Solar Panels January 24, 2018, 11:04:57 pm Disclaimer: These questions are for informational & discussion purposes only, & not intended to cause any political upset, so I'll appreciate anything the moderators suggest or if they think this topic too political & should be deleted.I've seen some discussion about the 30% tariff on solar panels as an attack on the industry, & had previously seen something about the utility company in Nevada that has a monopoly that tried to derail the credits for people who installed solar because the extra energy beyond what they used went through the transmission lines to the utility to be credited to their bill (the utility had claimed that it was unfair for the non-solar customers to subsidize the solar customers because the non-solar customers were paying for the transmission lines/etc.). The Kansas City paper had some quotes today that some dealers in the metro & in Lawrence, KS, didn't think this was really going to hurt things much because "solar is here to stay."One of the things I love the most is the freedom the solar on the LD gives me, & have been giving some thought to something at the farm &/or at the house in town. I know that there's much more solar for those of y'all in the West/SW than we have around here. I'm just curious about the thoughts of those of you who have the professional &/or personal knowledge & experience that's lacking around here.Thx--Lynne 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #1 – January 25, 2018, 01:18:48 am It took me awhile to figure out if solar panels for my home were for me, first I needed to find a company to sell me as many panels as possible (they make you submit your past electrical bills and will sell you only so many) , and then to hide them on the back of my roof. We are hoping to have zero monthly bills. I went with Petersen Dean to get American made solar panelsThe up front money part made sense since we have high electrical bills in LA/Long Beach CA, and they seem to be going up regularly. To buy our solar panels, it took approximately 7-8 years of bills added up in advance to get my solar installed....that sounded like a lot of money, but then my electric bill should go away for as many years as the system operates, hopefully 20-25 years or more. Think of it this way, I would choose to prepay ANY of my bills ahead for 7-8 years, if the bill went away, if I had the money of course lolNow Tesla wants to sell me a home storage battery, to add battery storage that Peterson Dean could not offer me a few years ago. It would make my system more useful because if the electrical GRID goes down before I add a battery, I can’t use my solar system for anything until a battery is added, we knew this from the beginning. 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #2 – January 25, 2018, 10:20:29 am Clark, too bad you already have a solar system. Tesla could have sold you a solar roof as well: Tesla Solar Roof | TeslaI like the idea of solar on a home, and we have contemplated getting it however, it would not pencil out for us since our electric bill is so small. Now propane costs during the winter, that's a different story!
Re: Solar Panels Reply #3 – January 25, 2018, 10:30:11 am Go ahead and solar up, then use the power to do bitcoin mining during the winter and use the processor heat to heat your home, water, and pool. 2 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #4 – January 25, 2018, 10:58:49 am I feel solar for the home with grid-tie is a joke that allows the power companies to take advantage of their customers. Return rates for the power you return to the grid rarely equals what they charge you, and you have no use of your own solar in the event of a power failure. This does not have to be, but the political power of the utilities has thus skewed the picture. Off the grid is the only thing that makes sense, and of course the expense, maintenance, storage room, and regular replacement cost of the energy storage medium makes this solution unwieldy for most of us.Once compact, safe, and durable energy storage becomes available, it will be time to reconsider off-grid. I don't see any upcoming changes to grid-tie programs very likely.Steve 3 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #5 – January 25, 2018, 11:19:41 am I agree, Steve, off-grid is the way to go, given a choice. We have 2-acre property just outside the Tehachapi city limits that has power in some locations but most are off grid. We have debated what we want to do with this property for some years now, having contemplated building there, and would probably go off grid even though power is right across the road. Many of the homes in this area have wind turbines as well.Then again, we may sell or trade it. Anyone with a nice Lazy Daze looking for some land?
Re: Solar Panels Reply #6 – January 25, 2018, 11:55:50 am When Solar was a “new” idea so many years ago, it was apparent that a bank of batteries was needed to make a home independent from the power company. Once a homes batteries had “banked” what they would need to run the home only then did the extra energy funnel to the power grid and the homeowner would reap a financial benefit.Apparently, things have changed since then and many solar households simply became mini power plants and a repository for little else.Things now seem to be shifting, once again, to independence with Tesla getting involved. That being said it may be that the Tesla battery banks are a rental feature only in as much as the home owner pays a monthly fee for the battery bank.Some states are making solar independence a bit more realistic. Here is an interesting YouTube video on how one such state is taking a different approach to solar use on the home front.https://youtu.be/xs7LWScwE0UInteresting things are happening in the solar community. Kent
Re: Solar Panels Reply #7 – January 25, 2018, 12:05:42 pm I'm in the camp that says at home grid-tied solar just isn't worth it right now. If you really want to save on energy bills, that money is better spent on efficiency like insulation, HVAC, LED, and so on. To give a RV analogy: I love having solar on our Lazy Daze, but I've done much better in terms of payoff by converting to LEDs and moving everything I can (computers, TV's, fans, etc..) to something more efficient. I could double the size of my panels and battery bank or find ways to use half as much electricity. Conservation was much cheaper. Our state had (now expired) tax credits that really made me consider installing a solar system. Everything had to work perfectly, with some optimistic expectations, for the numbers to pencil out. The numbers turned red very quickly when you considered the added cost of roof replacement, electronics going bad, or changes in net-metering laws. YMMV in another part of the country. We have cheap grid power and time of use metering which allows savings by shifting heavy loads away from peak hours. Off grid cabins, RVs, something in the middle of no where - solar is wonderful. Rich'03 MB in NC 3 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #8 – January 25, 2018, 04:12:58 pm Thx for such a robust discussion...hope more will chime in. I forgot to mention that our small-town owned Municipal Utilities company has leased some city land for a solar farm developer. The city utilities (electric/H2O/sewer/trash pickup were first established with coal-burning power plant somewhere around the 1890s, and were still coal-burning when I came back here in 1989, but was beginning to make some changes (a pelletizer for paper picked up by the trash service to reduce landfill costs/supplement coal, etc.). A good decade ago they shut down the local generating facility & joined a consortium of other communities buying power on the grid. The new solar farm is not providing power directly to local consumers, but is being sold as part of the arrangement with the consortium.I've probably got 5-8 years left on the roof--maybe Tesla will have better shingles by then, but I've also seen a church & few places where they've just set up a free-standing array of panels, and I've got a good south-facing spot that gets no summer shade in the back yard that might work for something like that. Thinking...thinking...thinking...Kent--Thx for that clip from Newshour. I saw it when it was first broadcast, and was really impressed with the woman who is the CEO. She seemed really pro-active about what was good for her customers & the power system as a whole, as opposed to the piece I saw about the Nevada utility working for legislation to pull the net-metering rug out from under those who had already invested in residential solar, plus all the solar companies in Nevada that closed down.Lynne
Re: Solar Panels Reply #9 – January 25, 2018, 07:53:49 pm Hi Lynne,First, we live in northern NV and solar has always been a big discussion. We looked into passive solar about 40 years ago. At that time, the construction was way too expensive for the pay-off. About 10 years ago we looked into solar panels for our home. But, we've reached the point in life when we'd never recover the cost ($40K+) in utility savings. The solar controversy in NV. Yes, the early users of solar 'sold' their excess power to the grid. Yes, we have a lot of sunshine, even here in the north. However, anyone who has used solar panels on their L.D. knows that the solar gain is directly dependent on the time of year as well as the time of day and your location. For many years, those folks with solar on their homes happily sold their excess power to Nevada Power. Until the day Warren Buffett bought the company. It is now NVEnergy. With little notice, the solar subsidies (to purchase/install) disappeared. Next, selling power to the grid disappeared. The state and the people of Nevada had always supported solar and suddenly that was gone. The solar industry very nearly collapsed. It's still is a state of flux; we really don't know what's going to happen.I agree with the other poster that for off-the-grid use, solar is a great idea. Better yet, if there is a battery storage system attached. Solar seems to work well in some applications but it rarely meets the expectations. Perhaps it's still too early in development. Juli WMinden, NV 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #10 – January 25, 2018, 09:31:13 pm I had a PV system installed last summer for about 25K . Utility is Pac. Gas Y & Electric and historically my annual usage was in the 2-2.5 K range. Recently PG&E has been adjusting their tiers, baselines and tier levels and rates. They added a 'high usage' tier and time-of-day metering. Historical break-even calculations have gone out the window so it's hard to pin down a pay-off date. I suspect the rates will be going up significantly. The 30% Tax credit was an incentive. PG&E requires shutdown during power failures ostensibly to avoid having power going out on 'dead' lines. As Tesla power walls become more prevalent that may change (or not depending on PG&E vs CPUC). If more immediate concern , this year's Quartzite was my first extended boondock and demonstrated the inadequacy of my single roof panel. I can see the next LD changes.. 2 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #13 – January 26, 2018, 12:43:23 pm Quote from: Robin B - January 26, 2018, 09:19:38 amWhen do these new tariffs begin?The 30% tariffs will probably start with new shipments form China, existing stock should remain the same...maybe.While the cost of an installation will increase, it shouldn't be a full 30%, the solar panels are only part of an installation.The electronics, wiring and other parts can cost more than the panels, depending on the size of the system.There are American-made solar panels but few are actually made here, most of the previous domestic manufacturers have gone out of business, unable to complete with Asia, for a multitude of reasons.Larry
Re: Solar Panels Reply #14 – January 27, 2018, 04:39:49 pm Here's the article from the Kansas City paper that prompted my first question:Tariff on solar panels will not kill the industry, locals say | The Kansas...Lynne 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #15 – January 28, 2018, 12:07:16 am Here's another interesting article regarding the solar industry.The state of the U.S. solar industry: 5 questions answered | PBS NewsHourBill 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #16 – January 30, 2018, 12:08:33 pm Quote from: Lynne Broyles-Greenwood - January 27, 2018, 04:39:49 pmHere's the article from the Kansas City paper that prompted my first question:Tariff on solar panels will not kill the industry, locals say | The Kansas...LynneInteresting byproduct of the solar panel tariff:After Trump tariffs, Chinese solar company says it will build U.S. factory -... 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #17 – January 30, 2018, 04:03:16 pm Though not directly related to this round of solar tariffs, this is a link to an interesting article about the potential effect the concurrent tariffs on washing machines could have on a community, and about the effect previous U.S. 'anti-dumping duties' imposed on Chinese solar panels had on a U.S. industry.Hung out to dry twice, Tennessee city stumped by Trump's washer tariffs 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #18 – February 02, 2018, 08:19:56 pm Just heard about this on the evening news. Tesla and Home Depot are partnering to sell Tesla solar products in 800 Home Depot stores:Tesla Expands Sales of Solar Gear at Home Depot - Bloomberg
Re: Solar Panels Reply #19 – February 02, 2018, 08:52:04 pm I saw the Tesla display and sells rep at a local Home Depot last week. As I have an aversion to sales pitches and have little “current” need for solar at the Sticks & Bricks I didn’t pause to inquire, but it seems like a Tesla battery pack and roof top solar would be a better alternative to what appears to be the present installation practice in the big city.Here is a video about the Tesla Power Wall.https://youtu.be/eYTB7QJaClAKent 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #20 – February 02, 2018, 09:16:40 pm Tesla Powerwall 2.0 is more rectangular and flatter than the previous generation. It weighs 269 pounds and is 6.1 inches deep.Powerwall 2.0, which will cost $5,500, comes with the inverter included. Musk said it can store 13.5 kWh of energy and provide 5 kWh of continuous power, but will improve to 7 kWh at peak.Tesla estimates it will cost $1,000 to install Powerwall 2.0According to:Tesla Powerwall 2.0 battery: PHOTOS, FEATURES - Business InsiderPanels sold separately. Weight would be a problem for my 31 IB. 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #21 – February 02, 2018, 09:37:45 pm Well this is all very exciting news until the next challange to the battery manufacturing industry kicks everyone to the side with the arrival of Super Capacitors. Standard battery life, even Tesla’s, have a limit and are slow to charge and quick to run out of juice.If we could install a Super Capacitor pack in our LD’s, then charging may take far less time with our panels and the recharge life could go on far beyond what we currently enjoy with Flooded or Glass Mat/AGM batteries.https://youtu.be/7-HM8RQhmEkGood things are coming but they had better hurry...I’m getting older every day.Kent 2 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #22 – February 02, 2018, 10:17:39 pm Quote from: joel wiley - February 02, 2018, 09:16:40 pmTesla Powerwall 2.0 is more rectangular and flatter than the previous generation. It weighs 269 pounds and is 6.1 inches deep.Powerwall 2.0, which will cost $5,500, comes with the inverter included. Musk said it can store 13.5 kWh of energy and provide 5 kWh of continuous power, but will improve to 7 kWh at peak.Wonder how long it will be before bigger RVs are outfitted with a Powerwall?That's not a bad price for well engineered lithium battery, inverter and the complicated electronics.Being a packaged unit, installation cost shouldn't be high.Having that much available power would allow using marine-type compressor refrigerator, along with a smaller, much quieter generator. Larry
Re: Solar Panels Reply #23 – February 03, 2018, 07:39:57 am If weatherized well, it's just another holding tank. Hooking it into the chassis, hybrid-style, could recharge with regenerative braking (although the cost of conversion would far outweigh the gain in juice.) Chevy hybrid trucks had an in-line motor/generator just after torque converter, but I haven't seen similar from Ford.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #24 – February 03, 2018, 12:20:27 pm Quote from: Chip Chester - February 03, 2018, 07:39:57 am Chevy hybrid trucks had an in-line motor/generator just after torque converter, but I haven't seen similar from Ford.Stick around, all the manufacturers are developing or already selling hybrids of their most popular models.Ford isn't going to be left behind.Larry
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