG,  I was driving to the Costco gas pumps when one of the spark plugs blew out. Lovely.
Feeling paniced, knowing I needed to get to Morro Bay, that evening I installed a  Dorman repair spark plug and we left in the morning .
Blown spark plug repair kit | Flickr
I had used one before on a friend's LD and it had enabled her to make the 170 miles drive to Chula Vista, where it was repaired by one of the Blown Spark Plugs brothers.

The temporary repair seemed to work fine on the way up to Morro Bay and on the way home too.  Getting off the freeway,  I noticed the engine had a bad miss, something new that I had not encountered before in a V10.
That night I ordered a Calvan Spark plug repair kit that replaces the damaged threads with a threaded bushing, similar to what Blown Spark Plug guys uses.
Amazon.com: CalVan Tools 38900 Two Valve Ford Triton Tool Kit - Foolproof...

Pulling out the temporary thread repair plug, I found that it had not sealed well and a hot jet of exhaust gases burned a slot up the side of the spark plug's threaded hole, at the same time melting off the spark plug's electrode .
It was the cause of the miss.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/albums/72157691840937002

I installed the thread repair bushing, along with a new spark plug and coil, but the bad miss was still there.
Removing the plug, I examined the cylinder with an endoscope and found it full of engine oil.  Spinning the starter, while looking into the cylinder, a constant seep of oil was seen coming up from the crankcase, indicating that the rings were not sealing and were worn out. Checking the oil, I found it down a half quart, lost in the 200 mile drive home.

Once the spark plug's electrode was melted, it stopped firing and the fuel injector continue injecting raw fuel into the cylinder, washing away the oil that keep the rings from touching the cylinder wall.
After so many miles of this, the cylinder's piston rings were ground down and worn out.
The engine now had 9 functioning cylinders. Cruising on the freeway, the missing cylinder was not noticeable .
It was strange since I had replace the plugs 24,000 miles before and had torqued them to 28-ft/lb, as recommended by the Blown Spark Plug brothers.
Talking with one of the Blown Spark Plug brothers, he thought the threads must have already been damaged when the plugs were changed. I though the problem was limited to 2003 and older V10s but he told me it occurs in newer V10s, even with the 'improved' head, just not as often.

The rig now has a Ford certified, remanufactured engine installed with a three year, unlimited mileage guarantee.
The new engine has steel spark plug thread inserts and should never blow out another plug.
Along with last year's rebuilt transmission and rear axle, I guess we are keeping this rig for many more years.
Might as well, it's in good shape, not bad after 15 years and 108,000 miles. It has been customized to fit our needs, starting again would take a lot of time and money.
Who said RVing is a cheap lifestyle?

Larry


As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #1 –
Really regret this happened to you.

I hear you on "it's in good shape, not bad after 15 years and 108,000 miles. It has been customized to fit our needs, starting again would take a lot of time and money" That's where we are. We wish we had ordered a new one five years ago. But, with every passing year, we know the end of our traveling is getting nearer and cannot justify the time to do the mods over again.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #2 –
very sorry to hear that.
Currently: 2008 36' Tiffin Open Road
Previously: 2007 Mid Bath
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #3 –
Larry,

We're on our way to Live Oak and were just discussing the other day what new problem might have befallen your LD because, at least with the transmission rebuild, we haven't been far behind with some of the same problems.

So much for the notion that the V-10 is bulletproof. On the other hand we have a late 2003 chassis with the "improved" heads with the deeper plug threads. Maybe the LD gods will smile on us.

This is a good example of how one small defect can cause great harm, as one thing leads to another. The positive is that I think you now have a 200,000 mile motorhome for sure.

I look forward to hearing more about this at Live Oak. See you soon.

Terry

Terry
2003 26.5'RB
Gardnerville, NV
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #4 –
I've had quite a few inquiries over the years in all kinds of places from all sorts of people as to whether I want to sell my LD; no, but I hope some of those will be around when I am ready to let it go! 

I thought hard about ordering a new one, but at this stage of life, the length of time to delivery and the additional time and energy that it would take to "tart up" the new rig with all the mods and tweaks were the deal breakers! My rig has 108k, is in very good shape and has been diligently maintained; it has never experienced any major mechanical issues, and I sure hope that this remains true!  :o  The LD is getting a few more tweaks, and new tires very soon, and it will likely be road worthy a lot longer than I am!


2003 TK has a new home
 
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #5 –
Larry, sorry to hear about the engine failure.  It is interesting that we live in an era when losing the rings on one cylinder is best fixed with a replacement engine.  Remember the days when we pulled the heads and the crankcase cover, unbolted the big end bearing and slid the piston up and out, honed the cylinder, put in new rings, thought about getting the valves ground, plasti-gauged the bearing, and put it all back together and then ran the same engine for more miles and years?

RV's and boats are similar. 
They are an expensive luxury that we pay hard-earned money for and then enjoy as often as possible.
It takes me about  three years to get either one set up the way I like it and learn it's idiosyncrasies.
When an engine and transmission are well taken care of, they have a longer, but still limited life span.  Replacement or rebuild is always expensive.
Diesels lack spark plugs, make more torque,  get better fuel economy, run for many more hours, but have their own problems that might negate the advantages if you don't put 10's of thousands of hours on them.  They are often twice as heavy, and the initial cost is staggering.  I run and maintain both.
The idea of replacing one that has served us well for years is difficult as the cost of purchase and adding farkles is difficult to justify vs. fixing what we have and are comfortable with.

Both make life more interesting and add experiences and friends that we wouldn't get otherwise. 
I think the expense and the time is worth it! 
Enjoy your new engine and well cared for Lazy Daze!

Harold
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #6 –
Quote from: Terry Burnes  - 

This is a good example of how one small defect can cause great harm, as one thing leads to another. The positive is that I think you now have a 200,000 mile motorhome for sure.
I look forward to hearing more about this at Live Oak. See you soon.

Terry

If I have not been impatient, we should have  called off our participation in the Morro Bay GTG, and parked the rig until it was fixed.
It's my fault.
Taking with a few Ford mechanics, I was told the V10s regularly go 200,000-300,000 miles, in fleet service .
The three things V10s suffered from is the blown plug issue, failed ignition cols and rusted and broken exhaust manifold studs.
Our old engine had significant rusting of the manifold bolts but nothing had broken...yet.
I have seen high mileage V10s with 5 or 6 broken studs on one manifold. If it goes that far, the manifold is usually warped beyond use and requires replacement, so do take at look at your manifold bolts the next time the dog house is off or from below. if a couple are missing, it cheaper to replace them than to wait and then have to replace the expensive manifold.

See you at Live Oak Thursday morning .
Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #7 –
Quote from: Blueox25  - 
It is interesting that we live in an era when losing the rings on one cylinder is best fixed with a replacement engine.  Remember the days when we pulled the heads and the crankcase cover, unbolted the big end bearing and slid the piston up and out, honed the cylinder, put in new rings, thought about getting the valves ground, plasti-gauged the bearing, and put it all back together and then ran the same engine for more miles and years?

Both make life more interesting and add experiences and friends that we wouldn't get otherwise. 
I think the expense and the time is worth it! 
Enjoy your new engine and well cared for Lazy Daze!

If the LD had been an older pickup truck, where the engine was accessible in frame, I would have pulled the head and oil pan and re-ringed the bad cylinder. The V10 is shoe-horned in, the heads cannot be removed, nor the oil pan without removing the engine.  The oil pan sits on top of the front cross member with very little clearance.

Pulling this monster out to make a repair whose long term dependability is unknown was too much work to justify the potential iffy results.
We want a dependable machine to travel in and, IMO, a Factory remanufactured engine was the best way to get dependability.
In the last two years, just about everything from the radiator to the rear axle has been rebuilt or replaced with new.
Pulling a heavy Jeep for so many miles has worn the driveline quicker than if we didn't tow.
Still, after 15 years of interesting travel to places we would not have seen otherwise, it has been worth it.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #8 –
Several years ago my HS principal traded for a new car at a local dealership.  He got a call from someone looking at the ex on the dealer's lot (in a small town everybody knows everybody else's everything), asking how the ex ran; Charles said he replied, "Ought to be good...everything on it is new."   Of course, he didn't have all the customized bells & whistles which the above discussions have made clear why Larry's course of action is the one most of us would follow.  ;D

Thx, Larry, for sharing this lesson with the rest of us, & glad to know your baby will keep getting you where you want to go.

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #9 –
Bad things happen to good people who are diligent experts, well prepared, and try to do everything right.
Sorry it was your turn.
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #10 –
Larry, so sorry to read about your engine woes.

I respect your candor with accepting responsibility for the chain of events. I am really surprised that your meticulous maintenace procedures and abilities let you down this time.

Did you have the engine replaced at a Ford dealership? Would you care to share cost details?

As a fellow member of the class of 2003, I have followed your experiences and much of your advice for over 15 years now. Funny how it seems all of a sudden, our rigs have gotten old. It would be interesting to have a discussion of "If we knew then what we know now", what we would do differently.

Best wishes for continued enjoyment of your Lazy Daze after its transplant!

Steve K. (with 136,000+ NON towing miles on our 2003 Mid-bath)
Steve K

2003 Mid-bath
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #11 –
Larry, that's a bummer! Personally, I think it was the canoes that caused the wear and tear on the engine. Get rid of them and keep the Cherokee.  ;)

 Who did the engine replacement?
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #12 –
Quote from: Steve K.  - 


I respect your candor with accepting responsibility for the chain of events. I am really surprised that your meticulous maintenace procedures and abilities let you down this time.
Did you have the engine replaced at a Ford dealership? Would you care to share cost details?

As a fellow member of the class of 2003, I have followed your experiences and much of your advice for over 15 years now. Funny how it seems all of a sudden, our rigs have gotten old. It would be interesting to have a discussion of "If we knew then what we know now", what we would do differently.

Ford took several years to redesign the head so it had more threads and was less prone to blowing plugs out.
Unfortunately  our early 2003 engine (built in August 2002) had the older head. Some late 2003s have the improved head,
When changing the plugs at 84,000 miles, I found two that were finger tight and the rest were not much tighter.
After conversing with the Blown Spark Plugs brothers, both felt that the threads were already damaged when the plugs were changed.

I was convinced by friends that replacing the engine was too big a job for me to do myself, Neither my engine hoist or engine stands are big enough for this heavy an engine, I'm set up for changing lighter Jeep engines .\
The engine was changed at El Cajon Ford, a dealership I was familiar with and knew the mechanic who was the lead man on the change out. Other than few smudges, here and there, they did a good job.  I have not found any mistakes yet.
The Ford-certified, remanufactured engine, installed, was $8000.
Ford does to stock them, so there was a three waiting period  one to be manufactured. The replacement took five days.

Even if we had decided to sell the LD, an replacement engine would have been needed to get a reasonable price for it.
Going with a better engine, with a warranty, enables us to more confidently continue to travel long distances.
At this point, the coach is still in decent condition, it's worth putting money into it considering a new one would cost around $100,000.
The last year I have spent $15,000 to rebuilding the drivetrain and for new tires, 95% of it has been rebuilt or replaced.
The brakes, suspension, steering, cooling system and tires are in good shape.

It is amazing how fast the years have gone, now owning a 15 year old LD, when it doesn't seems so long since it was new.
I'm not really surprised about the last years problem, we have seriously used the LD, towing the Jeep and kayaks over hundreds of steep passes, all over the Western US,  it puts a heavy strain on the driveline.  Our 1983 LD's drivetrain, which never towed anything, was totally worn out at 110,000 miles.
I'm pleased how well the coach has held up, not a surprised since our 1983 LD coach was still intact when sold at the 20 year mark. If maintained well, an LD can be run for a very long time.  Just keep it sealed.
Many cars are trashed by the time they get to be 15 years old, the same with many motorhomes.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #13 –
Larry,

With your years of LD knowledge and wisdom, many here have expressed their sorrow for your loss. You have shared an experience that many of us hope to avoid down the road.

This is a testament to a dedicated individual who has for many years gone past a simple word of advice and encouragement. There are many educators who would stand up and applaud your unending guidance to others. Thank you.

I only hope that those new members who have older LDs heed your advice and have the dreaded spark plug issue remedied before their new joy ends up on the side of the road.

So many things go right with the Lazy Daze life while others can go horribly wrong. I prefer the former.

Kent

2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #14 –
At 210k I had a tick from the header.  Placed the wrench on a nut and the stud just fell right off.  Found 4 studs broken 1/8" inside the head on each side.  I went through a bucket of spare nuts trying to extract the studs with a welder.  I could just barely get the mig welders gun into position laying on my back and using my fingers to guess where to weld.  After 2 days I was almost ready to drive somewhere, open header, and just have someone pull the whole thing out and install a remanufactured motor.  Day three I finally got penetration to the last stud to extract it and installed a banks header as the original header was warped.  I replaced all the plugs at 200k and torque checked them 3k and 6k miles afterwards.  Driving to the beach a plug shot out at 220k, so I unplugged the injector and drove 70 miles home after a day on the beach.  The family thought the LD sounded like a Harley.  Found that a cheap tapered plug repair had spun out and would thread back in.  I decided to let  one of the blown out spark guys repair it for a little more than buying the kit as it needed an oversized repair.  At this point I have also replaced all of the coils, one twice as I am using the cheaper ones and not the motor craft coils.  I feel fortunate that a motor swap has not been needed but have the funds ready to go and think I might try to get the better PI head and upper intake installed to go with the banks header.  There is hardly any room to work on the V10 and don't wish it upon anyone and feel fortunate Larry's problems have not hit me as quickly.  Replacing the head on one Jeep in a afternoon, motor in a day on the other but I am not sure which header bolts are harder to tighten from the Jeep's to a E350 V10 van.
1997 TK
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #15 –
Well, Larry, I've had a failed ignition coil on #3, I've had two broken manifold bolts, but hopefully my '08 will not be subject to the blown plug.  Sorry to be doing all this learning via your experience.

Good luck with the new engine.

Ken F in WY
'08 MB
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #16 –
On the rusted bolt front, I saw a video recently demonstrating an inductive bolt heater.  Has a coil (that looks like an immersion coffee heater) that you place around the head of the bolt (assuming it still has one) and engage the heat.  Bolt gets really hot, without directly heating surrounding stuff.  After less than a minute, it backs off easily with non-impact tools.  Pretty slick.
Takes reasonable work access, plus the whole 'bolt still has a head' thing.
2000 Front Lounge
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Kenneth Fears  - 
Well, Larry, I've had a failed ignition coil on #3, I've had two broken manifold bolts, but hopefully my '08 will not be subject to the blown plug.  Sorry to be doing all this learning via your experience.

Good luck with the new engine.

Ken F in WY


How can you tell you have a failed ignition coil, missing? How do you tell if you have broken manifold bolts?

Jim
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #18 –
Jim, I had two event, both with #3.  The first showed up as an error code on my UltraScan.  I felt nothing.  The code read as an ignition fault with #3, either a wire, coil or plug.  I drove to my service people, who replaced the coil.

The second happened in Wyoming.  I was camped for a week.  When I left, I drove two miles, at which time the engine died, and just about every warning light I had came on, then the UltraScan and most of the lights went off.  To make a long story short, I was towed into Jackson, where they found the #3 coil was bad, had arced into neighboring wires, blew the fuse for the engine computer, and burned a few wires.  Exciting...

Anyway, the coil was replaced.  That was 2 years, 10,000 miles ago and so far, all seems to be fine.

Broken manifold bolts - When in for October service, one broken bolt was spotted.  I deferred repair until service in May, at which time, they found two that were broken.  They repaired them.  Cost - a few hundred.

Ken F in WY


Ken F in WY
'08 MB
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #19 –
I'm late to the discussion--somehow I missed Larry's original post. Sorry to hear about what happened, Larry! You take better care of your rig than most (myself included), so it really is a shame to be hit with a bill for a new engine. I hope this one will carry you and Renée for many more thousands of miles!
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #20 –
I use a Bluetooth reader and app on my phone.  I has a little loss of power and looked at the total number of misfires which were greater than 7000 and I can monitor individual misfires on cylinders 1-8.  Don't know the code for 9 and 10.  Pulled over, 7mm and 15 min I was back on the road.  I carry a magnet swivel spark plugs socket and torque wrench to check the plugs any time I'm touching the coils, and a spark plugs hole plug from blown out spark plugs.  You can see some of the manifold studs while you might have to feel around for the rest.  I think they were 13mm as the banks kit doesn't use studs.
(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)
(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

1997 TK
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #21 –
Quote from: Craig P  - 
At 210k I had a tick from the header.  Placed the wrench on a nut and the stud just fell right off.  Found 4 studs broken 1/8" inside the head on each side.  I went through a bucket of spare nuts trying to extract the studs with a welder.  I could just barely get the mig welders gun into position laying on my back and using my fingers to guess where to weld. 
Driving to the beach a plug shot out at 220k, so I unplugged the injector and drove 70 miles home after a day on the beach.
There is hardly any room to work on the V10 and don't wish it upon anyone.
 
Replacing the head on one Jeep in a afternoon, motor in a day on the other but I am not sure which header bolts are harder to tighten from the Jeep's to a E350 V10 van.

Rusted away exhaust manifold bolts are very common in old V10s, along with blown out plugs and bad ignition coils.
Welding nuts to broken studs is the preferred way of removing broken exhaust manifold studs,  the room needed to center drill and to use an easy-out isn't available.
LIKE SHOP 6 PC SCREW EXTRACTOR KIT SET BROKEN BOLT REMOVAL TOOL EASY EZ OUTS...

Tightening the Banks headers bolts on our 2001 Jeep Cherokee is much harder than the V10s.
I find it easier to remove the Jeep's head and install the manifolds, while the head is bolted to a bench, and then reinstalling the head as a complete assembly .
Pre-2000 Jeeps are much easier  .

Larry


As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #22 –
My 2004 is a Wrangler and instead of removing the head with the header the bolts are accessable by removing the fender.  The 99 Cherokee is a piece of cake with a offset ratching wrench.  I'm glad I don't to gain access to a 2000 or 2001 Cherokee head.
1997 TK
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #23 –
I just had a semi-close call with a similar situation. After 25 years of faithful service, the original ECM finally failed in our '93 G30. Two issues triggered my initial inspection: the 4L80E tranny wouldn't shift into 3-4 gear, and the SES light came on but wouldn't throw any codes. (This is OBDI with just the flashing CEL.)

One of the best investments I made was to find/purchase the original GM shop manuals when we originally bought the rig 6 years ago. The two volume set literally has 100s of pages devoted to very specific troubleshooting for countless operational functions. Suffice it to say that after screwing around, pondering and re-testing, I concluded it had to be the ECM.

So, for $200 (less $100 for the core), my new ECM fixed both the tranny & SES problem. BTW, the E in 4L80E stands for electronic - all gear shifts, etc are based on solenoids triggered by sensors hooked to the ECM feeding it info on speed, fuel use (ie acceleration) etc.

However, a new problem popped up as the rig now evolved into a "no start" situation (a first for me). After yet another day screwing around, thinking about it, and finally giving up - I had exceeded by garage mechanic qualifications - I had it towed to a very well regarded local RV shop.

The owner called the next day to inform me the TBI (throttle body injector) had failed. It was no longer metering gas as a spray, but dumping a full fuel bowls worth into the injector ports, thereby flooding the engine causing a no-start situation. And the next question: when was the oil last changed? Because, of course, if too much fuel had cascaded through and wasn't being burned, it would - like in Larry's case - travel past the rings into the oil pan and dilute the oil, eventually causing the entire motor to burn out.

As it turned out, my few no-start attempts didn't put much more than a teaspoon out before I had it towed. They found it quickly on the first crank over test, so it therefore didn't cause a problem by dropping too much gasoline. They of course checked the oil, but determined the integrity hadn't been compromised with maybe a tablespoon worth of gas.

So, moral of the story? Out $100 for the ECM, and out $800 for a TBI re-build. Because, of course, all parts are practically long past any hope of replacement with new. Everything out there is rebuilt. My shop kept my original TBI body, etc but had one of their mechanics do their own bench re-build with a new set of individual component parts.

Upside? With only 71K miles on the vehicle, the tranny is in excellent mechanical condition. If that sucker ever fails, it will cost a lot more than $900. So, tack another expense onto the ledger. At this point, I'm in over $18k into this baby. But the rig runs unreal; it passed smog 8 weeks ago with really excellent low emission scores. With the new ECM & TBI, it runs even better. Which means I'll probably just keep it until it's truly unique & vintage.
Re: Our trip to the Morro Bay GTG or how to kill a V10
Reply #24 –
Snerf,
According to the Antique Automobile Club of America,  We will be driving Antiques with OBDI by the end of the year!
That is over 25 years old.  1991 Coachnman M-19VT and 1988 LD MB.
Rodney
1988 Mid Bath