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Topic: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock (Read 2312 times) previous topic - next topic
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Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #50 –
Larry has a valid point. What ever happened to all those “ Gold Medallion” homes that were touted as the best thing since sliced bread?

https://youtu.be/Z5KEu5WvdnE

I’m all for clean, renewable resources, but I often wonder about the piles of recycled car batteries that will accumulate over the decades. Battery technology will, no doubt, continue to improve and perhaps Star Trek’s di-lithium crystals will put all these batts out to pasture soon enough.

Still, progress is generally an incremental advancement. What was once popular and in demand can often become the Smitsonian’s museum piece in the future.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #51 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Wonder where all electrical power to charge semi-truck batteries will come from?
Probably from burning more gas and oil.
Until large amounts of pollution free power is widely available, the benefits will be limited. Now, the tailpipe still exist, it’s smogging up another area .
IElectric trucks will require big infrastructure investments
Who is going to pay for it, Musk?

Not sure about the semi-truck charging infrastructure but Tesla's current (pun intended) Supercharger system uses solar.

Supercharger | Tesla
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #52 –
Greg--

I was wondering about solar as well.   I now y'all have a lot more of that out there, but I see it happening back here, too.  Our dinky town here in the boonies of north Missouri owns the local municipal power, trash, & water/sewage utilities.  When I was a kid they burned coal, & in the 90s (as we started separating trash & had curbside recycling) they were pelletizing waste paper to burn with the coal.  They are now part of a consortium that buys electricity on a wider market, but last summer they entered into an agreement with an out-of-state company to provide vacant city land for a solar farm.  I don't remember the specifics--we're not using the solar here, but somehow sending it somewhere to offset what is purchased with the consortium. 

We already had some wind farms in the far northwest corner where we meat KS/NEB/Iowa, but there are now some along US 36 between Cameron and St. Joseph.   I love watching the windmills as I cross the KS prairie between MO & Denver--it looks like giants dancing ballet across the plains out there where it's so wide open.

I've maybe got 5-8 years left on my roof & I'm trying to learn about residential solar shingles/etc., because I do love the solar panels on LDy Lulubelle.  If I were younger (with more years to depreciate the investment) & lived at the farm I'd definitely be considering a wind generator & solar.

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #53 –
Lynne,

One of the interesting things I forgot to mention regarding our recent overseas trip was the number of Tesla's we saw driving around Hong Kong.  I could of sworn I was in San Francisco, ground zero for Tesla's!  I'm not sure about how much charging infrastructure they have there but there must be some, I think.

By the way, if you like watching wind turbines, come to Tehachapi.  We've got them all over on the south end of town!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #54 –
Quote from: Kent Heckethorn  - 
What ever happened to all those “ Gold Medallion” homes that were touted as the best thing since sliced bread?
When I was  kid, the LADWP (Los Angeles Dept, of Water and Power) advertised Gold Medallion Homes as the home of the future.
Two decades ago,  we bought one and we surprised to find had a natural gas furnace, water heater and stove..
Not what I would call futuristic. In the long run, using natural gas was accidently the right call.
The house does have a nice Gold Medallion doorbell.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #55 –
Quote from: Lynne Broyles-Greenwood  - 
Greg--

I was wondering about solar as well. ...(snip) ...
I've maybe got 5-8 years left on my roof & I'm trying to learn about residential solar shingles/etc., because I do love the solar panels on LDy Lulubelle.  If I were younger (with more years to depreciate the investment) & lived at the farm I'd definitely be considering a wind generator & solar.

Lynne

Elon's got you covered there, too.  And on your timeline.   Tesla Solar Roof | Tesla

Chip
2000 Front Lounge
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #56 –
Without getting deep in the weeds of a topic near and dear to my heart --- TCO (Total cost of ownership) is a part of this equation that folks  overlook.   The part that seems to be missed because we almost do it automatically is the environmental  cost of the product.    We tend to pass that cost to the next generation.   For example - the cost of the raw materials that go into making the solar panels or wind generators.     The only cost we pay is the cost to dig it up and ship it to the manufacture.     Later, sometimes many many years later, someone pays the cost of cleanup of that mined area.  

We have done a study here in Oregon and found the wind generators kill and injury birds and other wild life.   The noise that those wind generators  make force wild life into unnatural patterns.   I guess my real point is there is no free ride or thing called clean  energy.    We or our children will pay for our energy life style in one manner or the other.  

As an aside I'm not saying we should do away with solar panels or wind generators just being clear eyed about it.  
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #57 –
Yeh, I've read some on Musk's efforts...takes a while for us to catch up with the coasts up here in the boonies--we let y'all work out the bugs & of course, we are the "Show Me" state.   :D

RE: "...the cost of the raw materials that go into making the solar panels or wind generators."

Though I'd read about some of the wildlife concerns with wind generators, I'd not thought about the material cost of equipment.  I'd only thought about the cost differential & aesthetics of various roofing material, & not figured "the environmental  cost of the product."  My little red-headed mama wanted shake shingles on this roof when it was built in '88 purely for aesthetic reasons, but the insurance agent convinced her to replace with asphalt after a hailstorm in '03; we don;t have the fire issues y;all do in the west, but the shake roofs of the 90s have generally been replaced with asphalt around here, though there are some metal roofs going on residential properties, too..

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #58 –
Greg--

Love the wind mill poc--I've never seen from that perspective.   ;D

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #59 –
To be fair, one must consider the environmental costs of our present forms of energy generation, say coal vs. wind or solar. Also, consider the costs of manufacturing a gas combustion vehicle vs. an all-electric, not to mention the operating cost per mile. If one can charge their electric vehicle using solar, isn't that better for the environment than a gasoline and oil operated vehicle? That oil has to be pumped out of the earth, then processed to make gasoline, and that internal combustion engine is made of steel and aluminum which must be mined, does it not?

.
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #60 –
Quote from: Kent Heckethorn  - 
I’m all for clean, renewable resources, but I often wonder about the piles of recycled car batteries that will accumulate over the decades.
Kent

"Piles" of batteries from electric cars are very unlikely. The economics are very different from lead batteries, as the lithium is very valuable, and they will be recycled.
2005 Jayco 24SS
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #61 –
I think you are correct, Greg.  However, I think that transitioning to electric vehicles for the masses is a mistake.  Electric vehicles charged from rooftop solar are a pretty clean alternative to burning hydrocarbons (with the exception of the disposal problem of the lithium ion battery packs), but for everyone who doesn't have rooftop solar, the electric cars will have to be charged from the grid.  The grid is powered by a little wind and solar and a lot of coal, natural gas , and hydroelectric.  Due to the problems presented by that nasty little third law of thermodynamics, the conversion efficiency from the power plant to the battery of the electric car is going to burn a heck of a lot of coal, oil, and natural gas to charge all of those electric cars.

Small hybrids seem to make the best sense for most people.  Small, efficient motorcycles and scooters are pretty economical for running around town and don't take up much parking or freeway space. 

Bicycles are the best.  Reduces heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, and obesity as well.

HD
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #62 –
"The grid is powered by a little wind and solar and a lot of coal, natural gas , and hydroelectric.  Due to the problems presented by that nasty little third law of thermodynamics, the conversion efficiency from the power plant to the battery of the electric car is going to burn a heck of a lot of coal, oil, and natural gas to charge all of those electric cars."
----
Bingo.  ::)
2003 TK has a new home
 
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #63 –
Folsom Costco today $2.79. Of that,  state taxes on 11/1 went from $.18 to $.30 / gal.  DMV will be adding a surcharge of $25-175 depending on vehicle value (>$60k - $175 )

Calif also has credits for 'renewable resources' including solar and wind.  For some reason, the source with the smallest footprint ( hydroelectric ) is specifically excluded from getting credits.  Probably something about a dearth of lobbyists writing campaign checks.  
TCO figures I've seen rarely cover remediation costs (filling in the hole where you dug up the iron ore, coal, or other ingredients) nor the environmental 'oopsies' costs such as the recent Keystone XL pipeline spill or the Exxon Valdez.

Joel & Terry Wiley
dog Zeke
2013  31 IB   Orwan   / 2011 CRV Tow'd LWEROVE
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #64 –
Quote from: JCT  - 
"The grid is powered by a little wind and solar and a lot of coal, natural gas , and hydroelectric.  Due to the problems presented by that nasty little third law of thermodynamics, the conversion efficiency from the power plant to the battery of the electric car is going to burn a heck of a lot of coal, oil, and natural gas to charge all of those electric cars."

"The grid" is not homogeneous, so it's not nearly that bad. Coal and gas fired power plants have around a 40% efficiency. The gas/diesel engine is very inefficient (~30%), while chargers and electric motors are in the 90% range. I've read that the using 100% coal electric power to charge an electric vehicle produces about the same amount of CO2 as burning gasoline in a car - a wash; using natural gas gives the advantage to electric cars. The amount of CO2 emissions reductions will depend very much on where you are; eg, the Pacific NW has plentiful, cheap hydropower, so electric cars are a very effective way to reduce CO2 emissions. Anywhere there is significant renewables powering the grid  will be a net winner for electric cars.
2005 Jayco 24SS
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #65 –
Harold (Blueox) posted the material you quoted; I agreed with his information.
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #66 –
In the industrial relm, money is energy.   The price of aluminum is related to the energy to mine and refine it,   Money is the energy to make it into an object,  Money is the energy to transport it.   Environmental restoration cost money.    Government subsidies and tax breaks  is the money that hides all of the supply chain costs from us!
Rodney
1988 Mid Bath
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #67 –
My point in its very unarticulated way was .....  I feel that wealth is not created just transferred from one generation to another.    For example, here in Portland, Or. we have a river that flows thru the middle of the city.   Two generations ago paper and timber mills dotted this river thru the downtown area.    The owners of the mills and their heirs made a very large amount of money.     Fast forward to today.  This river in downtown Portland is now a Superfund site.   I and all water and sewer users have a fee attached to our bills to pay for this cleanup.   It is my feeling the owners of the mills have reached into our pockets for their wealth.    
I have no problem with coal, gas, solar or whatever.  Its just the system in place should pay total cost for itself.

We all have a very long history of passing a large amount  of the cost of our lifestyle to the next generation.     
    
personal fine art photo stuff
TF Mack | Flickr
It's all good .......
2014 Twin King
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #68 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 


Calif also has credits for 'renewable resources' including solar and wind.  For some reason, the source with the smallest footprint ( hydroelectric ) is specifically excluded from getting credits. 
Hydrogen cars are still experimental, limited mostly to the the South Bay area of SoCal, where a couple hydrogen fueling stations are available.
Honda has leased them to locals for many years. We had a fleet of various hydrogen cars at LAX 15 years ago, all provided by the manufacturers, as test vehicles.The airport tests all sorts of alternative powered vehicle.
We had the first Toyota Prius and Honda Insights, along with many other fully electric vehicles.
My last work vehicle was a hydrogen Mercedes ($1,200,000 price tag). I was very careful with it.
Before that, I drove a battery-powered Ford Ranger for a couple years, learning all about 'range anxiety', a condition many electric vehicle owners develop. I preferred driving the hybrids, over full electrics, for this reason.

Hydrogen fuel is made from either using electricity to split water or is made from cracking natural gas.
Until large amounts of renewable energy is available, needed to split water, hydrogen will not be a clean source of fuel.

Larry

Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #69 –
We bought a two year old Ford C-Max which is a plug-in and hybrid, we got it about the same time as we got our 26 MB a year and a half ago.  The range on the plug-in battery varies from 24 miles in warmer to 20 in colder weather here in the Northwest.  We have put 17,000 miles on it in total.  Last week we got the 5,000 mile warning on the engine that it was time to change the oil.  This means in 17,000 miles 12,000 was on electric and 5,000 was on the gas engine.  Some weeks we do not hear the gas engine at all if we drive less then 20 to 24 miles before charging.  We have never charged at a public charging station, only at home.  I would like to think that we are off setting our 10,000 or more driving of our Lazy Daze over the last year with this electric hydro powered, recharged plug in vehicle.  

         Karen~Liam
           26 ~ MB
            Sirena
1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #70 –
I love these discussions...certainly not something we get much of here in flyover country--y'all just make me feel smarter for reading all this.  Such a wealth here.

Harold, thx for the discussion of the deeper/hidden costs--indeed, the price tag does not reflect the true costs.  Colddog--I've known generations of farmers who have dumped refuse (household trash/ag chemical containers/old equipment/etc.) in "the ditch" with no thought of the effect on the water quality down the way...it was just filling up a hole that couldn't be farmed.  Larry, I appreciate you sharing your experiences at LAX, especially as MCI in Kansas City is my nearest commercial option & they just voted to tear down the 1972 multi-terminal facility to replace with a single terminal.  I never see anything in the KC paper with the kind of tidbits you share.
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #71 –
Quote from: joel wiley  - 

Calif also has credits for 'renewable resources' including solar and wind.  For some reason, the source with the smallest footprint ( hydroelectric ) is specifically excluded from getting credits.  Probably something about a dearth of lobbyists writing campaign checks.  


This is also the case here in WA. Not sure if it’s federal or just our overlords Inn Olympia channeling the CA lead. But our electricity generated by the Columbia river system is lumped with coal generated. So local electric companies are assessing the required fee to subsidize “clean” sources.

All in all, that could be OK. If it worked. We are seemingly experiencing that difficult transition from old to new energy. Our infrastructure is rooted in the old, and economics have not caught up with the new reality we all want to see evolve. It is possible China and India will have a centuries long advantage as they are building new energy infrastructure for the future, as the USA was once able to do.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #72 –
Quote from: paul banbury  - 
This is also the case here in WA. Not sure if it’s federal or just our overlords Inn Olympia channeling the CA lead. But our electricity generated by the Columbia river system is lumped with coal generated. So local electric companies are assessing the required fee to subsidize “clean” sources.

I'm a Washington resident. My understanding is "new" hydropower is counted as a renewable source; "old" hydropower isn't. "New" means, in part, hydropower plants added after 1999 (not sure of the year) and efficiency upgrades to "old" hydropower (basically, all our dams on the rivers). Without this distinction between "old" and "new", I think we would have had new power sources being fossil-fueled instead renewables, the opposite of what was intended with renewable energy credits.
2005 Jayco 24SS
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #73 –
Driving back from the Bay Area yesterday, we got our first "in person" Tesla model 3 sighting so snagged a few photos in passing.  Somewhere in the Central Valley . . .
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Gas Prices - Dropping Like a Rock
Reply #74 –
Quote from: HiLola  - 
Driving back from the Bay Area yesterday, we got our first "in person" Tesla model 3 sighting so snagged a few photos in passing.  Somewhere in the Central Valley . . .
We too drove south down the I-5 yesterday and saw a new Model 3, wonder if it was the same car?
I spotted the Tesla's front grill, in the LD's mirror and was surprised, when it past us by, to see a small Tesla.
Other than the grill, it looks similar to many other small cars.
Also found a Tesla Supercharger station on Hwy 41, off the I-5, behind the Carl's Jr.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze