New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

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February 05, 2018, 11:52:34 pm

Now our water pump is back working again, I am again working on electrical.

I want to replace our almost 30 year old system including all components (it is an all in one converter/charger/inverter/distribution center) that magically (without our help) manages power coming in from generator, solar, and shore. There are a couple of wobbly breakers even after one was replaced - IMO something that needs immediate replacement.
We are not planning to replace solar right now (we expect the current old ones are shot but have not tested voltage yet) but it can be added to the progressive components.
We are not planning to replace the inverter right now (until we know our needs better).
Replacing the converter/charger/distribution center components should be independent of solar & inverter components.

I am not worried about physical size - there is plenty of space and I am fine with reframing the opening if needed.

I did "talk" to bestconverter - actually emailed since they didn't return a voicemail in a day and I didn't get them directly on the phone but they were pushing boondocker as the replacement unit and wouldn't discuss progressive dynamics when I brought it up and didn't discuss components other than the charger/converter.

I talked to the guys at progressive but I had a couple other questions and thought I would pick brains here before calling them back with more questions.

1) It looks like a transformer is needed to manage generator vs shore power so only one comes into the a/c panel at once (e.g. stop stupid human behavior like exercising the generator while hooked on shore power and power from both go into the converter/charger). While the progressive inteli-power implies it has a transformer, the wiring only shows one set of AC power connections in. Any input on what transformers might have been original in the LD or where they are? I see nothing obvious in the space holding the other components (22tk '89, lower cabinet next to door). Our plug/wire for shore is one pushed into a hole in the RV (e.g. can't see what is on the other end). Generator is gotten to by going under the RV and pulling a panel off. Note: There is one small bin (4-6" square) that is close to the generator that we don't have a key for but on another similar LD (size and year but not exact) inside that door is an ac/heating type duct.

2) If I upgrade the converter/charger to a higher amp one, Larry has said the battery cables would need to be upgraded (to be able to handle 70 amp). I don't think any other wires need to be upgraded, but want to confirm I am not missing something with the the generator or shore wires.

3) The progressive tech person recommends no more than their 60 amp converter for a 30 amp rig as he says that uses about 1/3 of the shore power (3600 watts = 30a x 120v, their 60 amp converter uses 1000 watts max and he said when the battery was very low is used that much). However, their 70 amp converter uses only 1200 watts max, their 80 amp uses 1400 max.
I know some of you are using higher amp converters. What watts does your converter use and do you find any problems running devices (we rarely use the microwave, we rarely use kitchen appliances for all these maybe max a 2-10 minutes a day).

4) Their inteli-power (converter/charger combo) has:
30 amp distributor panels with 45 and 60 amp chargers.
50 amp distributor panels with 60, 75, and 90 amp chargers.
Is there any problems getting the 50 amp to get the larger charger/converter and putting a 30 amp breaker in the distribution main breaker spot? This would effectively make it a 30 amp distribution panel. I believe buying it this way would be cheaper than buying the distribution panel and charger/converter separately (intel-power units sold on Amazon, distribution panels are not).

Thanks, Jane

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #1 – February 06, 2018, 01:28:09 am

I applaud the idea of replacing the "brown box" power center, especially if it's an older one. Those things are not exactly sophisticated, nor are they built with the highest quality components. I've done the job twice now--on my 2003 LD and on my 2017 Airstream. I used Blue Sea AC and DC breaker panels and components.

"It looks like a transformer is needed to manage generator vs shore power so only one comes into the a/c panel at once"

No transformers are involved in that job--it's the function of the automatic transfer switch (ATS), which is a box attached to the back of the power center. It's really just a big relay with some added frills, set up to choose between shore power and generator power.

I've seen these ATSs fail enough times that I prefer a manual breaker/switch set with mechanical lockout. I use Blue Sea's #8032 for this purpose. Automatic is fine, but when it's not reliable...

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Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #2 – February 06, 2018, 03:22:09 am

Quote from: JandS2 - February 05, 2018, 11:52:34 pm

I want to replace our almost 30 year old system including all components

1) It looks like a transformer is needed to manage generator vs shore power so only one comes into the a/c panel at once (e.g. stop stupid human behavior like exercising the generator while hooked on shore power and power from both go into the converter/charger).
2) If I upgrade the converter/charger to a higher amp one, Larry has said the battery cables would need to be upgraded (to be able to handle 70 amp). I don't think any other wires need to be upgraded, but want to confirm I am not missing something with the the generator or shore wires.

3) The progressive tech person recommends no more than their 60 amp converter for a 30 amp rig as he says that uses about 1/3 of the shore power (3600 watts = 30a x 120v, their 60 amp converter uses 1000 watts max and he said when the battery was very low is used that much). However, their 70 amp converter uses only 1200 watts max, their 80 amp uses 1400 max.

4) Their inteli-power (converter/charger combo) has:
30 amp distributor panels with 45 and 60 amp chargers.

To control which power source, shore or generator, powers the 120-VAC Power panel, a transfer switch (relay) is used.
There are normally part of the Power Center, usually mounted on the back of the 120-VAC side of the Power Center.

I hate using and listening to the generator, so while I was upgrading the electrical, the biggest converter that would fit in the stock converter's location was used, a PD9270. A big, smart converter will charge the battery with less generator run time.
A smaller converter is fine too and would come with a most Power Center replacements.
Our PD9270 can use a lot of power when the battery is very low but once the battery is charged , the draw is much lower.
To get full advantage of its output, the wire between the Power Center and battery must be upgraded. The automatic, hidden circuit breaker must be upgraded or replaced with an inline fuse.
Make sure whatever converter you buy ise compatible with the type of battery you plan to use.

We have spent many nights driveway camping, using a 15 or 20-amp circuit. Many of those days have required A/C, so to keep the circuit breaker, in the house, from tripping, we need to manage the power usage.
On a minimal amperage source, the refrigerator is run on propane and the converter's circuit breaker is turned off.
With solar this isn't a problem. Even without solar, many times the A/C is only needed in the daytime, so at night, when the A/C is off, the converter can be turned back on to charge the battery.
If we do need to use the microwave (very rarely), the A/C is turned off for a few minutes, something you need to do even if connected to a 30-amp supply.

To monitor the actual120-VAC amperage usage, I like Progressive Industrie's EMS-HW30C surge and electrical protector.
Progressive Industries, Inc. | Rv Surge Protection
Amazon.com: Progressive Industries EMS-HW30C Portable Electrical Management...
Besides being a well built unit, it is hard wired in and is fully automatic. It comes with a remote monitor that can be mouned nearby.
The EMS-HW30C's monitor shows the voltage, amperage being consumed and indicates if the wiring is correct and safe to use.
It's handy for tracking how many amp are being used at any given time . It also protects the 120-VAC system from high and low voltage problems.
I consider a good surge and electrical protector to be an essential piece of equipment.

For most of us, the stock type, 30-amp Power Center, with the built in transfer switch, is more than adequate.
Staying with the stock-type converter will ease the wiring problems since the wires can be transferred directly over.
Changing to a different style Power Center, or separate components, could require a lot of wire splicing and new terminals, a lot of work for little real gain.
The majority of Power Center problems are cause by lack of maintenance. The various wire terminals, on both on the 12-volt and 120-VAC sides, should be tighten periodically. Loose terminals can spark and over heat, even causing fires.

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Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #3 – February 06, 2018, 03:34:39 am

Hi Jane. A loose handle on a circuit breaker doesn't mean there is anything wrong with it. As long as the switching action is crisp, they are probably fine.
One of the best features about solar panel(s), is they don't wear out, or 'go bad' If the glass isn't broken, and water isn't leaking into them, just clean them. Unless of course you really have to have more watts, and have plenty of extra money.
As Andy said you are using the word Transformer, when you mean Relay. an electrically operated switch. When the generator is started, about 20 seconds later (to allow the engine to stabilize), the timer delay allows the generator to apply power to the ATS which disconnects shore power to the coach. Handy if you want to keep your air conditioning running when disconnecting the coach. Like when you are packing up to leave. The solar provides charge in parallel to other sources and is only effective if the generator is off and you are not plugged into shore power. No magic involved.
That 4"x 6" bin should open with a CH751 key, and probably contains your dump hose.
When discussing converters, the output current is 70 Amps at 12v dc. The 70 amp rating is most useful if you have four or six batteries. With just two batteries (two 6 volt deep cycle batteries in series) you might not ever get higher than about 30 Amps, and only for a short time if the batteries were really low. The supply isn't allowed over 15 volts, to protect other components that may be hooked in, As the battery voltage came up to 11 volts or so, the current would drop to much lower. Only the wires, (two) from the converter to the batteries needs to be upgraded. A lot of that depends on the distance between them.
The tech was correct that 60 amp is all you need to supply your coach. Only 12v dc components are competing for power. Lighting, water pump, and space heater fan. Everything else is 110 V AC. The 60 Amp converter would use up about 7 Amps out of your 110v. AC. That is limited to 30 Amp.
The 50 Amp distribution panel uses 220v AC. Essentially a standard 30 Amp like you already have, and a separate 20 Amp circuit on a different phase. Usually only if you have two roof air conditioners, or if you wanted an electric water heater, or toaster oven. If you had to pay someone to convert your incoming power cord, interior wiring, distribution panel and branch wiring, it could easily be several thousand dollars and you would derive little benefit. RonB

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #4 – February 06, 2018, 08:05:28 am

Just a couple clarifications from my experiences Ron. First it is considered best to turn off the air conditioner and other high current draws when switching between shore power and generator. Also have them off when plugging/unplugging to shore power also. This helps not only the A/C but also any other wiring components from the surge when switching. Second a 50 amp RV supply is actually 2 x 50 amp 110 VAC (different phases) which gives you 100 amps available or 50 amps of 220 VAC. Pretty much overkill for a LD but much needed on a larger coach with washer/dryer, electric stove, multiple air conditioners, etc.

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #5 – February 06, 2018, 08:40:13 am

The first set of AGMs in my 2003 died due to overcharging from an inadequate controller (HPV-22B) and converter (Parallax 7345 that was stock). When a third 100W panel was added to the system, round 2 of AGMs went into the compartment, the controller was upgraded to a Blue Sky 3000i and Larry replaced the Parallax with a PD 4645 'kit':

4600 Series Upgrade or Replacement Power Converters

This combo works well for me; I am not a big power user, and 300W of solar allows plenty of 'range' for dry camping. The current AGMs are alive and well, but if and when they go south for any reason, I will very likely replace them with two wet cell Trojans (all there's space for) and a watering system.

As ever, YMMV.

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #6 – February 06, 2018, 01:02:57 pm

"Changing to a different style Power Center, or separate components, could require a lot of wire splicing and new terminals"

Very true. The total cost of replacing my Parallax power center with marine-grade components (including a ProNautic multistage charger) was about $1,100, not including a fair amount of labor by myself and a friend. You can buy a new Parallax 7345 power center for $345 from Amazon and drop it into the existing hole. That's a big difference in cost and complexity.

It's up to each individual whether the higher cost is worthwhile. For most RVers, it would probably not be. For me, the advantages were having DC breakers instead of fuses, ring terminals secured with lockwashers instead of setscrews that can loosen, the ability to switch any DC circuit on or off with the flip of a toggle, a multistage smart charger that gives my batteries the best possible treatment... and above all, knowing that my power center was not built as cheaply as possible.

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #7 – February 06, 2018, 01:26:34 pm

"Changing to a different style Power Center, or separate components, could require a lot of wire splicing and new terminals"

Very true. The total cost of replacing my Parallax power center with marine-grade components (including a ProNautic multistage charger) was about $1,100, not including a fair amount of labor by myself and a friend. Because a DC breaker panel is much larger than a DC fusebox, we had to do some carpentry. You can buy a new Parallax 7345 power center for $345 from Amazon and drop it into the existing hole. That's a big difference in cost and complexity.

It's up to each individual whether the higher cost is worthwhile. For most RVers, it would probably not be. For me, the advantages were having DC breakers instead of fuses, ring terminals secured with lockwashers instead of setscrews that can loosen, the ability to switch any DC circuit on or off with the flip of a toggle, a multistage smart charger that gives my batteries the best possible treatment... and above all, knowing that my power center was not built as cheaply as possible.

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #8 – February 06, 2018, 06:14:48 pm

Larry, thanks for the info. I have the progressive EMS on my list.

Larry & Ron thanks for the confirmation that only the battery to "power center" wires need to be upgraded.

Ron, Thanks for the info on the bin, we will check that out.
You said "Only 12v dc components are competing for power". The compete for power was the 30 amps (roughly 3600 watts) coming from shore with 1000-1300 watts going to the charger/converter and the remaining (2600-2300 watts) being used by 120v items in the coach while the batteries were being charged (Air conditioning, Microwave, refrigerator if on A/C, anything plugged into 120 outlets, etc.). The rep felt that people could not live with less than 2600 watts for those items (what was left after the 60 amp converter took it's 1000 watts to charge really low batteries).

Everyone - thanks for your experiences how you handle your power management.

Ron, I disagree about no problems when the circuit breaker will wobble vs being firmly seated with no/extremely little wiggle room. The whole power unit wobbling would have me looking for loose mounting screws. But a breaker wobbling inside their spaces by themselves can mean a problem in electrical connections. Case in point, I noticed two breakers were wobbling shortly after I started using our new to us LD. I had it on my todo list, but before I got to this issue I was standing by the power center one day and smelt burning plastic. I immediately suspected the breaker. We disconnected from shore right away then looked in the panel. The main breaker had started to melt on the back side (less than the size of a pea at that time). The "post" where it contacted - behind the breaker - it was charred. I believe this was caused because the breaker was not making a solid connection to the post (years and miles of jiggling) and how firmly it touched that post varied as it wiggled. Yes, this breaker did turn on/off crisply, it was how it was seated against the post in the back that was the problem (entire area around it wobbled as you flipped the breaker). And I feel this was a fire averted.
We replaced the breaker and it was better but there is still wobble there - so I think the same condition would reoccur over time and I am not comfortable with these not being addressed in the short term (changed to much better connections).
It is a 30 year old rig that has seen most of the U.S. (lots of travel by two different owners before us).
We also had a switch that wobbled inside the holder, and as you pushed the edge of the switch and wobbled it, the lights went on/off. Again, an indicator to me the connection is not good. That made the early fix list also.
I want solid connections in my electrical, I have heard of too many horror stories (luckily none serious).

Andy, thanks for the pictures. I had called Blue Sea today and it just left me wondering what you did (I figured it was a custom panel). I agree with you, I want our forever RV to have sturdy components for 20 years that I never have to think or worry about. I would go for something like what you did, especially since I can do the work myself. And I like the manual breaker/switch idea - fool (er.. human) proof. I will revisit that when we grow out of training wheels and into our forever rig. For now it is too much to put into a rig we plan on only using a couple years.

Our power center. Ok, the first owner put in swoopy things from companies that are now out of business, so it looks different than the traditional stuff and there is not places to ask especially when components came from different companies. Interestingly, a few AirStream owners also had these components, I think they were top of the line back when.

It looks like our wires take stops at other places (not obvious what they do) before going into the power center, so I am going to have to do more digging (turn off power and trace wires with my hands) and I might post pictures asking opinions (or just for fun - you know the "did you see this getup" type pictures). That way I can be sure where the ATS is located and what else is in that compartment (besides the power center including distribution panel, the generator panel, and the battery monitor).

Thanks for all the help,
Jane

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #9 – February 06, 2018, 07:01:14 pm

Hi Jane; Yes the breakers just snap on to the main bus bar in the back, and if the entire breaker is loose enough to wiggle, thats bad. I'm amazed to hear that that could happen. I will have to check my coach, at nearly 20 years, to see it's condition. RonB

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #10 – February 07, 2018, 02:08:06 am

Ron just 2 of the breakers were loose.
While you are at it, other electrical iffy things we have found...
Outlets that are loose so that plugs fall out of them to some degree. This is exasperated by the outlets being on the bottom of cabinets so gravity helps, but we had one that nothing would stay plugged into without help and another where the plugs fell out a little bit. Rather than the plug being nice and tight against the outlet.

We do have a 30 year old rig with lots of loving use. I was not worried so much about these items as I knew I could replace them.

Adding checking all outlets and breaker connections as well as the wiring connections I have heard others talk about looks like it needs to be on that yearly (or twice yearly) checklist.

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #11 – February 07, 2018, 02:25:21 am

Hmm, it looks like our existing energenius has a built in ATS (it takes wiring from shore, battery, and generator. It actually looked like a pretty snazy thing for 30 years ago.

However, the new progressive dynamics inteli-power only shows AC in and not a space for shore & generator wires.
The installation manual is a little vague.
I will call them tomorrow to confirm if their power center contains an ATS.

I took pictures but it is very hard to follow what is where as the wiring is all over and can't be gotten in one picture or even a video.
The two things I didn't identify originally just look like two posts next to each other - one has the battery wire coming to it, and what looks like another battery wire coming to the same post (maybe chassis as energenius documentation talks about it charging your chassis battery also) and another battery wire leaving the second post (so two in and one out ??).
Picture in the link.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/153980772@N04/26255502638/in/dateposted/[/img]]

I think I will not solve what everything / how it is arranged is until I pull the power center to at least look behind it better.

Andy, ok how did you get your pictures to show in the post? I have tried this twice and can't figure it out. If I insert an image it asks for the url, so I put pics on flicker, but nothing shows (just blank at that spot). Above was inserting an URL directly.

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #12 – February 07, 2018, 07:41:04 am

Jane and Scott-

When we purchased our 1997 mid-bath, I upgraded the innards of the original-equipment Parallax power center with an upgrade kit from bestconverter. Here is the link to the product Web page. Pictures for one installation are at this link.

The power center had a transfer switch mounted on its rear, as it came from LD.

Ordinarily, there is no problem with a movement of the circuit breakers when then metal breaker cover is off, as the cover fits over the faces of the breakers and prevents them from moving (much). If your power center is too worn for your tastes, you can replace it. Here is a link to the direct replacements from Parallax. You can also replace just the distribution panel (link here), although that leaves you with no cover over the lower converter section.

If a prior owner has replaced the original WFCO power center with some other "thing," then it would be easiest for you to replace it with the same "thing." The exception would be to improve the converter section if needed, to a modern three-stage charger model. If you were up for reverting the LD to its original design (sans "things"), I'd consider reverting to the Parallax power center, as long as their converters are three-stage and don't run the fan continuously. The "reversion" process would require more rewiring work, but is not impossible. At one point during my work on the LD, I had stripped much of the AC and DC wiring out of the power center. It all went back in without too much frustration. ;-)

Mark

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #13 – February 07, 2018, 06:47:57 pm

Mark, the original parallax was upgraded to the energenius right away by the original owner. Different sizes (at least a decent chunk of spare space in the cutout though the cover hides this. Can't replace with another energenius - company went out of business.

No big deal for me to replace the entire thing with a new one - brand of my choice. I have done house panel boxes before - same thing.

Info for the group - interestingly, performance dynamics sells their ATS separate from their power center. The energenious had a built in ATS as you all reported the Parallax did. I figure since I want the performance dynamics charger/converter I will stay with that brand for the distributor panel portion and buy the separate ATS.

Re: New power distribution center as well as charger/converter

Reply #14 – February 07, 2018, 10:47:53 pm

“I had called Blue Sea today and it just left me wondering what you did (I figured it was a custom panel).”

No custom parts were needed. In my Airstream I used the Blue Sea #8032 transfer switch I mentioned, plus their #8377 16-position DC panel and their #8097 6-position horizontal AC panel. In my Lazy Daze I used the same #8377 DC panel, plus a combined transfer switch and AC breaker panel (the one in the second photo I posted) whose part number I can't seem to dig up. Blue Sea offers lots of variations, so you can usually find something that suits your needs. Get a copy of their catalog and browse. :-)

“ok how did you get your pictures to show in the post?”

It's a little tricky. If you use the large, conspicuous “Quick Reply” text box at the bottom of the web page, you aren’t given the option to attach photos. (I wish you were!) However, just above “Quick Reply” is a gray button labeled “Reply.” If you click that, you’ll get a text box with more options, including the ability to drag and drop photos from your computer into your message.

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February 05, 2018, 11:52:34 pm

Reply #1 – February 06, 2018, 01:28:09 am

Reply #2 – February 06, 2018, 03:22:09 am

Reply #3 – February 06, 2018, 03:34:39 am

Reply #4 – February 06, 2018, 08:05:28 am

Reply #5 – February 06, 2018, 08:40:13 am

Reply #6 – February 06, 2018, 01:02:57 pm

Reply #7 – February 06, 2018, 01:26:34 pm

Reply #8 – February 06, 2018, 06:14:48 pm

Reply #9 – February 06, 2018, 07:01:14 pm

Reply #10 – February 07, 2018, 02:08:06 am

Reply #11 – February 07, 2018, 02:25:21 am

Reply #12 – February 07, 2018, 07:41:04 am

Reply #13 – February 07, 2018, 06:47:57 pm

Reply #14 – February 07, 2018, 10:47:53 pm

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