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Topic: Alignment - Bushings - Sumo Springs (Read 897 times) previous topic - next topic
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Alignment - Bushings - Sumo Springs
I found a post that is one year old from Ed of Ed & Margee fame regarding front end alignment. Ed, I'm interested to know if you're still very happy with the handling of your rig after the alingnment and contact information of the shop that did the work. Thanks!
Re: Alignment
Reply #1 –
Hello Mike.  This adjustment was one of the best changes we've made to our LD in terms of improving the handling.  There are many articles and posts about the benefits of increasing the caster on Ford E450's.   The following is just one explanation about the process.  WHEEL ALIGNMENT INSTRUCTIONS FOR RV

Our LD doesn't wander anymore making the driving immensely more comfortable to drive.  Of course, the RV still might follow an uneven road or an off camber turn.  And we're not seeing any abnormal tire wear.   We used Buck's Alignment at Bucks Wheel - School Bus Parts .  There are also several highly regarded alignment shops in the Texas area used by Foretravel owners. 

As discussed on the LDO Forum and every Class C Forum, the solution to improved handling includes proper tire pressure, good shocks and a sway bar.   As mention by Larry on this forum, the fittings for both the shocks and sway bar need checking because they can become worn and not effective.

So that's what we've done and it was money well spent.   Hope this helps.
Re: Alignment
Reply #2 –
Ed, Very helpful! I'll be contacting them. Thanks, Mike
Re: Alignment
Reply #3 –
if you want to buy the ingalls bushing yourself, i can confirm that this one is a real, re-labeled ingalls 594, for under 2 dollars each...

1999 MB
Re: Alignment
Reply #4 –
I had my 2006, 27RB aligned at Buck's Wheel & Equipment, in Ft Worth, this morning.  What a difference in handling! We drove about 100 miles after leaving bucks at 10 am. I'm excited about driving my LD again! Well worth the detour on our trip from Arkansas to Santa Fe. Ajustable camber bushings had been installed by a previous owner along with a Safe T Plus. Thanks Ed for a great referral!
Re: Alignment
Reply #5 –
Has anyone placed Sumo springs on their LD?.  I am thinking of putting it on mine.   I would love to hear others opinions and thoughts.  Thank you

-Dave
2003 RB
Re: Alignment
Reply #6 –
Crickets 8)
2003 RB
Re: Alignment
Reply #7 –
Quote from: soofligo  - 
Has anyone placed Sumo springs on their LD?.  I am thinking of putting it on mine.   I would love to hear others opinions and thoughts.  Thank you

I don't remember anyone mentioning these springs on their LD in the last year or so.  However, I've read many favorable reviews of Sumo Springs on several Class A forums.  I even think that Jayco uses these springs as standard equipment on some of their RVs to include their Class C's.  I kinda of remember watching a video about Jayco's suspension tweaks for the Ford E450 and it included Sumo Springs.

I suppose one of the considerations is how would Sumo Springs work with upgraded shocks and heavier sway bars?  I sometimes have wondered about the real world outcome if one "over does" the suspension upgrades.  I hope the OP might post their results if they decide to install Sumo Springs.
Re: Alignment
Reply #8 –
Quote from: soofligo  - 
Has anyone placed Sumo springs on their LD?.  I am thinking of putting it on mine.  I would love to hear others opinions and thoughts. 
Why do you want to do this?
Is the rear end dragging?
An LD that is loaded to or less than the GVW should not need extra rear spring capacity.
If loaded properly, and the rear is low, the springs may have sagged, usually due to serious overloading at some point.

It isn't uncommon for some of RV manufacturers to add rear air bags or other devices to increase the rear spring rate to deal with an overweight coach.
My brother owned a 24' Class C Winnebago, built on a E350 that, from the Factory, had added on air bags, designed to lift the overweight rear.
Winnebago also retagged the GVW adding 1000-lbs with this silly trick.
I have no idea how Ford authorizes this when the brakes, frame and axles, designed for a lighter GVW, have not been changed or upgraded.

Adding any device that lifts the rear will also make it ride harder, there is no improvement to be had other than a little taller rear end.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Alignment
Reply #9 –
My understanding of Sumo Springs and their highest and best use is they help Class A gassers not sway and pitch through turns so much. Due to their 12 or 13 feet in height they are a bit top heavy. You don’t have the same issues with a LD at 10 feet high and 5 to 10 feet less length.
Ruby, the red 2004 26' RK hauling Dave and Kristine hither and yon
Re: Alignment
Reply #10 –
I installed Firestone airbags in our pickup to counter the weight of the fifth wheel and later the camper.

http://www.firestoneip.com/

These airbags are quite robust and haven't leaked or had any problems for the last 16 years of use.  Installation was easy.  I have used them for leveling the truck font to back and also for occasionally leveling left to right.  The down-side of the airbags is that it raises the vehicle up a few inches and there is no additional shock absorption. As a result, there is noticeably more sway left and right when going over bumps and also "hobby-horsing" front to back on acceleration.  As a result, I run the very least pressure that I can get away with in the airbags.

I don't think they would good choice for a Lazy Daze.

A better solution for trucks are the Torklift Stable Loads that function to preload the helper springs, but again, I  don't think they will work for the Lazy Daze/E450 chassis. 
2014 27 MB
Towd: Either the Jeep Wrangler or trailer containing the BMW R1200GS and 2 E-bicycles
Happy wife=Happy life
Re: Alignment
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Why do you want to do this?
Is the rear end dragging?
An LD that is loaded to or less than the GVW should not need extra rear spring capacity.
If loaded properly, and the rear is low, the springs may have sagged, usually due to serious overloading at some point.

It isn't uncommon for some of RV manufacturers to add rear air bags or other devices to increase the rear spring rate to deal with an overweight coach.
My brother owned a 24' Class C Winnebago, built on a E350 that, from the Factory, had added on air bags, designed to lift the overweight rear.
Winnebago also retagged the GVW adding 1000-lbs with this silly trick.
I have no idea how Ford authorizes this when the brakes, frame and axles, designed for a lighter GVW, have not been changed or upgraded.

Adding any device that lifts the rear will also make it ride harder, there is no improvement to be had other than a little taller rear end.

Larry


Larry,

I saw the commercial for Sumo Springs online and bought into the idea of better performance for trucks and RV.   Addition, I plan to flat tow a Subaru on my LD.   It sounds good in theory.  Hopefully it does what it say it does.  I plan to have my mechanic install these Sumo Springs as soon as  I get them along with Hellwig  Rear Sway Bar.   Thank you for your feedback. 

- Dave

sumo springs - Yahoo Video Search Results
2003 RB
Re: Alignment
Reply #12 –
Quote from: Ed & Margee  - 
I don't remember anyone mentioning these springs on their LD in the last year or so.  However, I've read many favorable reviews of Sumo Springs on several Class A forums.  I even think that Jayco uses these springs as standard equipment on some of their RVs to include their Class C's.  I kinda of remember watching a video about Jayco's suspension tweaks for the Ford E450 and it included Sumo Springs.

I suppose one of the considerations is how would Sumo Springs work with upgraded shocks and heavier sway bars?  I sometimes have wondered about the real world outcome if one "over does" the suspension upgrades.  I hope the OP might post their results if they decide to install Sumo Springs.


I probably will "over  do" my suspension as I plan to flat tow my Subaru.   I ll post it here as soon as I install Hellwig Sway Bar and Sumo Springs (front and rear).    Thank you for your feedback.

Respectfully,
Dave
2003 RB
Re: Alignment
Reply #13 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
Why do you want to do this?
Is the rear end dragging?

Larry,

Rear is NOT dragging but every time I drive out of the driveway where there is a dip, I notice that the rear bumper area have a tendency to scrape as I exit out of the dip.    

Respectfully,
Dave
2003 RB
Re: Alignment
Reply #14 –
Quote from: soofligo  - 
I probably will "over  do" my suspension as I plan to flat tow my Subaru.  I ll post it here as soon as I install Hellwig Sway Bar and Sumo Springs (front and rear).    Thank you for your feedback.

Ideally you would install the sway bars and Sumos at different times, so the effect of each would be known.

Your LD's suspension should not require any upgrades to accommodate flat towing a Subaru.
The added tongue weight is very low, just half the weight of the tow bar.
Upgrading the hitch and bumper hardware, along with having the brakes and cooling system in top shape, would be my major concerns.

Rear bumper mounting repair | Flickr
Hitch receiver upgrade | Flickr
Larger transmission cooler E450 | Flickr

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Alignment
Reply #15 –
I investigated the Sumo Springs; as far as I can tell, they are installed in parallel with the existing springs. If so, they stiffen the springing. This should have the effect of making the ride more harsh.

In contrast, Keldermann sells an expensive system that puts air bags as springs in series with the springs. Series springing, done correctly, softens the ride.

Here are some guidelines I've culled from reading a lot of posts on the matter of suspension improvements. I am not an expert. This "information" may be incorrect/inaccurate/etc..

If you want to reduce sway, it's better to install a sway bar, or a larger sway bar if one already exists. Unlike the Sumo Springs, stiffening occurs only on the downhill side during a body roll, which is what one wants.

If you want to reduce the left-to-right coach rear-end motion when a truck passes on the left, consider installing a rear track bar.

If you want to raise the coach, consider air bags.

If you want to soften the ride, weigh the loaded coach and inflate the tires accordingly.

If you want to reduce wandering, or "vague" steering, get a proper coach front-end alignment, make sure the front-to-rear axle weight split is reasonable, the tires are properly inflated, and if you want, install a steering stabilizer.

If you want to reduce the duration of up-and-down bouncing after going over dips, and your coach is old enough to warrant them, consider new shock absorbers. Note: In general, shocks should not affect ride harshness.

We have a Class A coach now, and it's a whale compared with the LD mid-bath we had before this. Except for vague steering, I found the LD pretty mannerly on the road, with the stock suspension. The current coach, though, has several of the bells and whistles mentioned above installed to help it behave.
Former owner, 31-foot gas Class A
Former owner, 1997-8 mid-bath
Re: Alignment
Reply #16 –
Quote from: l1v3fr33ord13  - 
I investigated the Sumo Springs; as far as I can tell, they are installed in parallel with the existing springs. If so, they stiffen the springing. This should have the effect of making the ride more harsh.

If you want to reduce sway, it's better to install a sway bar, or a larger sway bar if one already exists. Unlike the Sumo Springs, stiffening occurs only on the downhill side during a body roll, which is what one wants.
If you want to reduce the left-to-right coach rear-end motion when a truck passes on the left, consider installing a rear track bar.
We have a Class A coach now, and it's a whale compared with the LD mid-bath we had before this. Except for vague steering, I found the LD pretty mannerly on the road, with the stock suspension. The current coach, though, has several of the bells and whistles mentioned above installed to help it behave.

There is a whole range of suspension improvement for RVs, especially Class A,  F53 Fords.
The F53 really needs helps. It rides rough and sitting so high, it sways and suffers from a shifting rear axle.
Henedersons, up in Oregon, has made a fortune installing all sort of suspension enhancements.
The try to sell everyone a rear axle track bar, to keep the rear axle from moving sideways. In my experience while F53 really needs it while it is pointless for the E450, which doesn't suffer from excessive sideway movement. 
The E450 has very wide leaf springs, it's the width of the springs that provide the needed lateral resistance.
Our LD's rear wheel covers sit only a half inch away from the tires. If there was excessive sideway movement, the tires would shift and touch the covers.... they don't .

Sumo Springs are bump stop extensions the replace the stock bumps tops. They will limit the suspension travel and will stiffen the ride, something most LDs do not want or need, unless they are overloaded.

Sway bar upgrades are fine as long as the owner understand that a bigger sway bar restricts the movement of the wheels by connecting both side of the axle together, restricting their independent movement. In return for restricting sway, they add harness and roughness to the ride. This isn't something most owners desire on today's damaged roads.

The stock E450 sway bars do lose effectiveness as their bushing wear. Replacing the stock rubber bushings with stiffer polyurethane can add a very noticeable difference, for a limited expenditure of cash.
Low buck suspension improvements for higher mileage LDs

Shocks are the most common upgrade, the stock shocks are OK for most but they wear out fairly quickly.  Heavier rigs can benefit from better shocks, such as Bilsteins or Konis. Both brands are available in different degrees of firmness and control.
The upper bushings,  on the front shocks, regularly loosen and can cause flaky handing, suspension bouncing, excessive sway and sometimes even banging, when the bushings have broken down. I have seen this problem on dozens of LD.
The lack of access to the the top driver's side shock bushing makes it very difficult to tighten the top nut.
I replace damaged bushings with either Bilstein bushings or aftermarket polyurethane shocks stem bushings.
Shock bushings | Flickr

Aftermarket steering-centering stabilizers are popular and mostly unneeded, if the steering and suspension are in good shape.
Do make sure the the stock stabilizer is still good, they do wear out. Ours was worn out at 60,000 miles.

Finally, the E450s Twin-I-Beam front suspension is very sensitive to its alignment.
Poor steering can many time be vastly improved by increasing the caster above the Factory rating, while all making sure the toe-in and camber are set to spec..
There recently was a thread pertaining to this.
Alignment
Before aligning the steering, make sure the front wheel bearing are not loose, loose bearings can cause wandering and inaccurate steering.

IMO, if the steering and suspension are not up to your liking, start with the basics and make sure the steering and suspension parts are in good shape and it has a proper alignment .
Check the sway bar bushings and replace them if they show signs of wear.
Make sure all four shock absorber's bushings are adjusted tight.
Finally have your rig weighed and then set the tires to the proper pressure as specified by the tire manufacturer or by using the chart in the LD Owner's Manual.

Larry




Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
 
Re: Alignment
Reply #17 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 

The stock E450 sway bars do lose effectiveness as their bushing wear. Replacing the stock rubber bushings with stiffer polyurethane can add a very noticeable difference, for a limited expenditure of cash.
Low buck suspension improvements for higher mileage LDs

Larry


Two questions on bushings. Is it easy to tell if they are worn by looking? I looked at ours on the front and didn't see evidence of cracking or other obvious signs. Second, how difficult are they to replace? Should note we just turned over 60K on ours.

Jim
Re: Alignment
Reply #18 –
Quote from: Jim & Gayle  - 
Two questions on bushings. Is it easy to tell if they are worn by looking? I looked at ours on the front and didn't see evidence of cracking or other obvious signs. Second, how difficult are they to replace? Should note we just turned over 60K on ours.

The front axle mostly wears the bushings on the I-beams. If you can see any daylight around the sway bar, where it passes through the I-Beam, the bushings need replacement. The frame side bushing do wear too but not as obviously. Change the bushings as a complete set.
The rear axle wears the small bushings on the links. These bushing look very similar to the front shocks's stem bushings.
Changing to polyurethane bushings, even if the original bushing are not badly worn, can provide a noticeable difference.

Excessive sway can also be caused by loose or damaged shock top stem bushings, so check them first.
Do check the all four shock absorber's top bushings, even if they look OK, they do need to be tight, torqued to the 20 ft/lb range. 
When the shock bushings are loose, the suspension can moved a bit before the shocks start having an dampning effect, expressed as excessive bouncing or side to side rocking, on poor roads.
The E450 has limited suspension travel, especially in the front, so it doesn't take much looseness, in the shock bushings, to have a very obvious effect.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Alignment
Reply #19 –
For those who really hate how the rear of their LD rides, there are aftermarket suspensions, made primarily for the commercial coach business, that can substantially improve the ride...at a big cost.
Probably the most up to date system is Liquid Spring's suspension, made for E and F-series Fords. it is a hydraulically driven, active suspension, able to change spring rate and damping electronically, It can also be connected to the stability systems, that newer RV have, for additional safety.
It is priced in the 10K range, too high for most RV owners but for commercial  passenger coaches, driven several hundred thousand miles, during their service lives, it is a tolerable price.
LiquidSpring Ford E-450 Suspension System for RVs

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Alignment
Reply #20 –
Quote from: Larry W  - 
The front axle mostly wears the bushings on the I-beams. If you can see any daylight around the sway bar, where it passes through the I-Beam, the bushings need replacement. The frame side bushing do wear too but not as obviously. Change the bushings as a complete set.
The rear axle wears the small bushings on the links. These bushing look very similar to the front shocks's stem bushings.
Changing to polyurethane bushings, even if the original bushing are not badly worn, can provide a noticeable difference.

Excessive sway can also be caused by loose or damaged shock top stem bushings, so check them first.
Do check the all four shock absorber's top bushings, even if they look OK, they do need to be tight, torqued to the 20 ft/lb range. 
When the shock bushings are loose, the suspension can moved a bit before the shocks start having an dampning effect, expressed as excessive bouncing or side to side rocking, on poor roads.
The E450 has limited suspension travel, especially in the front, so it doesn't take much looseness, in the shock bushings, to have a very obvious effect.

Larry


Thanks, Larry. Fortunately, we had the shocks replaced with Konis last year. It sounds like replacing the bushings are not something I would do myself.

Jim
Re: Alignment - Bushings - Sumo Springs
Reply #21 –
Please note that I merged the Sumo springs discussion with the Alignment thread. Springs, alignment and bushings all seem to be interrelated, and this will make it easier to search in the future.

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB