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Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
"2018: Stop believing that lead acid batteries cannot be run below 50% without damage. It is 20%, using 80% of capacity. Will we ever be delivered from all of the idjits on forums who just repeat everything they heard?"

Since I'm low on battery bank, have voltage stabilizers and have been priced out of RV parks I think I'll see how the below 50% discharge works.

Will let you know.
Harry
Harry 2006RB

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #1
Battery manufacturers will applaud your decision.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #2
The OP doesn't give the source of the '20%' quote, but, AFAIK (battery gurus please validate or correct this information), the plates in lead acid batteries that are frequently discharged below 80% will sulfate rapidly and kill the battery.  ???

2003 TK has a new home

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #3
Harry-

You can run a lead-acid battery below 50 percent. Doing so reduces the number of discharge-recharge cycles the battery can deliver before it "wears out." One chart I have shows these values for State of Charge/Depth of Discharge:

SOC 80 percent (DOD 20 percent)  --> 2,700 cycles
SOC 50 percent (DOD 50 percent) --> 1,000 cycles
SOC 20 percent (DOD 80 percent) --> 540 cycles

As SOC decreases (DOD increases) you need to be prepared to replace your batteries more often. Note: These values are from a manufacturer's tests; I'd expect "real-world" values to be worse (that is, fewer cycles than listed).

It helps to have a battery monitor in your coach (Victron, Trimetric, Magnum, etc.), or to use a hydrometer to test the battery cell specific gravity. These are accurate methods to determine State of Charge. The LD built-in indicator is not accurate.
Former owner, 31-foot gas Class A
Former owner, 1997-8 mid-bath

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #4
The quote is from handy bob

FAQ’s PLEASE READ THIS FIRST « HandyBob's Blog

Just thought I'd light you guys up a bit. I will do it since I have such a small battery bank, have been priced out of RV parks, and have been having to choose between sat TV/DVD and furnace. Fifty bucks a night pays for a lot of battery if it ends up that way.

It was mentioned in another forum that before the days of battery monitors you couldn't flirt with the lower end because you didn't know where you were, today you can. It isn't that I can't pay $50/night, I just refuse to.
Harry 2006RB

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #5

In addition to what Joan said, the deeper you discharge a battery on a regular basis, the shorter its lifespan will be. This chart from the Lifeline Battery Manual tells the story. At 30% depth of discharge (70% state of charge), you can expect about 2000 charge/discharge cycles before the battery is unusable. At 80% discharge, after only about 500 cycles, you'll be buying a replacement. (The chart is for Lifeline AGM batteries; I'd expect the less expensive Trojan or Interstate flooded-cell batteries to show a similar curve, but perhaps with fewer cycles overall.)

"Since I'm low on battery bank..."

There are really two factors here. You need enough storage capacity in your batteries, but equally important, you need to be able to replace the power you take from those batteries. Driving is one way to do that, but you'd have to drive every day or two to keep your batteries up. (Idling the engine while parked is a last resort; it's slow charging and not great for your engine or the environment.) Running your generator, if you have one, will work, but your neighbors won't thank you for it.

Have you thought about adding a couple of solar panels? That's clean, silent power that costs nothing after the initial investment. And with today's dropping prices, the initial investment doesn't have to be a big one. Even a 100 W "suitcase" system can be help keep your batteries topped off.

"...have voltage stabilizers..."

I'm not sure what voltage stabilizers you're talking about. Can you fill us in?

"and have been priced out of RV parks..."

If you're talking about commercial RV parks are too expensive, you might want to try Passport America. For $44 a year they offer 50% discounts at 1,800+ commercial campgrounds. You only have to spend a couple of nights a year at commercial campgrounds for that membership to pay for itself. And you might try state parks, which tend to be less expensive than commercial parks.

Of course, there's always dry-camping, my personal favorite lifestyle. Which brings us back to solar panels. For boondocking, they can't be beat.

"I think I'll see how the below 50% discharge works."

As others have said, I think you'll be buying replacement batteries sooner rather than later if you do. Why not consider the alternatives just mentioned?

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #6
HandyBob means well, but his website has a great deal of wrong and outdated information. He continues to insist that PWM controllers are better than MPPT controllers in most uses. I don't know of anybody who has used both who would agree. He claims that flexible panels "start out with a 16.5V rating," but my HQST flexible panels have a Vmp of 17.9 volts, the same as my rigid Renogy Eclipse panels. He says that "Venting is an 'over blown' issue. Worry more about the smell than danger from Hydrogen gas." That advice could be fatal. And he makes categorical statements such as "If the controller is on the back of the panel, it cannot work." Well, yes it can, if you pay attention to the connection from there to your batteries (keep it short and thick). And so on.

Bob's statement about discharging batteries to 20% is typical. Yes, you can run them down that far. What he doesn't tell you is that if you make a habit of it, you'll be buying new batteries three or four times as often. That's very expensive advice.

I'm not saying that everything Bob says is wrong. The problem is that if you pick any given statement from his lengthy, angry ramblings, the chances are about 50% that it's outdated, misleading, or just plain incorrect... and unless you have a good understanding of electricity and plenty of experience with solar installations on RVs, it's hard to tell the difference between the wheat and the chaff. For that reason I can't recommend his advice to anybody.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #7
"It isn't that I can't pay $50/night, I just refuse to."

This is a dilemma that we are all facing now.  In my own town, and in towns all across the west, when we are traveling, I see signs on motels that say variations on "$36./night/single".  In reality, an average night in a motel is likely a lot more than that, and I really don't want to stay in a motel room, but I'm having some difficulty understanding the new rate structures at campgrounds, where a spot of ground and utilities are provided, but there is no provided structure, before/after cleaning costs, towels, nor consumable amenities, as in a motel/hotel stay.

I doubt that campground owners are becoming overnight millionaires, and motel owners/operators are not becoming impoverished, so how do we parse the disparity in these prices?

Personally, we have sufficient electrical power for continuous boondocking, and water resources to last two of us a week, even if we aren't particularly obsessed with water conservation.  Therefore, the need for a campground facility is limited, but remains convenient for regurgitating and replenishing the water supply in comfortable surroundings, but paying $50. for this privilege seems egregious. 

I haven't tried it in many years, but we formerly would pull into a campground during the early afternoon (not at a destination), and ask to deal with the water situation.  Sometimes there was a charge; sometimes not, but we always paid some sort of honorarium for the privilege.  I'm pretty sure this is likely not the case these days, but maybe it is - I just haven't tried it in 15 or so years.

On other days, finding an appropriate boondocking overnight spot might be difficult, or too time consuming, for one reason or another, thus a dry camping spot at a regulation campground could be utilized.  This "overflow"-type site costs the campground operator practically nothing unless you flush their toilet, I guess, but they could easily put a double sawbuck tariff on such a spot and still make a decent ROI for the night.  So much more pleasant than a parking lot at a retail emporium, truck/rest stop, or restaurant.  But in reality the cost differential between "dry" and "FHU" for the night at a campground can be as little as $3. or $4., so probably not a practical thing to do.

There are so many new and easy-to-use resources now for finding places to turn off the RV engine at the end of the driving day that finding such places is probably a lot easier now than when I was last in the navigator's seat, and I look forward to giving it a whirl - one of these days - really soon!  ;->

   Virtual hugs,

   Judie  <-- Sierra Vista, Arizona
   Adventures of Dorrie Anne | Photographing the West

   Today:  Two Soups
   ******************
 

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #8
"2018: Stop believing that lead acid batteries cannot be run below 50% without damage. It is 20%, using 80% of capacity. Will we ever be delivered from all of the idjits on forums who just repeat everything they heard"

Will let you know.

That goes against all the research, training and information that the major battery manufacturers provide.

Several decades ago I attended a two-day deep cycle battery class, taught by Trojan battery engineers.
The object of the class was to teach the proper charging and use of deep cycle batteries, in industrial applications.
They taught just the opposite of what you are suggesting.
Must have been fake news.

My suggestion is to be more picky about where you obtain your information from.
Just because you read it on the internet,  doesn't make it right

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #9
Money wise it seems to me I'm ahead halving the life of two flooded cell batteries than I would be replacing them with four AGMs. Considering that AGMs are much more expensive I'm way ahead.

I doubt that I ever see 20% charge but I'll probably be below 50% a few times.

Considering how many people I know that have ruined AGM batteries I have an aversion to them anyhow. We will see how it goes. Accidental overcharge or undercharge is common. We have all done it and AGMs don't like it.

I get a lot more utility out of my electrical system after reading Handybob's rant years ago than I did before so I appreciate it. I had already decided to begin use of the lower end of the battery capacity before I saw his recent statement so it caught my attention.

I do have solar. Two hundred watts is not enough but it certainly helps. I will not run a generator in the evening, except for short periods to run the microwave, even if my neighbor does. When I need the generator to battery charge I run it in the morning.
Harry 2006RB

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #10
Do you have a catalytic heater? I find that a quick run of the furnace in the AM or when returning after a time away is all I need to run it if I fire up the cat heater to maintain. That takes no electricity and so does no run down the batteries. All LED lighting, a 22" LED backlit TV that draws 2A or less, and a 2TB hard drive and media player that adds about 0.5A to the mix, with about 80 movies and hundreds of TV shows for long evenings of entertainment. The 200W of solar with an MPPT controller is more than adequate, but installing a tilt-mount for the panels would do well in the winter, and should bring your batteries up to full charge in a day's time.

Check your battery voltage after dark a few hours. A reading around 10V or less would indicate shorted cells.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #11
Nope, no catalytic heater, yet, and right now don't think I'm gonna go there even tho it is good advice electrically. Tapping into the propane supply is certainly possible and I need to look into the possibilities for an RB. Batteries are five years old. All LED lighting.

Off grid I can't tolerate the current draw of all the electronics on standby all day/night. Sat receiver loses it's channel memory and no program recording on the DVR when you turn their power off.  I might change my mind on that. The 22" LED TV is very good, power wise. Good thing we don't have CRT TVs any more!

The satellite TV and DVR is my main electrical sin. Without that I'd be ahead of the power game.

With old batteries it will be an interesting exercise.
Harry
Harry 2006RB

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #12
"we formerly would pull into a campground during the early afternoon (not at a destination), and ask to deal with the water situation. Sometimes there was a charge; sometimes not, but we always paid some sort of honorarium for the privilege. I'm pretty sure this is likely not the case these days, but maybe it is - I just haven't tried it in 15 or so years."

Most commercial campgrounds and state parks I've visited allow use of their dump station and freshwater fill for a charge--usually $10-$15.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #13
"I doubt that campground owners are becoming overnight millionaires, and motel owners/operators are not becoming impoverished, so how do we parse the disparity in these prices?"

I can't explain it either, other than supply and demand. Obviously there are enough RV owners willing to pay the higher rate to fill a park on a daily basis so monthly and seasonal rates are no longer offered. Free BLM and Forest Service campgrounds are still available, usually with the two week limit. Forest Service fee campgrounds are still reasonable, especially at the "geezer rate." But also with the two week limit.

Supply and demand rules and the rates won't come down till demand declines. Were I a park owner and could fill it at the daily rate I wouldn't offer a monthly rate either. Declining demand is certainly not on the horizon so we either pay it or adapt to the still available free/low rate camping areas with no power. How long will they be there?

There are more and more parks refusing dump and water services for a fee. Check in and you can use it. One solution some use is to check in for one or two days, dump, fill, use the laundry, catch up on the wifi, and move on. Times are changing and we will have to adapt. Maybe the time will come when I, too, will pay $1500/mo but it isn't here yet.

Maybe checking into the the $30 motel and using the parking lot!

Local summer destination communities are tightening up on local free camping but their power ends at the town limit. If they had influence over Forest Service and BLM rates they would/will use it. Enjoy it while it lasts.

I saw a new Bounder last year with the standard battery (one battery, they said) with a compressor fridge. He will have to plug in every night till he upgrades the electrical system. The compressor fridge OEM install was much less than a propane fridge, I was told, so the manufacturers were doing it for the lower unit price. When I encountered it, it was getting a battery upgrade at Quartzsite, not something the owner expected to have to do. Shore power can get rare at Quartzsite.

Just a little ramblin' Perhaps others have more insight.
Harry 2006RB

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #14
There is one major difference between discharging two batteries to 40% charge and four batteries to 70% charge. The recovery charge time will be doubled.
Harry 2006RB

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #15
If you are off grid mostly, then adding some more panels on the ground on a DIY framework that you can orient for max solar as the day progresses seems like your best solution. They are pretty cheap these days:

Grape Solar 100-Watt Polycrystalline Solar Panel for RV's, Boats and 12-Volt...

Upgrade your charge controller to a mppt model that can handle the higher wattage.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #16
2004 RB.  We have 4 solar panels and an mppt controller.  Our 300ah AGMs needed to be replaced recently.  I hate running the generator, but in Yosemite for two weeks last fall, mostly under canopy, I was running it 3 times per day--unheard of in the past.

Constantly watching the battery monitor, even when the batteries are not old, to stay below 50% discharge gets old fast,.   I want to enjoy my time, not fret and I have better things to do with my time when camping.  So, this week, I installed (well, Rod M. installed) 4 250AH batteries raising my capacity from 300AH to 500AH.  Yes, they cost $1100, plus cables, plus Rod's 3 hours (barter), but now I can relax and enjoy life.

If we camped exclusively in the desert, the sun would provide more than enough power, but we don't.  We are often under canopy, as in Yosemite, so capacity matters.  Just my 2 cents.

 
Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #17
You may want to consider supplementing with a portable solar kit if frequently under canopy.  They are readily available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=lhc4SimrJPw
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264



Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #20
It would be to supplement the existing rooftop system. You could be under the trees and the portable unit could be placed in the sun.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #21

"We are often under canopy, as in Yosemite, so capacity matters."

I feel as if I'm missing something. Capacity matters, but it's no use without the ability to replace the energy you use. When you're parked under a canopy, your roof-mounted panels aren't producing any power, so if I understand your description correctly, your generator is what you use to recharge the batteries. In that situation, increasing storage capacity from 300 Ah to 500 Ah just means you'll have to run your generator even longer to get the batteries charged up to 100%, no?

It sounds as if what you need to go with those bigger batteries is more solar input. I heartily endorse Greg and Mike's suggestion of putting some panels on the ground in a sunny spot near your rig, to get additional solar power. My friends and I do this all winter. Since you already have a good controller (assuming it can handle more than 400 W), all you need is the panels. $250 will get you a pair of 100 W Renogy panels. Add some cable (I use AWG 8 two conductor cable) and you're in business. You can cobble up some legs to tilt the panels for maximum efficiency, but I was lazy and just bought $9 plastic folding step stools from Walmart. They fold flat and can be used for other things when not propping up panels. :-)

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #22
Let's start this off with a few admissions to keep my comments within context:
  • I don't full-time. The most I will likely do in a stretch at one location is 3 days.
  • I don't have a microwave, television, or other high amperage convenience appliance installed. The highest amp-draw item in the RV is the furnace, which is usually only used at the beginning and end of the season at electrical hookup campsites. For most of the summer, the greatest amp draw comes from the water pump, propane fridge control board, personal electronic devices, and LED lighting.
  • I don't have an on-board generator. I have a portable Yamaha inverter generator. So far it hasn't gotten much use, mainly because we have been either at a campsite with hookups or haven't run the furnace.
  • I have a Trimetric TM-2030-RV battery monitor and SC-2030 Solar Charge Controller, but I haven't installed them yet.
  • I will be getting a single 150W solar panel to install flat on the roof, which will go on with the Trimetric components this spring when the snow melts enough to uncover the RV.
  • I have a couple small group 24 deep cycle AGMs with about 150AH capacity stored under one of the benches in tied-down battery boxes (prevent accidental shorting). As the original spot for the single house battery was in the engine compartment, this new location allows for more batteries but also requires AGMs (no effective venting).
  • The house battery wiring has been completely upgraded with higher gauge and quality wire to reduce transmission loss to below 2%.
  • The shore charging system has been replaced as well to something more modern, although still sized appropriately for the task at hand. The old system was noisy, inefficient, and not doing the batteries any favors.
  • The 115VAC and 12V systems are still isolated- I have not installed an inverter. All 115VAC outlets are dead when not plugged into a generator or shore power. Multiple 12V USB outlets are installed for personal electronic devices. This was by design to keep the battery load to a minimum.
So, we aren't "power users". The RV is not a "home away from home" for us, with all of the modern conveniences. Rather, it's a warm, dry spot to base adventures from and a place to laze around in on rainy days or crash after a long day doing stuff outside. While I see the appeal of a "full-service" RV, especially for longer durations, I think they may detract somewhat from the original purpose of our trips (to get away from it all). The more I can keep the family outside of the RV, the better. Your mileage may vary.
 
I agree, HandyBob is crusty (I appreciate that characteristic). I agree that he is dogmatic. I agree his advice at times can be outdated, limited to his first hand experience with systems and installers- which may or may not reflect the current situation. I agree he has completely contradicted himself on charging voltages recently.
 
That said, he has a lot of good advice if you dig for it. I agree most solar installations use far too small wiring for the lengths of the runs. I agree most budget solar kits are complete junk that waste much of the available energy and give little indication of battery status. I agree any battery monitoring system that does not place the shunt as physically close to the batteries as possible is, at best, inaccurate. Any battery monitoring system that relies solely on voltage measurement is not a battery monitoring system at all. I appreciate the fact that he has contradicted himself on voltages recently, because it shows he is open to the possibility that he can be wrong.
 
As for PWM vs MPPT controllers, I would say that for a small system most lower-cost "MPPT" controllers don't really do what they claim and/or reliability is suspect. As my solar array will be limited on this RV to under 250watts due to space/shading constraints and my expected draw, I went with PWM. A good MPPT would have been more efficient in this colder/cloudier climate (Alaska), but I like the bulletproof characteristics and small footprint of the SC-2030 as well as its ability to interface with the TM-2030. The knowledge gained through monitoring usage and overall system performance will influence my decision-making process when/if I ever decide to upgrade or move on to another RV. As solar technology is constantly evolving and improving in leaps and bounds as it becomes more widely used, I don't think huge investments in current technology (given my needs) makes any sense. The one concession I'm making to "future proofing" is in the wiring backbone. Otherwise, tried and true will do just fine at the moment. Again, your mileage may vary.

I'm going to stick with the more conservative amounts you should draw the batteries down as much as possible. If in the future it is shown that drawing down batteries more actually extends their life, I'll consider it, but for now I'm playing it safe. I really, really don't want to buy more AGM batteries any sooner than I have to. I'm going to try to nurse this set as long as I can by monitoring them regularly and adjusting charging as required. There may come a time when I experiment with how far I can go with a set that is on its way out, but hopefully that is far in the future.
1983 20'

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #23
A few points Mike:

1) The shunt's distance from the battery does NOT affect its accuracy. As when properly connected ALL the battery current flows through it, it will develop the same voltage for a reading no matter its physical location. Proximity to the battery is important only due to the need to keep the high-current battery leads short for minimal losses, maximum current transfer.
2) Consider more smaller panels rather than one large one. This allows more mounting flexibility and reduces the chance of disabling the entire output if one panel is shadowed.
3) A cheap controller, whether MPPT or just PWM (both use pulse-width-modulation techniques), will be unreliable and may perform poorly. Among quality controllers, the price differential between the two is not that great, but the MPPT will bring the batteries up more quickly.
4) Matching ANY charging system - solar controller, converter, etc - to the charging source is not as vital as matching to the needs of the battery technology. All charging devices should be optimized to match the needs of your AGMs.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit

Re: Lead acid battery 20% state of charge
Reply #24
"All charging devices should be optimized to match the needs of your AGMs."
---
A critical point; the first set of AGMs in my 2003 died a premature death (one even split near the terminal!) due to overcharging permitted by an inadequate charge controller. (The single stage original Parallax converter didn't play well, either.) The second set of AGMs enjoys much smarter 'charging device' companions!
2003 TK has a new home