Change in MPG when towing February 25, 2018, 10:50:29 am Hi All, We are like most "young" rvr's we are trying to sort out if it is more economical to tow a vehicle with us or to rent a car as needed near rv unfriendly cities. I know every size rig gets different mileage, so what I am asking for is an idea on how much your mileage changes when you are towing as compared to when you are not. If a few of you could give me your stats it would help us decided if a toad is worth it over a long trip. tlbh2o
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #1 – February 25, 2018, 11:19:09 am To toad or not to toad??? A dilemma many Class C owners have asked themselves. We don’t tow with our 27’. That’s just us. We have rented a car once for our trip to Yellowstone and found the convenience of the car amazing. Renting cost what we saved in fuel for the LD had we driven it around the park. So we broke even on that adventure. For most of our adventures, we explore the areas we visit by bike or public transportation (Yosemite and Watchman have free public transportation). Here is a video from the Wynn’s before they migrated to their ocean adventures. https://youtu.be/BuE6UYm_FVoIf and when you decide to tow, you may want to reflect on Jason Wynn’s lesson he learned here. https://youtu.be/bqjiT_rksUUWhile they are Class A travelers here, they may be able to shed a little light on your question.Hope this helps.Kent
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #2 – February 25, 2018, 11:38:18 am "I know every size rig gets different mileage, so what I am asking for is an idea on how much your mileage changes when you are towing as compared to when you are not."Caveat: We have been RV'ing since 1985, and we don't tow.That said, here's why. The difference in the cost to tow as regards gas mileage is the very least of the considerations. If that cost was the only consideration, we would tow.The overall fiscal considerations will depend on what equipment you already own, i.e. a towable vehicle, and your willingness to acquire (read: pay for) the proper equipment on both the motorhome and the towed vehicle.The physical considerations will depend on how much effort you are willing to put into jockeying the towed vehicle around during hook up, your travel time, in campgrounds, rest stops, etc..So what DO we do for an auxiliary vehicle? I drive a Sportsmobile campervan separately. We don't travel long distances, so even though the cost of the fuel to take that vehicle with us at ~15 MPG, is a consideration, it isn't enough to have changed our habits. I've worked out the costs six ways to Sunday, but have yet to come up with a useful financial reason to change out this system. It's probably not for everyone, but we enjoy the benefits of having a fully functional mini-camper with us wherever we go so much, that the siren of a regulation "toad" has never been sufficient to pry the Sportsmobile out of our driveway. The dollar part just never worked out, either.I do NOT enjoy driving, and would much prefer to be a passenger, so - even with that caveat in place - we still find that this seems to be the best solution FOR US ONLY! We don't spend long hours on the road, usually don't travel consecutive days, and stop often. We carry two (sometimes three) sets of walkie talkies to converse with each other while we are in transit. And, of course, there are cell phones. I do admit that back in Ye Olden Days, communication between us was more difficult, but the hand-held appliances these days keep us in constant touch with each other.Even at a camping location, having the extra mini-camper provides a place to store oversized or overweight items, an extra two cubic feet of refrigerator space to store produce, a "den" for one or the other of us to take a nap without inconveniencing the other, as well as our own clean "facilities", and a quiet place to rest when on a day trip. If you have children, or you or a partner has any limitations, this commodious vehicle is primo. Everything is in place for a spontaneous overnight stay, as well, if we find that we are in a place where the light makes photographing so entrancing that we can't leave in time to get back to the Lazy Daze before dark.We embarked on this combination when we were fulltiming in a 40-foot behemoth, and it just seemed to transition to the smaller size of the Lazy Daze for all the same reasons. We had been Volkswagen campers for many years, and that mode dies slowly.From time to time, we consider NOT taking the Sportsmobile on a trip, but then I think all of the above to myself, and haul myself up into the driver's seat after all. I'm always glad I did! But all that said, this is US, and each camper must decide how much trouble he wishes to endure to have a separate set of wheels. We think of our Lazy Daze as our moveable house, and our Sportsmobile as our multi-use vehicle - just as if we were living normally at home.This is definitely a Your Mileage May Vary topic! ;-> Virtual hugs,Judie 2 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #3 – February 25, 2018, 11:41:20 am Towing a car/truck also gives you more storage space. I like my Jeep Liberty and take it places offroad that you should never take a rental. Plus I have had a couple instances where rentals were not available.I would say my mileage drops anywhere from 1/2 to 1 mpg with the Jeep. That being said it all really depends on how and where you will be going. Going with friends somewhere? Get your buddy to tow.
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #4 – February 25, 2018, 01:02:41 pm tlbh20,We tow an enclosed trailer with a motorcycle and several bicycles in it regularly with our 27MB. The loaded trailer is about 2500lb. We have averaged 7.9mpg for about 10,000 miles. We recently returned from a 1000+ mile trip with the LD and didn't tow the trailer. Our mileage was 9.2mpg for the trip. My wife drove the Jeep behind the LD and our combined mileage was about 6mpg. Towing beats driving both vehicles, yet we see lots of RVers doing so.Towing the trailer cost us about 1mpg, which I think is insignificant considering the many benefits of the trailer including additional storage space, security at night and protection from the elements for our stuff, hauling bicycles, motorcycle, etc. I really like towing a trailer. It doesn't noticeably affect the performance of the Lazy Daze in the hills, it backs up predictably and easily (the rearview camera is useless, but mirrors always work), and only extends our length by 14 feet. When campsites are too short, I jack knife the trailer in the site to reduce the overall length and avoid end curb stops, logs, big rocks, etc that campgrounds install to limit the length of the space. I usually ask first and have NEVER had a complaint from a host for doing so. In addition, I mounted a propane bottle on the tongue and when used with a 20 foot hose, allows us use of our propane fireplace while in camp.YMMV,HD 2 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #5 – February 25, 2018, 01:08:08 pm First, you need to have a car that is flat towable. Most cars cannot be flat towed.Here's a list of towable cars from 2004 to 2017.Towing Guide | Serving the Seattle Everett Washington areaOnce you own a towable car, you will next need to spend two to three thousand dollars for the equipment and installation.It can be done cheaper if you have good mechanical and electrical skills. Finding used equipment or a car that is already set up can also lower the cost.Building a toad is a commitment, you should use car that will last many years, to offset the cost of setting it up.Mileage change will depend on many factors, the primarly one being the weight of the toad and its rolling resistance.Do you do drive a lot in the mountains, long steep grade can destroy your mileage, you don't get it all back on the downhills.Towing our big-tire 4000-lb Jeep Cherokee reduces the mileage by 1-2 MPG.A Honda Fit will be much less.We are back country explorers and like to go where Fits cannot.Definitely take into consideration the type of roads you expect to use the toad on.Pavement only? a small car works great. If the sight of a unknown dirt road interest you, get something with high ground clearance and bigger tires. Honda CRVs and Subarus are popular. Rougher trails will require a Jeep or similar.Our 1983 LD's 350 V8 was too underpowered to pull itself, much less a toad so we went without for eight years.Buying the 2003 LD new, with the V10, changed that and we have been much happier since.The bottom line to us is it's worth every penny. YMMVLarry 2 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #6 – February 25, 2018, 01:35:05 pm The difference between tow/no tow gas costs is miniscule compared to other tow-related cost (See Larry W's post #5).Whether it works for you depends on your lifestyle, how you travel and what you do. We decided early on to tow and have not regretted that decision. Over two cross-country trips totaling 20K mi, we added an additional 10K on the towd. A back-of-the envelope estimate is that towing cost an additional $300 to the trip. We swapped a 2011 RAV4 for a 2011 CRV due to flat towing issues. Tow conversion cost us $3200. The CRV all wheel drive was a requirement for us. I recently purchased a 1968 Tacoma 4x4 and intend to convert it for towing.The towd provides additional storage space and the ability to off-load weight from the LD (31 IB always close to the GVWR).One other gas mileage issue: If you gas up with California's 'improved reformulation', expect to lose about another 1mpg.As others have said frequently, YMMVsafe travelsjoel
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #7 – February 25, 2018, 02:04:29 pm When we got into this in 2003 we hoped to avoid towing. We bought two Brompton folding bicycles that fit inside the storage compartment aft of the driver's seat in our Rear Bath. And we considered taking a motorcycle, either a large one on a trailer or a small one on the rear bumper. But I do a lot of motorcycling in my other life and long ago decided, while a wonderful way to tour, it's not my preference for errands and the like.Our first camping trip in the LD was from our old home in the SF Bay Area to Hope Valley just south of Lake Tahoe near where we now live in Nevada. We were camped about five miles from Hope Valley Cafe and decided to ride there and back on our bikes to see how that worked. It worked but not very well, certainly nothing to rely on for groceries or the like. We've used the bikes a lot but more for optional fun than anything practical.Shortly thereafter the annual Motorhome magazine towing issue came out. It featured a setup to tow a Jeep Wrangler, that looked pretty cool to me. Not much later we were headed to Yosemite in the LD and stopped at a grocery store in Oakdale. Across the highway was a Jeep dealer featuring a "weekend special" on a white and gray Wrangler that was a nice match for our LD. We bought it, essentially on impulse. I set the Jeep up for towing myself, it being an easy vehicle to work on, with not much concealed space.I'm so glad we did that and we have never looked back. Occasionally when contemplating a trip we talk about not taking the Jeep, thinking because of the nature of that trip we could get along without it. But we always end up towing.Towing has its drawbacks. But I think they are far outweighed by its advantages. More equipment to maintain or possibly malfunction. Hooking up and unhooking take about five minutes each. You develop a drill that makes it efficient. But it remains a psychological barrier. If we're camping en route I always hope to find a pull through site but often spend more time on that than it would take to unhook for the night and hook up in the morning.When navigating and maneuvering in the LD you must assume that you can't back up, though I have backed up in spots quite a ways as long as everything remains perfectly straight. But the no back up problem limits that spontaneous turn down some road that might not have an exit or feasible turnaround.It does reduce motorhome mileage. I don't remember what mileage we got before we started towing, probably 10 or so. It's consistently 8.5 with the Jeep on the back. There are other expenses, insurance, maintenance, repairs. But the Jeep is a valued second car at home, so we'd have those costs anyway.So here is where I end up. It's perfectly possible to live a car free life these days. In a city. Our son has lots of friends who do that in SF, a city well-supplied with alternatives. But I don't think most people would move to the places most of us go in our motorhomes and say "I'm not going to have a car."Yes, you can get by with just your motorhome, especially a smaller one or if your style is to move regularly, so that you can easily do errands along the way. But I think that is limiting. You must "pack up" to go anywhere and do you really want to drive to Glacier Point in your motorhome? You can, but do you want to? And some people just don't want to contend with the added complexity. I respect that. Finally, for me anyway, is the added safety of having the Jeep. If we have a breakdown or other problem in a remote area we have an escape pod.Your question was really about economics. But as you progress with RVing I think you will learn that it's not about saving money. It's about enjoying your travels. Spending underway sort of seeks its own level. Spend in one area, cut back in another. Our Jeep would be well down on my list of things I could do without.One final thought as to type of toad. If I was back east I'd probably get a light weight economy car. But out west I'd want something that I could take on rough roads, a vehicle that would get me places off the beaten path because that is where so much of the west is. But be careful of the tougher 4WD vehicles. Many weigh more that the stock LD hitch will allow, especially after you factor in accessories and that junk that many like to carry in their toad. You can upgrade the hitch but shouldn't overload it. 5 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #8 – February 25, 2018, 03:10:29 pm We used our current LD ('04 FL, 23.5') for 2 years without a toad, then have been towing a 2500lb '13 Honda Fit for a couple of years now, on most trips. I would say our mileage drop is in the region of 0.5 to 1 mpg when we tow. The expense of setting up to tow was minimized by my doing all the work myself, but as others said, it still greatly outweighs any added expense in fuel costs as a budget consideration. One thing to consider is that you have a lot more flexibility in base camp. For instance, if you want to visit an area 2500 mi. from home, you will pay more for gas for the trip out and back. However, leaving the rig parked while you do hundreds of miles of local tourism at your destination over a week in your toad will save a ton of fuel expense.Steve 2 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #9 – February 25, 2018, 06:54:23 pm I noticed about 2MPG cost for towing at the 65 to 70 MPH crossing the states in the midwest along I-40, which is not as flat as folks would have you believe. I normally like to drive 55-60 but as you go west the roads drop to two lanes and the speed limit goes up to 80 in places. Going 55 in traffic is a bit to slow for me in those conditions. When alone on the road I would reduce speed but I was not alone that often.It should be noted that I went almost six years without a car in tow. I mostly did with out a rental but did rent sometimes. Like Larry mentioned the cost to tow is significant. I've been on enough trips that having a car (2016 Forester) to tour the by ways and rugged side roads is a feature for my experience, but it is not a necessity. To this day I only take the car if I plan to use it and even then I think about it for a while.John 07 Mid Bath
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #10 – February 25, 2018, 07:30:46 pm Never wanted to tow, whether toad or trailer. Vespa to the rescue. Now that we are a (ahem) little older, and after ten years of getting it up and down the rack, the magic is fading. But it has been fun! — Jon 1 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #11 – February 25, 2018, 08:49:25 pm " We carry two (sometimes three) sets of walkie talkies to converse with each other while we are in transit. And, of course, there are cell phones. I do admit that back in Ye Olden Days, communication between us was more difficult, but the hand-held appliances these days keep us in constant touch with each other"Judie, You better be careful if you travel back up here to the Pacific Northwest (Washington State, the only REAL Pacific Northwest, sorry Oregon and Idaho). Our "progressive" legislature has passed a DUIE law. (Driving Under the Influence of Electronics) It outlaws use of any handheld electronic devices, even at stop lights, railroad crossings, etc. It's a Primary Offense, meaning they can pull you over for it, with the first offense = $126 and the second = $235. Isn't progress wonderful?Rich - Birch Bay, WA - Former 2000 MB- Now Bullet Crossfire 1800RB trailer
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #12 – February 25, 2018, 09:28:18 pm So, truckers use headsets for their CB radios in that area? 1 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #13 – February 25, 2018, 09:36:06 pm Chip, I think Rich said handheld devices. Most trucker CB radios are installed and use a handheld mic only. So my thought is this new law wouldn't apply to truckers, or to any installed CB or Ham radios. Perhaps Rich can clarify?
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #14 – February 25, 2018, 09:51:49 pm Yes, they made a few (and very few) exceptions, namely CB and Ham Radio Mikes, and of course any devices Law enforcement needs. However, the law allows "the minimal use of a finger" to activate, deactivate, or initiate a function of a personal electronic device while driving so you can still touch your GPS as long as you keep it to a "minimum".Rich
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #15 – February 25, 2018, 10:25:28 pm I suppose it's only to keep you from getting distracted from all the beautiful scenery (I could be wrong)
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #16 – February 25, 2018, 10:29:49 pm In my experience with many traffic situations, ‘use of a finger’ is seldom minimal. 😉 4 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #17 – February 25, 2018, 11:17:47 pm Quote from: HiLola - February 25, 2018, 09:36:06 pmChip, I think Rich said handheld devices. Most trucker CB radios are installed and use a handheld mic only. So my thought is this new law wouldn't apply to truckers, or to any installed CB or Ham radios. Perhaps Rich can clarify?(Not directed at Lola or Rich, but rather at the law itself...)So, holding a small device in your hand, pushing a button and talking into it is against the law if it does not have an attached cord (draped across the steering wheel, gearshift, and other controls), but it's not against the law if it does have a cord. Both hand-held devices. Only difference is one is a complete, integrated communications device, and the other is only one element of a communications device. But both have buttons you push, and places you speak into. In that circumstance, I'd give that particular implementation of the law about a week.
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #18 – February 25, 2018, 11:56:20 pm I guess they didn't want to upset the Teamsters (for the truckers) or the ARRL (for the Hams). Who knows what goes through their minds when they write these laws but I'll bet you can follow the money.Rich
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #19 – February 26, 2018, 04:03:51 am I'm sure the intent was to regulate cell phone use, but a 'FRS' radio has just one button to operate the transmit function, and is of minimal use for anything else that might distract a driver. Certainly a radio or climate system could be more of a danger.
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #20 – February 26, 2018, 10:33:41 am Re: to tow or not.... for me, the decision not to tow was never about a possible detrimental, however minor, effect on mileage, or even about the expense of buying, setting up, and maintaining a tow-suitable vehicle and all the equipment. The main reasons that I don't tow are that, for me, the advantages of a toad are outweighed by the limitations imposed by dragging around a vehicle, i.e., can't back up, 'clearance' and 'fit' issues, hitching/unhitching/parking toad and rig, and my specific limitations with depth perception. My rig is short, so it's more maneuverable and versatile (as far as access to smaller spaces) than a longer rig might be. Also, I travel solo, so all the hitching and unhitching and toad moving and whatnot is on me. That said, I don't deny at all that having a separate vehicle to shoot around in can be a major convenience; one has much more freedom to 'goseedo' with a toad than having to rely on the rig for transportation. Leave the rig set up, get in the 'car' and go to any number of places where the rig could not. Depending on the type of travel and location, renting a car to explore an area can work well; Enterprise rental locations are widespread, and they pick up and deliver. (One can also investigate Uber or Lyft or other local 'get a ride' options, and, depending on the location and one's 'mobility' needs, if any, public transportation may be available.)There is a lot of variety among RV travel styles; what works for one does not for another. As others have suggested - and I sure agree! - people new to the lifestyle should take the time to explore travel options and discover their own style, needs, and preferences through real life experience before making a premature decisions about what they really 'need' or want. Mileage is not to be dismissed on the 'importance scale', but if one is primarily concerned about this one expense element of RVing, I suggest that the RV lifestyle may turn out to be a disappointment. As ever, YM (and its cost!) MV. Joan 3 Likes
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #21 – February 26, 2018, 12:45:03 pm Quote from: folivier - February 25, 2018, 11:41:20 amTowing a car/truck also gives you more storage space. I like my Jeep Liberty and take it places offroad that you should never take a rental. Plus I have had a couple instances where rentals were not available.I would say my mileage drops anywhere from 1/2 to 1 mpg with the Jeep. That being said it all really depends on how and where you will be going. Going with friends somewhere? Get your buddy to tow.We tow occassionally, and have had the same experience in mileage drop.Tom
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #22 – February 26, 2018, 03:37:37 pm [quote ]We tow occassionally, and have had the same experience in mileage drop.[/quote]Pulling a toad has to decrease the MPG.Adding a 4000-lb toad, to a 14,000-lb RV increase the overall weight by almost 30%.An increase in weight has to increase the power and fuel needed to pull it in a nearly equal amounts. It's basic physics. A lightweight car is going to have less of an influence on mileage than a heavy one.One action that offsets some of the mileage loss, when towing, is most owners drive slower when towing, I know I do.Slower speeds produces less air resistance, a big factor when looking at the front profile of an LD, it's has the aerodynamics of a barn door. In addition to the weight increase, a toad's tires add rolling resistance to the equation .Make sure the toad's tires are aired up.When towing our Jeep long distances, the tires are aired up much higher than what I set them at for touring, even lower for off-roading. Before making a long drive to the next destination, the tires are aired up again.Having a good source of compressed air makes this practical.Larry
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #23 – February 26, 2018, 03:59:35 pm I don't tow (bikes / Uber / Enterprise / or just drive the RV). If I did, I would miss the ability to back up and turn around more than I would miss the extra fuel. I would also miss the ability to park in most places. I did, once upon a time, tow a car behind a class A. An unexpected roadblock (both lanes) caused me to have to unhook, turn around, and re-hook. Once is enough in my book.In my experience, it all depends on how you travel. We move a lot and don't put out much in terms of an elaborate camp setup. Others, quite reasonably, make a different choice. Rich'03 MB in NC
Re: Change in MPG when towing Reply #24 – February 26, 2018, 06:58:13 pm Thank you everyone for your input. We really appreciate all your thoughtful responses. I know that mileage is only a part of the equation. But wanted to start somewhere with why to tow or not. So far we really only had trouble when we had just a day in Quebec City and discovered it is definitely not RV friendly. Hoped to find some parking near tourist area but it was all under construction. Otherwise we have been able to find parking for our Sand Castle within walking or biking from our destinations. tlbh2o
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