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Topic: No gas, no diesel, ...electric! (Read 1043 times) previous topic - next topic
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No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
 Why doesn't Ford design an electric powered engine for RVs? The battery recharged with your solar power. Even a hybrid would save on fuel.
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #1 –
Quote from: wrightstuf  - 
Why doesn't Ford design an electric powered engine for RVs? The battery recharged with your solar power. Even a hybrid would save on fuel.

Ford is making a lot of money on the E450, as is and they pre-sell every one made.
There are a lot things Ford "could" do to improve mileage but it has no incentive to do so.
Gas is still cheap and people are lining up to buy inexpensive Class Cs.
Redesigning the chassis would add significantly to the cost.
If you have a few hundred million laying around, to develop a new RV chassis,  you could corner the market, assuming it can be built economically, along with a network of dealers and service centers.

Recharging the RV's drive battery would take hundreds of square feet of solar panels, not to mention very long recharge times.
RVs do not have room for very many solar panels, so self recharge times could be days and weeks.
The drive to make everything electric is interesting but denies the fact that most electric power is generated using fossil fuels.
it will be a long time before renewables have the capacity to power a nation's fleet of all-electrics vehicles.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #2 –
Let's look at existing electric vehicles.

The Tesla model S electric car, which weighs two tons, uses 32,330 watt-hours per 100 miles, according to the EPA. To put that number in context, if it were coming from a 12 V battery, that would be 2,700 amp-hours per hundred miles, or 27 amp-hours per mile. A fully loaded Lazy Daze can weight seven tons, so if we extrapolate, it would require about 94 amp-hours per mile. (Probably more, since a motorhome is much less streamlined than a passenger car.)

At that rate of power consumption, your standard Lazy Daze house batteries would be drained below the safe level in about a mile. More batteries could be added, of course, but each pound of batteries is a pound subtracted from the motorhome's cargo capacity (and is also a pound that has to be moved by the motor). The Tesla model S's battery pack weighs about 1,200 pounds. Scale that up to power a seven-ton motorhome, and you're looking at about two tons of batteries. That's twice the total cargo capacity of any Lazy Daze.

Now let's consider how the power would be replaced. If you sacrifice TV antennas, you can just fit 600 watts of solar panels on the roof of a Lazy Daze. At this time of year (early March), I'm seeing a little less than 1,000 watt-hours per day from 600 watts of panels. (I could get more if I had a larger battery bank, but my 320 Ah of lithium batteries are usually full shortly after noon.) Going back to that 32,330 watt-hour per mile EPA number, I'm generating enough solar power every day to go 1/32 of a mile... in a Tesla car that weighs a fraction of what a class C motorhome weighs. And I'm in sunny Arizona.

These calculations are off the top of my head, so don't take them as gospel. But you get the idea. As Larry said, there's no way in the world that a motorhome can carry enough solar panels to generate power for a trip of even a few miles, let alone a typical journey. And there's no way to store enough power unless you add tons of batteries and subtract tons of cargo capacity.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #3 –
It really is too bad that physics always get in the way of life. Electric motors have so many advantages over IC engines, and yet the one critical drawback defeats its wide-spread adoption. (Except for vanity, short trip applications like the Tesla.)

Larry/Andy, what's the net energy delivered to wheel torque from an IC engine? Think of the crazy Rube Goldberg engineering feats required to transform reciprocal motion into rotational torque, regulate engine HP/TQ/RPM, and then once again transfer that rotation to the axle(s)/wheel(s). What do you think? 10-15%?

Compare all that kinetic motion weight/heat/energy loss to an EM, and the dang thing is like a magic device. No wonder the Tesla's can do 0-60 in 3 seconds. But the sad thing is, unless some incredible unknown physical discovery is made that essentially transcends our 4 dimensional universe, batteries are still nothing more than chemical storage.

So, then we're back to comparing net energy stored/available in fossil fuels - petroleum being the #1 champ - to batteries/solar panels. No contest, right? It seems about the only real possible solution - if it can even be called that - are hybrids. And yet, from an engineering stand-point, it seems insane to have not just one, but two motors. Rube is calling again.

The end result, as usual, is the good old IC engine is the tool of choice. And what better exemplifies this advantage than the E450, where the development costs, tooling, etc are fully amortized, thereby making it essentially a pure profit center. No wonder Ford will be happy to keep making them as long as buyers keep lining up to take them off their hands. LOL

But seriously, the price/performance delivered via a crappy Thor Class C sitting on an E450 chassis is off the charts. Compared to a new Sprinter B from RoadTrek that costs at least twice as much? The RV business isn't hard to understand; the difficulty is if you have expectations.
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #4 –
Ok, sounds like there's no way to implement today's alternative energy in a Lazy Daze!
Still, though. I read articles like this..

https://www.wired.com/2014/09/fedex-wrightspeed-diesel-ev-trucks/

I can't help but think once the mainstream trucking industry converts entirely to alternative energy, RVs won't be far behind!
My prediction is new orders for LDs in the year 2028 will have an option for a "hybrid" chassis.
Base price $146000 and an extra $85000 for the option. Out the door for $256000

 
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #5 –
Well, if you're going to look at the new diesel-electric technologies,  how about the train locomotives that have been doing that for decades.   There was a billboard  AT&SFE  (now BNSF) fuel efficiency 255 ton/miles per gallon.  
How well would it work on an 8% grade?
Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #6 –
All that aside, Tesla is supposedly designing an electric semi which will pull much more weight than a Lazy Daze weighs.  I'm sure it will utilize their charging network which uses solar, not directly installed solar panels but
if anyone can make it happen, I suspect Tesla can.  Time will tell.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #7 –
so many alternatives to consider...

The thermal efficiency of gasoline engines under development by Mazda, Toyota, BMW and others for hybrid systems actually outperforms the total CO2 cost of electric systems (which is far greater than most people imagine). Great potential there.

Battery technology is starting to see breakthroughs to reduce some of the heavy metals and elements whose mining and processing cost severe ecological damage.

The torque of the electric half of the hybrid equation is compelling to such a degree that Porche is featuring it in all its new super and hyper-super cars.

But I really think the E450 will be long gone before we see such developments. Unless you believe in that 100 MPG carburetor?  It is always fun to dream about the future. We really notice the cost savings when driving our camper van on our long journeys. But it is not a LD!
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #8 –
The world wide availability of gasoline and diesel ensure they will be around for a long time.
There are big increases efficiencies still to be made in conventional drivetrains..
The DOT's Super Truck program is resulting in large fuel efficiency increases in upcoming heavy duty trucks.
Freighliner's fuel efficiency increases are an eye opening 12 MPG,  for a 60,000+lbs load, that isn't too bad.
Freightliner SuperTruck
All the auto manufacturers are developing similar technologies, they have a lot of money invested in manufacturing petroleum powered drivetrains.
The same technologies can be applied to an RV chassis, if anyone wants to spend the money developing it.
If it was possible to transplant Ford's pickup turbo-diesel and six-speed transmission into an LD, you would see a huge increase in mileage.
Don't hold your breath.

A small hybrid system could be added without major structural changes but carrying a battery big enough to aid in uphill ascents is weight prohibited.
A hybrid E450 would be best suited for a local delivery van.
As HiLola mentioned, the Tesla semi-truck will probably use Tesla's charging system, limiting the trucks to established routes.
Charging a semi's battery, in a reasonable amount of time, will take a large, high voltage power supply, not something that is widely available.
Eventually, all vehicles will be electric, that day is a long ways off.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #9 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
The Tesla model S electric car, which weighs two tons, uses 32,330 watt-hours per mile, according to the EPA. To put that number in context, if it were coming from a 12 V battery, that would be 27 amp-hours per mile.

Andy, am I missing something? 32,330 / 12 = 2,694

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #10 –
"Andy, am I missing something? 32,330 / 12 = 2,694"

Sorry, I misquoted the EPA. Their number was 32,330 watt-hours per 100 miles, not per mile. Thanks for catching that major error!
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #11 –
"the Tesla semi-truck will probably use Tesla's charging system, limiting the trucks to established routes."

Existing Tesla "Supercharger" stations are not suited for 18-wheelers. Recent reports say that Tesla will partner with shippers to build their own charging setups at their warehouses and distribution points.

Seems to me it would have made more sense for Tesla to start with delivery vans (FedEx, UPS et al), which make local runs and return to their point of departure every night, and work up to semis later. An added  benefit would be that delivery trucks ("package cars," for you ex-UPSers) typically do a lot of stop-and-go driving, which is the situation where an electric or hybrid vehicle's regenerative braking offers big efficiency gains. That's much less true of long-haul over the road trucks. But Elon Musk is nothing is not ambitious. ;-)
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #12 –
Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
"the Tesla semi-truck will probably use Tesla's charging system, limiting the trucks to established routes."

Existing Tesla "Supercharger" stations are not suited for 18-wheelers. Recent reports say that Tesla will partner with shippers to build their own charging setups at their warehouses and distribution points.

That sounds more reasonable, Andy.

Quote from: Andy Baird  - 
Seems to me it would have made more sense for Tesla to start with delivery vans (FedEx, UPS et al), which make local runs and return to their point of departure every night, and work up to semis later. An added  benefit would be that delivery trucks ("package cars," for you ex-UPSers) typically do a lot of stop-and-go driving, which is the situation where an electric or hybrid vehicle's regenerative braking offers big efficiency gains. That's much less true of long-haul over the road trucks. But Elon Musk is nothing is not ambitious. ;-)

Agreed, but I'm starting to question Elon less and less. I think he thinks a little different than most of us.

On a somewhat related note, California DMV has approved testing of driverless cars without a nanny.  Be careful out there:

California DMV Approves Self-Driving Vehicle Testing Without Drivers/Engineer...
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #13 –
A good example of what I meant about local deliveries: the long history of electric "milk float" trucks in Britain. Even with low-tech lead-acid batteries and relatively weak motors, they've served admirably for a century, making local deliveries by day and then recharging overnight.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #14 –
If you eliminate power source (electricity vs fuel) variables, the primary advantage electrical motors have over internal combustion engines is rotary vs reciprocal motion. The respective WWII belligerents well knew the limitations of reciprocating engines 80 years ago, which is what 'propelled' the development of jet engines.

Turbines, Wankel engines and other novelty gas-fuel rotary applications have been attempted in the past for vehicles, but for a variety of reasons were never really very successful. While the standard IC engine continues to become more efficient and economical due to both fine manufacturing tolerances and on-board micro-processor management (eg variable valve timing, precise micro-timed fuel metering under different loads, speeds and conditions), a hard physical limit is eventually reached due to the very nature of the inefficient movement of the engine itself.

Electric motors, OTOH, are simply constrained by battery capacity. It may surprise some people that there isn't any magic involved, nor any promise of an "imminent technical breakthrough" with respect to batteries. Sadly, they still operate on the basic premise Volta discovered 220 years ago by joining metals with moisture. But it doesn't stop promoters, and certain governments from providing subsidies, from telling/believing in a good story.

IMO, the future will be represented by two forks:

1. There will renewed attempts at developing fuel efficient rotary gasoline/diesel engines via the use of extremely precise, real-time variable processing; and

2. Modular electrical motors used in conjunction with primary IC engines to deliver peak torque to individual wheels and/or axles when required. They may be supplemented with battery packs, which can be re-charged via braking through the kinds of energy recovery systems widely implement through F1.

As in all things in life, simply "follow the money". The trucking industry is where the primary action lies. Personal automobiles simply have too much fashion, and not enough function, to really produce a transformational design. When there's actual money on the line, no one is going to commit capital until the entire service, maintenance and operating cycle cost/time/motion studies are thoroughly tested and proven.
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #15 –
Come on People! Let's think outside the box a little bit!

Clearly all we need to do is combine the Flux Capacitor with a Mr. Fusion and problem solved! Roads? Who needs roads?!

Google Image Result for [url=https://greenprophet.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/m]RECIPE: Silky White Malabi, Middle Eastern Milk Pudding | Green Prophet...[/url]

Happy Trails!

Pete
Pete
1994 RB
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #16 –
I think the Tesla semi would make a good basis for an RV.  No worries about weight or range.  Charging would need to take place at a commercial outlet (pun intended) or... wait for it... a nice campground with 30/50 amp service.  May take longer than a dedicated charging station, but you'll be there overnight, so that'll work.  Boondocking?  That will require a combination of decent solar array and a generator, like a 7000W Honda.  Plus carrying gas.  So it's not all candy and flowers. All it takes is some money, a good coach builder, and some more money.  Bring some extra money along, just in case. 
2000 Front Lounge
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #17 –
This thread has provided some nice discussion on future potential developments. IMO, it supports my contention that the vehicle/coach technology gap is widening at an ever increasing rate.

If we could transport ourselves ahead 20 years and look back, I think we could see the divergence causing a hard break at a certain point. The idea of committing to building a fixed abode on an underlying chassis will be recognized as a (temporary) stage that rationalized class A, B & C RVs.

Who would have thought 10 years ago that a twin-turbo V6 would become the premier tow vehicle? What about a highly fuel-efficient turbo V4 with a rear-mounted electric motor supplying on-demand peak torque in another 10 years? At what point does it become both uneconomical and technically unsatisfying to drag around a fixed turtle shell? Why not keep the "house", but swap the vehicle?

Trust me, I love our LD. I love the convenience of driving up and being already set up. But, at the same time, I'm well aware of potential alternatives. I drove the F150 a few months ago while shopping/considering a new vehicle. (We ended up getting the new JL Wrangler Rubicon, so no Airstream for now.)

Still, it's easy to see the where the technology curve is going. If/when the trucking industry begins to widely adopt certain engine type/hybrid configurations, that may be the point where the advantages of towing cause a broad re-think of the traditional motorhome market.
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #18 –
Indeed, electric and other technologies are creating an ever widening gap with our Triton V10 power plant. 

Could it be that a bridging technology will be hydrogen injection?  Sure, this continues to have lots of technical hurdles, not too mention delivering it with a positive ROI, but Boeing and FedEx are signed up to try out the latest.  Here's a link to an interesting Vox article that suggests it may happen.  Also , a link to the company's website.

HyTech Power may have solved hydrogen, one of the hardest problems in clean...

Hydrogen Fuel Technology | Next-Gen Energy Efficient Technology

Jim
Jim & Sue
Formerly owned: 2011 27' MB, Sidra
 
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #19 –
Quote from: Peter Weisel  - 
Come on People! Let's think outside the box a little bit!

Clearly all we need to do is combine the Flux Capacitor with a Mr. Fusion and problem solved! Roads? Who needs roads?!

Google Image Result for [url=https://greenprophet.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/m]RECIPE: Silky White Malabi, Middle Eastern Milk Pudding | Green Prophet...[/url]

Happy Trails!

Pete


If we are going to think outside the box, let's go way outside. How about "Immersive Rooms?" No RV required!

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zoIKvBpL5rM
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #20 –
As many here have noted, the infrastructure is a key component. Looking at all the conversations elsewhere on this forum about finding LP, and adding hundreds of watts of solar to keep our modest battery banks charged, one wonders how long it will all take. The nearest solution would seem to include campground electricity, and a revenue opportunity for them.

One hurdle I haven't seen solutions for is the one of added weight on already taxed chassis.

There are folks going all electric in B vans, including heat, cooking, and air conditioning, using Lithium systems. These are interesting, but usually panned by the mainstream, including this audience.

Perhaps the RV market is satisfied as following along, adopting new tech as it is proven? Or is the cost of RVs already hitting resistance and not able to support the new technology? I would buy an electric car or light duty truck before a hybrid RV, unless something changes dramatically. Or there is a BIG subsidy so I can use others' money for my fun. 
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #22 –
The first two Tesla semi's are making their first delivery, from Tesla's gigafactory in Nevada to their car plant in Fremont:

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/teslas-elon-musk-posts-photo-of-semi-trucks-before-first-delivery

A little more about the semi:

Revealed: Tesla’s new electric semi truck| Latest News Videos | Fox Business
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #23 –
One of my daily reading subjects is “Electric Cars”, and this gem popped up today, projecting an increasing utilization of battery power in the grid, and cars over the next several years. Without considering technology not yet considered mainstream, ie: lithium.   The Battery Will Kill Fossil Fuels—It's Only a Matter of Time - Bloomberg

And the news of a completely autonomous truck tested on Florida highways is related. Part of me likes this idea, except for the drivers and dependents who will be “free” to buy RVs and travel! Starsky Robotics wants to fix long haul trucking, save truckers jobs - Roadshow

Change is coming, and the loss it represents is disquieting. 
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: No gas, no diesel, ...electric!
Reply #24 –
"The Battery Will Kill Fossil Fuels"?! Typical techno-nonsense from Bloomberg. Their writer is apparently unaware that a battery is not an energy source. As others here have pointed out, most of the energy used to charge batteries is currently generated by fossil fuels. Arrrghhhh...
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"