Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

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Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

February 20, 2018, 03:12:02 pm

Hello Tech Gurus,

Our old Revolution water pump worked fine without a city water hookup. One night when hooked up to city water (with the water pump off), the toilet filled up to the brim. A call to Vince at LD about the location of the check valve, revealed that the check valve is on the water pump. The water pump was replaced with the same model of pump.

A few weeks later we took another trip and hooked up to city water. After several hours water was dribbling out of the gravity feed overflow.

Note: I did catch the employee at the RV storage place filling the water tank using the city water connection.

Are there any other check valves in the water system? What about the golf tee/O-ring thing on the side of the rig as written up in the Companion? Could that be the culprit?

We are aware of the LD group preferences to "work off the water pump".

Your suggestions will be most helpful! Hope to see many of you in Morro Bay.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #1 – February 20, 2018, 04:54:59 pm

You may have more than one issue. The toilet filling up has nothing to do with the pump or check valve. The toilet fill valve is on the toilet flush pedal mechanism. It is "downstream" of both the pump and the city water connection, so a problem with the pump would not cause the toilet to leak. Excess city water pressure MIGHT cause the toilet valve to leak, and excess city water pressure MIGHT allow water to blow out the pump's check valve, feeding into the fresh water tank, thence to the fresh water fill area. I note that city water connections often have a higher pressure than our systems are designed and intended to handle. The solution to that is either a pressure regulator for a city water connection, or using only the pump.

If excess city water pressure damaged the pump, replace it. You MIGHT be able to replace the check valve, but there is no guarantee that that is the only damaged component.

Other possibilities include a toilet valve that did not close because the toilet flush pedal did not snap all the way up. That would allow the toilet to fill, regardless of the water source. A problem with your pump might allow the city water to feed backward to your fresh water tank, even if the city water pressure is ok. In any event, you should NOT be able to fill the fresh water tank from the city water connection. If you can, something is wrong at the pump.

Those are the possibilities that I see offhand. So, what to do? First, fill the fresh water tank, turn the pump on, and check your system. Do the faucets work properly? Flush the toilet and allow the pedal to snap up. Does it continue to fill? If so, you have a problem with the toilet flush valve, completely independent of the source of your water. If water running into the toilet stops appropriately and no faucets are leaking, the pump should soon shut off and stay off. If it has a bad check valve, the pump will cycle on and off even with no water running. If that happens, replace the pump.

If all that checks out ok, turn the pump off, get a water pressure regulator, and connect to city water. Repeat the tests. Again, there should be no water running from the city water connection to the fresh water tank.

My bet is that you have a bad pump, which might have been damaged by excess city water pressure. In the future, do not connect to city water without a pressure regulator connected.

Ken F in NM

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #2 – February 20, 2018, 08:13:18 pm

Quote from: Cindy Beck - February 20, 2018, 03:12:02 pm

Note: I did catch the employee at the RV storage place filling the water tank using the city water connection.

We are aware of the LD group preferences to "work off the water pump".

Cindy

There are very good reasons why we recommend not using the city water connection, in the long term, it always seems to cause problems.
You are a long term LD owner.
A high campground water pressure surge, can badly damage an RV's water system. The little cheapie pressure regulators can handle only so high a pressure surge before they open and let the excessive pressure into the LD's water system.
Valterra Water Regulator for RVs - Brass - Lead-Free Valterra RV Fresh Water...
The older an LD, the greater a chance of damage to the system, most of the system is made of aging plastic.

I agree with Ken's assessment, the toilet's water valve is damaged and probably the water pump's check valves are too.
Both are issues that can be caused by a pressure surge.

I understand the appeal of using the city water connection. Doing so provides more powerful showers and not having to deal with filling the water tank is a convenience, but there can be price to pay.
Using the onboard water pump is not very likely to cause problems, the LD's water system was designed for the pump's lower than city water pressure.
Many problems can be avoided by permanently installing one of these, in the city water connection.
Amazon.com: Camco 22103 3/4" Male Hose Plug with Lanyard: Automotive

See you in Morro Bay.
Larry

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #3 – February 20, 2018, 08:16:42 pm

Thank you Ken, for taking the time to respond to my water system concerns.

For clarification-we did replace the water pump after the toilet and water tank filled while hooked up to city water the first time. Note that we always use a pressure regulator if hooked up to city water.

After the water pump was replaced, the water tank filled to overflowing while hooked up to city water a second time over a several hour period. Again, a pressure regulator was used. No toilet issues. We have had no issues with the water pump, faucet flow or toilet while dry camping, either before the first water pump was replaced, or after the second water pump was replaced.

My note stated that I caught staff at the RV storage FILLING my LD water tank by connecting a hose from their city water source to my city water inlet. It may have happened before. I just happened to catch him.

Is it possible that my new water pump has a bad check valve? The storage place has not filled the water tank since the water pump was replaced.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #4 – February 20, 2018, 09:05:42 pm

Hi Cindy; Just to clarify a little. You can't fill the water tank from the pressure city water hose input. That water line goes into your motorhome water supply line to your faucets etc. after the pump. The pumps back flow preventer (check valve) will keep from filling up your tank. The person at your RV place should know that. Some RV's can fill the tank that way but have a manual valve inside the RV for that purpose. That would indicate a leaky valve in your new pump, possibly blown by that someone at your storage area. I bet he doesn't have a pressure regulator on that hose. (at least not at 40 psi.)
That little 'golf tee' check valve is to prevent your water pump from pumping water out of your city water hose hookup (from your tank) when you don't have a hose connected. RonB

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #5 – February 20, 2018, 09:32:26 pm

Cindy, you said you caught an employee at the RV storage lot filling your fresh water tank through the city water connection. I have no idea how that could be done.

Are you stating that they filled the fresh water tank by connecting a hose to the threaded hose connection on the side of your rig? Or did they fill the fresh water tank by opening the locked door where there is an ooening to insert a hose to fill the fresh water tank?

From your description, it sounds like when you are connected to city water, the pressure is overpowering the waterpump to the point that water is flowing backward through the water pump and then into the fresh water tank and then out of the vent next to the fresh water fill port. IF that is the situation, they must have had some extreme water pressure that could over power your water pump.

I have replaced several water pumps over the years and am well aquainted with the fresh water tank. The fresh water tank has an inlet behind the locked door where you insert a hose to fill the tank and it only has one other port which is where water feeds to the water pump.

If the water pump was replaced and installed backwards, I could see where the pump is feeding water into the fresh water tank instead of sucking water from the tank.

If NOT connected to city water, when you turn on the water pump, do you have water coming out of your faucets? If you do have water coming out of the faucets, that would rule out the pump being installed backwards. Did you replaace the pump yourself?

I hope you get this remedied and let us know what was wrong. Good luck,
Steve K.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #6 – February 20, 2018, 11:46:24 pm

STEVE-, just to confirm-yes, The RV storage employee had hooked his hose from his faucet to my threaded city water inlet (not the gravity fill inlet to the water tank). Definitely, he did not use a pressure regulator. He said it took a long time to fill. We then left for Ladeze that afternoon. (Sept.)

During Ladeze and subseqent dry camping, the water pump worked fine. The first time we hooked up to city water using a regulator, the water tank filled slowly overnight. After returning from Ladeze, a qualified RV mechanic replaced the water pump with the same model.

During subsequent dry camping the new pump worked fine. Last week we (hubby and me) hooked up to the city water using a regulator during a camping trip, and the water tank filled slowly overnight and came out the overflow behind the little fill door. Of course I disconnected the hose from the city water and used the water pump. The water pump worked fine for the rest of the trip.

Maybe I need to get the new water pump replaced under warranty?

RON-thanks for your explanation abut the golf tee check valve. I guess it isn't part of this problem.

I appreciate all of your comments.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #7 – February 21, 2018, 03:42:09 am

Quote from: Cindy Beck - February 20, 2018, 11:46:24 pm

Maybe I need to get the new water pump replaced under warranty?

That would be a good idea. The pump's check valve's failed, under pressure and allowed leakage into the fresh water tank.
The pump will probably have the same problem in the future when connecting to city water.

Larry

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #8 – February 21, 2018, 01:11:02 pm

Hi Cindy. Quite likely the attendant at your RV park has ruined the check valve in both of your pumps. (they can be rebuilt). You could have another check valve of sturdier make installed to help the pump survive another attempt by the RV park guy to fill your tank. But that would pressurize your internal water lines, and you could blow a water line in a hard to reach place. Perhaps the attendant would stop filling your tank when water started gushing out of your doors. Yes, the pump leaking water into the tank probably saved your pipes, and ran the excess water into your tank and outside, harmlessly.
If I were you, I would install a brass plug in your city water hose fitting, and put a label on it "Do not remove this plug". In 19 years I've never hooked up a hose to my city water fitting, even when hookups were available. I have dumped my tank and refilled it with fresher water at hookup sites on just a few occasions. I carry dry chlorine in a small container for those times.
RonB

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #9 – February 21, 2018, 03:45:06 pm

"If I were you, I would install a brass plug in your city water hose fitting,..."

That does sound reasonable, however, I use a different method. Long ago I got tired of manipulating the city water hose connection on the coach and instead acquired a 'Quick Disconnect' fitting, half of which is semi-permanently attached to that hose connection on the coach body. The other half of the disconnect lives on one end of the supply hose I use when connecting to city water. It's doubtful that someone else would have that mating part.

I even found a small plastic plug which fits into the half on the coach to keep any stray bugs away.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #10 – February 21, 2018, 07:33:50 pm

An even better solution to keep un-regulated pressure hoses away from your pump. RonB

Re: Water pump - check valve problem? UPDATE

Reply #11 – April 26, 2018, 01:33:35 am

UPDATE....
Back in February I asked this group how my water tank could fill to overflowing while hooked up to city water (using a pressure regulator). A new Revolution water pump had been installed in January and the February trip was the first time we had used city water since its installation. I really appreciated everyone's input. I thought you might be interested in an update.

Recently, our mobile mechanic (who had installed the water pump) came out and removed the water pump from the LD and we performed a couple of tests.

1). First, he hooked up a hose to a faucet at the storage place and hooked up the other end of the hose to the inlet of the water pump and turned on the water. Water flowed out of the discharge end of the water pump.

2). To check the check valve, he moved the hose end from the inlet side of the water pump to the discharge side. He turned on the water. This time water gushed briefly out of the inlet end, then slowed to a small stream, then to a dribble. Hmmm..

3). We decided to duplicate the process as another point of data. The hose was moved to the inlet end of the water pump and the water was turned on. As expected, water gushed out the discharge end.

4). Next the mechanic hooked up the hose to the discharge end of the water pump and turned on the water. No water came out of the inlet side. The mechanic conjectured that debris or something may have kept the check valve from seating all the way, and our "experiment" might have cleared it out.

In addition, this is our first camping trip hooked up to city water since our water tank filled in February when hooked up to city water. THE FRESH WATER SEE LEVEL GAUGE NUMBER HAS NOT CHANGED IN FOUR DAYS!

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #12 – April 26, 2018, 12:13:44 pm

Cindy

If water stopped coming out of inlet side of the pump, good chance the mechanic is right saying there was a chunk of crud (technical term) stuck in one or more of the pump's check valves that wash out when the flow was reversed .

Check to see if the SeeLevel sensor strip is still attached to the side of the fresh water tank.
If it has pulled away, tape in position using duct tape.
The sensors rarely go bad, your's may be an exception.

Larry

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #13 – April 26, 2018, 02:34:09 pm

"... this is our first camping trip hooked up to city water since..."

I'd like to clarify a couple of things...

Are you now hooked up to city water? And, when you open a faucet does water come out? Is your water pump on or off?

Presuming you are connected to city water, the pressure in that line is all you need to make water flow. The water pump is not needed in this situation and should be turned off. If this is the case you can expect the SeeLevel monitor to NOT show a change.

If, on the other hand, you are NOT connected to city water you would then need to turn on the water pump to bring water from the freshwater tank to your faucets and only then you can expect to see a change in the SeeLevel monitor.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #14 – April 26, 2018, 04:09:34 pm

We only use the water pump when we are not hooked up to city water (dry camping) and it works fine then.

Our testing was done with water pump removed from the LD.

Thanks, Larry for sharing your “technical terms” 😉

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #15 – April 26, 2018, 04:15:53 pm

Larry, Thx also for suggesting the fresh water See Level sensor may not be firmly attached. I will check it. However, once we arrived home and parked on the street in front of our house, we were no longer level and the fresh water sensor showed a different number.

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #16 – April 26, 2018, 04:19:53 pm

"We only use the water pump when we are not hooked up to city water (dry camping) and it works fine then."
"Our testing was done with water pump removed from the LD."

I understand that your testing was done on a bench! But that is not real world!

I'm more interested in the normal configuration, with the w.p. installed and all other factors as they would be found.

You said that in four days the SeeLevel gauge did not show a change... if you were on city water and your w.p. was turned off, you should not expect to see a change, due to the fact that there was no water being drawn from the fresh water tank under those circumstances. Was that the case?

Re: Water pump problem-similar but different than Don Malpas's

Reply #17 – April 26, 2018, 05:55:20 pm

Hi Steve, yes that was the case. Thanks as always for your thoughts.

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