Solar Panels January 02, 2018, 12:57:02 pm 2002 MB, 2 - 85 W panels factory installed. Under a mid day December sun I was getting about 1.7 Amps in Torrance CA. Last week in Yosemite(family of 5) the campground was generally shaded all day and I raed 0.4 Amps at best. Batteries are new. I ran the generator at least 1to 1.5 hour per day. I turned the heater off while sleeping. Minimum voltage in the the am was 11.9V although not a true rested voltage. Should I be expecting better performance from the panels? Is it time for some maintainence? Would appreciate opinions on this. Thank you, Matt
Re: Solar Panels Reply #1 – January 02, 2018, 02:10:40 pm The only maintenance item of note for solar panels is to keep them (very) clean. It doesn't take much stuff on the panel to cause their output to drop off.Take note of that the panel's output is limited to the output of the lowest output cell in the entire panel. That is, if there is a leaf over ONE of the panel's cells, the panel's entire output will be limited to the current that that one cell is creating. Thus, keep the panels clean and keep everything off of them. Further, watch out for anything that can shade even a corner of the panel as that will limit the panel's entire output just like a leaf. On my coach, the panels were forward of the AC. If I parked facing north when the sun was low in the sky (i.e. winter) the AC would shade the edge of the panels. With the Mid-Bath, one needed to park facing south for maximum power from the panels. I have forgotten the orientations for the other models.LinleySee: The Lazy Daze Companion: Solar Array for more information. 4 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #2 – January 02, 2018, 06:00:39 pm If you have a good digital ammeter capable of 10A, disconnect the solar panel input to the charge controller, and measure the panel short-circuit current. This will be the maximum you can expect this time of year. This should be in the range of 3.5A per panel, or 7A total, at noon, sunny, with no panel shading. If you get the lower figure, then one of the panels may have an open fuse. Covering the affected panel will give you the same low reading. LD installe the fuses under the panels, requiring panel removal to replace.Steve 2 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #3 – January 02, 2018, 09:08:45 pm Everything is working as it should. You're just not getting much sun. Solar doesn't work well in Yosemite even in the summer.The generator isn't much use for charging batteries. It's more for AC power when needed (air conditioning and microwave). Start the engine instead. Quieter, better charging. Our routine in a place like that is to run the engine for about an hour first thing in the morning with the Ford heater on full blast. Charges up the batteries and helps warm the coach. Then solar to top that off and hopefully keep up with daytime losses.Get an alternative to the forced air furnace, which consumes a fair amount of electricity. Permanently installing a catalytic heater is the preferred solution for many, but we just use a portable Buddy Heater that runs off one pound propane cylinders. Keep a vent cracked open a few inches. Don't run while sleeping.MH9BX Portable Buddy Heater | Mr. HeaterAnd if you haven't converted all of your coach incandescent bulbs to LEDs, you should. You can convert the fluorescents too but that's a bit more complicated and they are already somewhat efficient. And get some headlights for reading and some tasks. And reconsider any use of DC power to decide if it is really necessary in the circumstances. 3 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #4 – January 03, 2018, 11:38:42 am Good advice from Steve, Linley and Terry. I'll add that running the batteries down to 12 V or less will hurt them if you do it more than a few times, so avoid it if at all possible.When your budget permits, you may want to look into replacing those old 85 W panels with something more powerful. You can easily fit three or four 100 W panels on your midbath's roof. Panels are relatively cheap these days ($130 or so for a 100 W Renogy panel from Amazon), though of course labor is something else. Another possibility is to add a couple of panels laid out on the ground. The advantage there is that if you have a reasonably long cable connecting them (say, 30' of 8 gauge wire), you can set them in a sunny spot of your campsite and prop them up to get a better angle. (I use $9 folding step stools from Walmart to do this.) Of course you have to carry around the panels, which is a nuisance, but they'll let you park in the shade and still get solar power. 3 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #5 – January 04, 2018, 05:40:17 pm Thanks for all the good info. The most I have ever seen the solar generate is 4.7 Amps in Fallbrook, miday, summer with direct sunlight. I would of thought the 4000 W generator would have been a good source of batterey recharge combined with what I thought was a 4 stage converter providing the proper voltage. I am going to switch the non flourescent bulbs to LED. Has or is Lazy Daze provided factory installed catalytic heaters? I bet not and if it could not be used while sleeping I wouldn't think that change would be worth it.I am thinking more solar may be a solution. But LD seems to get it right so moving to far from what the factory provides would appear not necessary.The LD owners manual recommends using steel wool to clean the panels. I checked the amps when the panels were real dirty and again after cleaning and saw no difference. Thanks all.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #6 – January 16, 2018, 05:09:17 pm This seems to be a good place to add some input and a question in regards to Matt’s inquiry.We have two of the factory installed 100 watt panels on our ‘15 RB. It has the Blue Sky 3000i 30/22 AMP MPPT Solar Charge Contoller. I am currently sitting in direct sun (1:45 pm) in Indian Cove CG and getting 1.9amp input currently in “Float” Charge Status. Batteries at 13.3 I don’t usually get below 12.5 by the end of the night. LED lights, blue ray movie or two and phones charging until lights out.I did have my propane line plumbed at Myers RV Center in Torrance, Ca so that I could run a Wave 6 Catalytic Heater. Two reasons being quiet operation and no battery drain. I do run the Wave throughout the night but open the forward and rear vents to circulate the air and vent CO. Ocassionaly I will fire up the furnace just to take the chill off prior to firing up the Wave.While under the trees in Yosemite, I will occasionally pull the LD out into full sunlight to get a better Solar Charge. It’s also a good excuse to have a picnic.I have been reading the recent discussions on additional Solar Arrays and plan on adding a “Suitcase” system to the LD. If I am understand this correctly, nothing needs to be done to the existing Solar Panels or the controller when hooking the portable Solar Array to the coach batteries. Am I correct that both the portable Solar Array and it’s built in Controller and the Blue Sky Controller monitor the battery voltage and independently limit their panels voltage input into the batteries? If this is the case then a “Suitcase” Solar Array would seem to be the near perfect solution when camped under the trees and the portable system is set out in the sunlight. Is my understanding correct? Any thoughts?Thanks. Sitting in the sun and enjoying the desert.Kent
Re: Solar Panels Reply #7 – January 16, 2018, 07:22:44 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - January 16, 2018, 05:09:17 pmI did have my propane line plumbed at Myers RV Center in Torrance, Ca so that I could run a Wave 6 Catalytic Heater. Two reasons being quiet operation and no battery drain. I do run the Wave throughout the night but open the forward and rear vents to circulate the air and vent CO. Ocassionaly I will fire up the furnace just to take the chill off prior to firing up the Wave.KentKent, I believe the ventilation is required to replace the oxygen used by the catalytic process, not to exhaust CO. I think the process emits no or neglible CO. — Jon
Re: Solar Panels Reply #8 – January 16, 2018, 07:53:59 pm Jon thanks,I stand corrected. I found this on the web about, “Do catalytic heaters create CO”. 🤪Kent
Re: Solar Panels Reply #9 – January 17, 2018, 12:03:07 am KentI cannot come up with a place to permanently mount a catalytic heater that isn't too close to a wall, cabinet, or seat.Did you permanently mount your Wave 6 in your RB? Where?
Re: Solar Panels Reply #10 – January 17, 2018, 12:13:52 am Back to solar panels and a comment on Andy's suggestion about portable solar panels:"Another possibility is to add a couple of panels laid out on the ground. The advantage there is that if you have a reasonably long cable connecting them (say, 30' of 8 gauge wire), you can set them in a sunny spot of your campsite and prop them up to get a better angle. (I use $9 folding step stools from Walmart to do this.) Of course you have to carry around the panels, which is a nuisance, but they'll let you park in the shade and still get solar power."I tried using a 100W solar panel with an MPPT controller as a portable. I put 10ga. wire with waterproof battery connectors on a pigtail attached to the batteries with an inline fuse, ring connectors and nuts. (I used this pigtail for multiple applications, thus the 10ga. wire.) I then used 12 ga. wire running out to the solar panel charge controller and on to the panel. It did allow me to place the panel at an optimal angle to the sun and out in sunny locations, but it was sure a PITA to carry in my camper and it is quite a bit bigger and heavier than you might expect, as well as awkward to carry in and out of the rig. In the end, I have opted for rooftop solar and move the coach when shade reduces the solar output.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #11 – January 17, 2018, 02:13:13 am My Wave 6 is not mounted permanently to any surface. In our RB we had Myers install a quick disconnect with a cut off valve near the bulkhead of the bathroom door just below and right of the oven.Here is a pic of the way I generally run the Wave 6. Sometimes I bring it forward toward the twin couches/beds. Hope this helps.Kent 2 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #12 – January 17, 2018, 07:16:16 am I've been thinking of adding 1 or 2 100watt portable solar panels also. Renogy and others make a panel that is ~ 27"x40" dimensions.The "fake" spare tire cover is just sitting there waiting for me to store something in it. So if I can figure out where the studs are I may use these brackets for them to sit on. Amazon.com: Alise 1-4/5 Inch Wide Corner Brace Joint Angle Bracket Shelf...Then use footman loops at the top to hook either a couple bungie cords or a small strap. And use a piece of heavy fabric or light carpet to protect the surfaces. It looks like the cover is just large enough to fit 2 panels.I have a 50' 30amp extension cord that I carry and even though it is a bit smaller than I'd like I could use that to connect the panels to a controller near the batteries. I'm not concerned about losing some performance using that extension cord. And it would be carrying 1 less cable than a dedicated cable for the panels.Thoughts? As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #13 – January 17, 2018, 10:25:15 am Just a note that if ADDing solar panels, it is best to keep the open-circuit and full-power voltage outputs the same with your current set and use only ONE charge controller. This avoids wasted power and reduces the effects of controllers not switching charge modes in a coordinated fashion. Also, don't skimp on cable gauge - wasted power. Another point - if remote panels are your ONLY source of solar, connect them in series and use an MPPT controller designed to handle the voltage. Since shading should not be a problem, this gives the minimum power loss over distance.Steve 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #14 – January 17, 2018, 12:54:38 pm Quote from: hbn7hj - January 17, 2018, 12:03:07 amKentI cannot come up with a place to permanently mount a catalytic heater that isn't too close to a wall, cabinet, or seat.Did you permanently mount your Wave 6 in your RB? Where?They can be mounted on a wall or a bin door. The heat goes in the direction aimed. It does not heat up the rear surface. We have a long hose for ours so we can put it where we want it. The hose is coiled behind forward dinette seat [MB]. The Wave is stored under the forward dinette seat.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #15 – January 17, 2018, 02:23:21 pm Thanks Steve,So from what I read from your response it is best to have portable panels that can be plugged in/out of the Blue Sky controller and avoid the second controller that often comes with a “suitcase” solar panel assembly. In as much as I am not familiar with Solar upgrades all this is a bit above me. I’m wondering if the Blue Sky controller has an input for additional portable panels or where in fact the additional portable panels would be placed in line with the primary controller. Perhaps I had better leave this up to the professionals. I certainly don’t want to mess up my system. It really has suited us well.Any advice on how to attach the additional panels, however, is greatly appreciated. At any rate it appears that it is time to pump up my gray matter with Solar Energy input.Kent 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #16 – January 17, 2018, 03:58:04 pm I just "skimmed" through this thread, and got a few impressions to which I wanted to respond. First, regarding the factory knowing best about solar, not so. We each have different needs. I know people who do fine with 1 panel. I started with 4, upgraded to 5 and I wish I could fit a sixth one up there. Solar should be sized based on where, when, and how you use your RV. Thus, there is no "right" number of panels.Second, I saw some posts about people wondering why they are getting so few amps from their panels, and that their batteries are at 13.3 volts. Now, I might have this wrong because I am still learning about my new controller, but it is my impression that the controller will bring my batteries up to 14.4 volts, then will go to a trickle charge mode until the batteries drop below 13.4 volts. During that time, I would read something on the order of one amp coming in. When my batteries are down a bit more and I have full sun midday, I have seen 30 amps coming in. I suspect that The low readings reported relate to the reduced trickle charge mode as throttled down by the controller, not the power being produced by the panels.Folks like Andy Baird are much more knowledgable about this than I, but the above might be helpful.Ken F in NM 2 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #17 – January 17, 2018, 06:27:57 pm Interestingly enough Ken, my panels and controller were reading 13.8 volts and 4.4 amps this morning at 9:00. Currently the controller is showing 13.3 volts and 1.3 amps input in the float mode. So this does seem to concur with your observations. I am currently going through my documents that came with our ‘15 RB and have yet to locate the Blue Sky documents if there ever were any. Still looking.Kent
Re: Solar Panels Reply #18 – January 17, 2018, 08:35:38 pm Quote from: hbn7hj - January 17, 2018, 12:03:07 amDid you permanently mount your Wave 6 in your RB? Where?There is no place for a Wave 6 to be permanently wall mounted in a RB.A Wave 3 can be mounted on the rear wall.Bath catalytic heater | FlickrMost mount a propane outlet under the stove using a quick disconnect fitting, connected to a 5' hose.This allows it to be aimed and allows it to be put away in warm weather, when it isn't needed.A Wave 6 is a powerful heater and needs to be away from flammable things by several feet, many find it to be too big and switch to Wave 3s. YMMVTwo Wave 3s would keep your rig comfortable.It's what we use for cold weather conditions.Cat heater in lounge | FlickrLarry
Re: Solar Panels Reply #19 – January 17, 2018, 09:26:04 pm Quote from: Kent Heckethorn - January 17, 2018, 02:23:21 pmThanks Steve,So from what I read from your response it is best to have portable panels that can be plugged in/out of the Blue Sky controller and avoid the second controller that often comes with a “suitcase” solar panel assembly. In as much as I am not familiar with Solar upgrades all this is a bit above me. I’m wondering if the Blue Sky controller has an input for additional portable panels or where in fact the additional portable panels would be placed in line with the primary controller. Any advice on how to attach the additional panels, however, is greatly appreciated. At any rate it appears that it is time to pump up my gray matter with Solar Energy input.The SkyBlue 3000i just has the two screw inputs, an added portable panel(s) will require connecting to the existing solar panel's lead in wiring and then to run new wires to where ever you plan on plugging the panel(s) in. It sounds like a bit of work. Wiring-wise, it would be a lot simpler to use two controllers, except for the lack of coordination between the two controllers. It's out of my pay grade to say if this is a big problem, my guess it isn't.A Steve suggested, don't scrimp on the wire size, I prefer to oversize charging wires, looking for a very low voltage drop.Larry 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #20 – January 18, 2018, 02:37:25 am "from what I read from your response it is best to have portable panels that can be plugged in/out of the Blue Sky controller and avoid the second controller that often comes with a 'suitcase' solar panel assembly."I think in many cases that's true. A couple of years ago I tried a two-controller setup (using a Victron 100/50 and a Victron 75/15, both MPPT controllers), and found that they constantly got in each other's way. That is, one would be charging and the other would see the elevated voltage, back off and stop charging. I talked with the Technomads and with Victron's usually very helpful tech support, but was never able to find a workable solution. I ended up going back to a single controller.There is a setup that is supposed to work this way: some of Blue Sky's controllers, such as their 1524ix, 3000i, and 3024(D)iL, when combined with their IPN ProRemote, can be networked together in a master-slave setup, so that you can run panels with differing voltages into the two controllers, but they will act as one.However, this can be a costly set of gear to assemble. And if you're thinking of going series or series-parallel with your panels, be aware that the Blue Sky products are sensitive to voltage and relatively easy to over-volt. Also, it pays to read their specs carefully. I recently burned out a Blue Sky 1524 controller because I thought it could handle 400 watts of panels. It turns out that that would only be true if I had a 24 V battery system. With 12 V, it's only good for 200 W. However, I will say that Blue Sky's technical support is excellent: after talking me through the diagnosis, they offered to fix the controller for free, even though the failure was my fault.By the way, it is possible to get Renogy (and perhaps other brands) suitcase panels that have no controller. Since the controller on these suitcase panels is generally an inexpensive PWM type, if you already have a good MPPT controller (and if it can handle the additional input load), it probably makes more sense to feed all the panels into the same controller. (That's assuming their characteristic voltages (Vmp) match up within a volt or so; otherwise efficiency suffers.)One good way to do this is to use a pair of Blue Sea PowerPosts to combine the incoming wires from the solar arrays, then run short jumpers from there to a single controller. That's what I will be doing with my setup: roof panels and portable panels all feeding into a Victron 100/50 controller. 2 Likes As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #21 – January 18, 2018, 11:39:44 am [quote author=Andy Baird link=msg=182961 date=1516261045There is a setup that is supposed to work this way: some of Blue Sky's controllers, such as their 1524ix, 3000i, and 3024(D)iL, when combined with their IPN ProRemote, can be networked together in a master-slave setup, so that you can run panels with differing voltages into the two controllers, but they will act as one.[/quote]This is what I use, 2 BlueSky 3024i controllers networked into a BlueSky IPNPro remote panel.
Re: Solar Panels Reply #22 – January 18, 2018, 01:50:10 pm I had Blue Sky's 1524ix and 3024(D)iL networked together with their IPN ProRemote. It worked, but as mentioned, a single-controller solution has turned out to be better for me.I'll add that switching back to Victron gave me much better ways to interact with my system. The attached photos tell the story. First, Blue Sky's IPN ProRemote: two data items on a coarse, green LCD that looks like something from the Eighties... a display that I have to find a place to wall-mount, and physically walk over to when I want to see what the system is doing. If I want to change any settings, I have to burrow down through three or four levels of menus, stepping laboriously through all the choices on each one and then holding down a button for four seconds to get to the next level. It's a pain. And the ProRemote doesn't even come with each Blue Sky controller--you have to pay hundreds of dollars extra to get something better than a single blinking LED.Compare that with the detailed status and history pages that Victron's Bluetooth-enabled controller shows me (wirelessly via Bluetooth) on my iPhone, iPad or MacBook from anywhere in my rig... or even outside when I'm setting up my ground panels, which can be very handy. Changing settings is a matter of a swipe and a tap. And there's no display panel to mount, and no wires to run to the panel.Add to that the fact that Blue Sky's IPN ProRemote adds $235 to the $325 cost of a Blue Sky 3024 controller, compared to the $325 cost of a Victron 100/50 controller (which can handle much more power, by the way) that already has Bluetooth built in, so no panel is needed... well, for my purposes, the Victron setup is a better bet in all ways. My Victron batteries and BMV-712 battery monitor also have Bluetooth built in, so they give me similarly detailed, useful information on my phone, tablet or laptop.Bottom line: there's nothing wrong with Blue Sky's controllers themselves, as long as you don't exceed their specs for voltage and amperage. They even have some advantages for lead-acid batteries compared to the less expensive Victron controllers I've used: external temperature compensation, and (when used with the optional IPN ProRemote) an "end amps" method of determining when to go from absorb to float mode that is superior to the algorithm-based or timer-based methods used by other controller makers including Victron. And as we've discussed, the Blue Sky controllers can be networked, so if you need to do that--if you have 21.6 V AM Solar panels on the roof and want to add 17.9 V Renogy panels on the ground--they're the only game in town.But there's no question that Blue Sky's controllers are still in the dark ages when it comes to interacting with the user. Since my lithium batteries don't need temperature compensation or "end amps," and I don't need to deal with voltage-incompatible solar panels, I get to enjoy the benefits of Victron's built-in wireless connectivity and well-written iOS software. 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #23 – January 27, 2018, 03:40:11 pm Solar just keeps getting better every year. Less expensive panels. Better charge controllers. More efficient and higher capacity batteries. This all translates to what Tim Allen has always called for...”More power”!Take a look at this concept all electric RV. Now we’re talking. I just wonder where Lazy Daze will find room for the stripes.https://youtu.be/bWBqQa7IXWUIt just keeps getting better and better in the Solar universe.Kent 1 Likes
Re: Solar Panels Reply #24 – January 27, 2018, 04:18:37 pm Too bad those solar panels are not transparent. I'd sure miss my big windows. 1 Likes
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