Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforcement)

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Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforcement)

April 16, 2017, 10:36:14 pm

We have been towing our two horse trailer (5,000 pounds with horses) with our F150 and sleeping in the trailer when we go camping. We are now looking into buying a 1995 LD 26.5 to haul the trailer with. Our trailer has a breaking system connected to our F150. If we put a brake controller in the LD, can we safely haul the trailer? We are first time RVers, so I don't know if the trailer having a brake system affects the weight that can be towed.

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforcement)

Reply #1 – April 17, 2017, 09:19:25 am

If the LD is rated to tow (more than) 5000 lbs, you're good to go. And you'll need brakes. And you'll be right at the limit, which is not the best place to be.

If it's rated to tow 4000 or 3500 (two common LD ratings) then you're not good to go. Brakes or no brakes.

Tow ratings are about controllability, weight/forces on structural elements, and capacity of driveline. Brakes are an important part of that equation, but their presence or absence doesn't make the other constraints go away.

If the LD has the legal capacity on the dataplate, you can upgrade the structure of the frame and change the hitch to frame-mounted, to address the compromises taken by LD during manufacture. (Several here have done just that.) You can also add a brake controller if the trailer has electric brakes.

Many, if not most states will require brakes on a trailer of that weight. And common sense would dictate the same, law or not.

The whole thing will handle much differently than your pickup, too.

If your pickup was bigger than an F150, (dually with gooseneck or 5th wheel) I've got a friend who is selling a combo horse trailer/camper affair in Ohio. Not a LD-level experience, though...

Chip

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #2 – April 17, 2017, 04:17:08 pm

split this out of the other topic for better visibility - answers to the specific question - Michelle

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #3 – April 17, 2017, 04:58:27 pm

I would not do it. Too heavy.
Even if the hitch were modified, does the 1995 have the V10 or a lesser engine?

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #4 – April 17, 2017, 08:57:38 pm

The one we were looking at turned out to be listed wrong. It was a 24 not a 26.5.
We stopped by the LD factory (we live nearby), and they told us that they started putting v10 in the 1997 models. So anything earlier than that is definitely a no go. We liked the LD, so we'll just keep looking for a newer used one. But even the new LD in the showroom was only rated 4,000 pounds. My husband crawled underneath it and laughed at the way the new hitch was attached. Not something we would consider to be safe for our four legged babies.

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #5 – April 17, 2017, 11:48:37 pm

Quote from: elanariedel - April 17, 2017, 08:57:38 pm

The one we were looking at turned out to be listed wrong. It was a 24 not a 26.5.
We stopped by the LD factory (we live nearby), and they told us that they started putting v10 in the 1997 models. So anything earlier than that is definitely a no go. We liked the LD, so we'll just keep looking for a newer used one. But even the new LD in the showroom was only rated 4,000 pounds. My husband crawled underneath it and laughed at the way the new hitch was attached. Not something we would consider to be safe for our four legged babies.

Be advise the 1997-99 V-10s only had 265-HP. In 2000, it was upgrade to the same 305-HP, as today V10.
For your heavy towing load, I recommend getting an E450 chassis, it is a substantial upgrade, in many ways, over the E350, including vastly superior brakes.
The E450 first became available, with the upgraded V-10, in 2000''s 26.5' models.
In 2003, the 23.5' models finally received the E450 chassis.

A good trailer hitch shop should be able the supply the needed bracing and reinforcement to the hitch and bumper.
The stock hitches is stronger than it appears, if the hardware is correct and tight.
The bumper's connection to the rear wall is a great source of strength (from personal experience).
Horse trailers are heavy and combined with the weight of the moving horses can subject the hitch and bumper to stresses that none of our toads generate.
Trailers effect the towing vehicle much differently than a toad. I don't really notice our 4000-lb Jeep much except when heading uphill nor downhill. Pulling a 4000-lb trailer or boat feels much different and more obvious. I think an E450 is better suited for pulling a horse trailer, it's a more substantial and stable platform. It's heavier rear springs can better handle the trailer's 500+lb tongue weight better.

Create a shortcut to 'Andy's Changes by the Year' app. It's a great source of information you need to know, while shopping.
Changes by year

Larry

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #6 – April 18, 2017, 04:09:58 pm

Before you decide to tow, check the GVWR. Add up the weight of a full fuel tank, a full water tank, the curb weight loaded with people, food, tools, etc., then add the fully loaded weight of the trailer. If you are at or near the GVWR you probably should not try it. Towing is about more than just the hitch. You need to think about bearings, suspension, brakes, trans, engine, cooling, etc.

Now, IF you will be well below the GVWR, and your route does not take you onto long, steep grades, then deal with the hitch issues per Larry's post, and enjoy!

Ken F in ID

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #7 – April 18, 2017, 05:30:07 pm

Quote from: elanariedel - April 17, 2017, 08:57:38 pm

We liked the LD, so we'll just keep looking for a newer used one. But even the new LD in the showroom was only rated 4,000 pounds.

Unless it was modified by a custom hitch shop, you're unlikely to find ANY E450-based class C that can safely tow a 5000 lb trailer. Do some folks tow with them? Probably, but that doesn't mean they are within the manufacturer's limits. It's not just the engine, but the frame and the remaining GCWR that would be an issue.

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #8 – April 19, 2017, 12:12:37 am

Thank you for the "changes by the year" link. It was very informative.
I am surprised that LD is still only installing a 4,000 pound factory hitch in their new models. We have found many Class C motorhomes that have a 5,000 or 7,500 pound factory hitch. In fact, LD was the only manufacturer we found that was not installing at least a 5,000 pound hitch on any new coaches over 24 feet. You would think that with all the talk of owners having to beef up their hitches, that LD would have started doing it already at the factory. As much as we liked the LD, we may have to go to a different manufacturer to get the towing capacity that we need. We have a lot of members in our horse camping club that tow with small Class C and Class A models. I do agree that the 450 / v10 combo is what we need.

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #9 – April 19, 2017, 01:28:13 pm

It is likely easier to construct/pay for upgraded hitch support (on a properly-rated chassis) than it is to retro-fit the build/center-of-gravity/ride quality of the LD.

And on other similar-sized motorhomes, the upgraded hitch ratings may be a result of manufacturer confidence/hubris rather than actual designed-in strength. Having not gone around to look at various mfg's class-c rigs, I couldn't say whether they're all that more substantial or not. But after spending yesterday under mine with a welder/fabricator, it's well on its way to better towing capacity using Ford-approved chassis extension techniques. (And yes, depending on tanks, etc. other MH could be reinforced in a similar manner.)
Always a wide variety of opinions about what 'good enough' is.

.An interesting question to pose would be: If I have to have my motorhome towed by a towtruck, can they pick it up from the back with a sling-style rig? If that answer is yes, then the rear frame would have to be pretty substantial. (Pretty likely most mfg's will recommend flatbed or front tow, of course.)

Or, just look to see if the original vehicle frame rails extend all the way to the back bumper. If they do, then the foundation for installing a standard hitch is there. You'll have to look at vehicle capacities (overall weight plus individual axles) to see whether you've got enough left for your stuff and a trailer. If the frame is OEM all the way to the hitch, then an equalizing hitch would probably be in order as well. The hitch ball will be at least 6' behind the rear axle, so that's a huge lever taking weight off your steering axle. An equalizing hitch is designed to address that potentially dangerous situation.

Chip

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #10 – April 19, 2017, 04:53:08 pm

Quote from: elanariedel - April 19, 2017, 12:12:37 am

Thank you for the "changes by the year" link. It was very informative.
I am surprised that LD is still only installing a 4,000 pound factory hitch in their new models. We have found many Class C motorhomes that have a 5,000 or 7,500 pound factory hitch. In fact, LD was the only manufacturer we found that was not installing at least a 5,000 pound hitch on any new coaches over 24 feet. You would think that with all the talk of owners having to beef up their hitches, that LD would have started doing it already at the factory. As much as we liked the LD, we may have to go to a different manufacturer to get the towing capacity that we need. We have a lot of members in our horse camping club that tow with small Class C and Class A models. I do agree that the 450 / v10 combo is what we need.

No need to abandon Lazy Daze. Any competent hitch shop can fashion a frame-extension upgraded hitch. Eckharts (in SoCal) did mine and claimed a 10,000 lb towing rating. Well, you have to take the Ford chassis/brakes/tranny into consideration before buying that, but the point is that a hitch fully acceptable for your needs can be fabricated and installed on any LD. -- Jon

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #11 – April 20, 2017, 11:36:01 am

Can I tow a Toyota 4Runner with a hitch upgrade?
I have a 2002 LD E-450

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #12 – April 20, 2017, 01:21:06 pm

Quote from: NADAZE! - April 20, 2017, 11:36:01 am

Can I tow a Toyota 4Runner with a hitch upgrade?

Check the 4Runner's owners manual to see if it can be flat towed.
I seriously doubt it is possible without a of driveline modifications, having investigating towing a older Toyota 4X4 Tacoma or 4Runner.
Toyota's transferases are not self lubricating, when towed and the engine is not running, where Jeep's transfercases are all flat towable.

Besides that, 4Runners weight too much, the newer the heavier.
While the chassis can handle more than 4000-lbs of towed weight, LD discourages it by keeping the bumper rating at 4000-lbs.
We have tow a 4000-lb Jeep, for 80,000 miles, and wouldn't want it to be heavier. It's more than enough weight to pull uphill and to keep from running away on steep downgrades.
If you live out west, you should know about the hundreds of steep grades that will be encountered .

Larry

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #13 – April 20, 2017, 04:13:45 pm

You can't tow a 4Runner flat. I would install a Drive Shaft Coupling system and a heavy-duty frame-mounted hitch.

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #14 – April 20, 2017, 04:42:55 pm

Quote from: NADAZE! - April 20, 2017, 04:13:45 pm

You can't tow a 4Runner flat. I would install a Drive Shaft Coupling system and a heavy-duty frame-mounted hitch.

How much does it weight, fueled up and with gear you would normally travel with?
Include all the stuff that will eventually get stored there.
If you are going to use it off road, add in the tools, repair parts, recovery and survival gear that should be carried.
With the added weight of the base plate, tow bar, tow brake and driveshaft coupler(s), it will probably weight north of 5000-lbs, unless it's a 2WD model or a pre 2002 model.
If it is a later model 2WD, it's a heavy toad with limited off road capability.
If it is a 4WD, it will be interesting to see how reliable driveshaft couplers will be. Never seen anyone do this on a 4X4.
Never seen anyone flat tow a 4Runner, either. If it has locking front hubs, only one coupler is needed.
I don't know much about Toyota axles, wonder if locking front and rear hubs are available?

Larry

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #15 – April 20, 2017, 07:53:27 pm

I have a '04 26.5 and tow an Element. I had my hitch beefed up before I started towing, and have not had any evidence of twisting or anything else. This was done at a quality hitch shop, with the goal in mind of pulling 5K.

Photos attached

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #16 – April 20, 2017, 08:18:21 pm

I'm midway down a path to a similar goal. I'm extending the actual frame, using techniques spelled out in the Ford upfitter's manual, for a factory type-approved standard dimension frame extending all the way to the bumper. Keeping the LD extension too, and tying them together. Goal is to install a standard E350 hitch that can be used up to the chassis' capacity. No pics yet as it's a work in progress, but here's the pdf of the manual.

Chip

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #17 – April 21, 2017, 09:16:19 pm

You can find trucks towing trains on Youtube. That does not mean they were designed to do it.
The hitch is not the limiting factor. It's the design limits of the E450.
I know all those terms like GCWR are confusing, but those are the rules Ford set, not LD.
I would walk away from buying any E450 with a beefed up hitch if I did not exactly how much weight had been towed.
If anyone tries to pull 7,500 up the Eisenhower Pass, let me know how that works out for you.

All this was covered in loving detail on The Companion last year.

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #18 – April 22, 2017, 12:29:34 pm

Found this interesting short video that shows the effect of how loading a trailer improperly, or towing too much weight, can affect towing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vHf1h8xc0g

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #19 – April 22, 2017, 01:45:46 pm

Back in the day when we towed our 27' Prowler TT, we had Load Leveler's and a Sway Bar to maintain stability.

Pulling with a Ford F-150 the rig towed so smoothly I was hard pressed to even tell it was back there. But believe me, I was constantly keeping my eyes on it.

I enjoyed the Prowler a lot, but I wouldn't trade our LD for anything. I always seem to save the best for last.

Kent

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #20 – April 22, 2017, 01:52:46 pm

Since we're on the subject, I really enjoyed the aerodynamics of our 24' Hi-Lo trailer. It had sway control but wasn't really needed under most conditions.

This shot was taken on the way to Great Basin NP. It fit nicely behind the Tahoe!

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #21 – April 24, 2017, 07:43:44 pm

Quote from: Don Malpas - April 21, 2017, 09:16:19 pm

You can find trucks towing trains on Youtube. That does not mean they were designed to do it.
The hitch is not the limiting factor. It's the design limits of the E450.
I know all those terms like GCWR are confusing, but those are the rules Ford set, not LD.
I would walk away from buying any E450 with a beefed up hitch if I did not exactly how much weight had been towed.
If anyone tries to pull 7,500 up the Eisenhower Pass, let me know how that works out for you.

All this was covered in loving detail on The Companion last year.

I appreciate your position on towing. But, how would you know how much weight any used vehicle may have towed in it's earlier life? You don't. Perhaps in never towed anything. That said, I trust you only buy new then.

I fully realize the hitch is not the only limiting factor. The E450 w/V10 has a published total vehicle and towing capacity of 22K. Clearly, that is insane. I merely looked at the way the frame was extended for the LD to fit on the chassis and wanted a bit more steel between the Ford factory end of the chassis and the hitch. (Actually, I don't know where the extra section was added, perhaps Ford does it. Doesn't matter, I just wanted more meat on that bone.) Personally, I prefer running at no more than 80% of max. Not this rig, and not any other surface vehicle. The max was defined based upon a new vehicle. By running at 100%, you can probably get by with it, but it will wear a lot faster and at some point will not be able to safely do 100%. For me, all though the spec states I can tow 4000 lbs, I was looking for that being my 80% number.
BTW - the Element weighs in at around 3600lb empty, throw a tank of fuel, 2/3s the weight of the hitch and brake systems, plus whatever else might end up in there, and it is sneaking up on $4K.

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #22 – April 27, 2017, 01:29:23 pm

A word of warning to those planning on towing weights 4000-lbs or greater.
The 4R100 transmission, in my 2003 LD, needed to be rebuilt recently due to the stress of pulling a 4000-lb Jeep for 99,000 miles.
It was making some strange noises and had develop a whine.
On disassembly, the internal parts show a great deal of wear and slippage, the result of climbing hundreds of steep grades, over the last 14 years.
One of the thrust bearings was disintegrating, grinding itself to bits.

The E450 is a durable unit but it will wear out when subjected to long-term, heavy loads.
The old transmission had been maintained to greater degree than the Factory recommendations, with full flushes and filter changes every 30,000 miles, plus an extra large oil cooler had been installed . It had not be abused.

Assuming the new trans was put together correctly, it should never be a problem again, it has been remanufactured using enhanced parts, by a very experienced and respected mechanic, John Wood.
We got the Tow Master H/D Transmission, which will handle much more power than the V10 produces. The transmission is designed to be strong enough to use with the powerful 7.3 Turbo Diesel engine, used in Ford pickups..
John Wood Automotive - Services
It was very interesting to see the old transmission disassembled and rebuilt, while having an expert explain what I was looking at.

I also learned that the transmission-mounted parking brake is fully rebuildable and can be done for less than $200.
Expect to see a posting soon where I disassemble and rebuild the one in our 2003 LD.
The brake has been accidentally left on before and the brake linings need replacement.
The bearings and seals will be replaced at the same time.

Larry

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #23 – April 27, 2017, 03:09:32 pm

Wow- So what you're saying is a LD E-450 sucks as far as towing is concerned.
Any vehicle under 4,000 lbs sure as hell limits ones selections especially where off road is concerned.
Your transmission upgrade seems like a logical solution but not everyone has $6-$7K to spend on transmission.

I just purchased a 2002 31 rear queen with 33,000 miles. I was planning on towing a Toyota 4runner but that seems out of the question. So I'm considering a Jeep Wrangler. I'm a full-time RVer. I would not be constantly on the road rather pulling from point A to be and staying put for 3 or 4 months then on to the next location.

I think I'll give Todd at the mothership a call to discuss towing. I sure as hell don't want any issues once I decide to take off.

Mark

Re: Towing a 5000 lb horse trailer (split from Re: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforceme

Reply #24 – April 27, 2017, 08:23:46 pm

Quote from: NADAZE! - April 27, 2017, 03:09:32 pm

Wow- So what you're saying is a LD E-450 sucks as far as towing is concerned.
Any vehicle under 4,000 lbs sure as hell limits ones selections especially where off road is concerned.
Your transmission upgrade seems like a logical solution but not everyone has $6-$7K to spend on transmission.
I just purchased a 2002 31 rear queen with 33,000 miles. I was planning on towing a Toyota 4runner but that seems out of the question. So I'm considering a Jeep Wrangler. I'm a full-time RVer. I would not be constantly on the road rather pulling from point A to be and staying put for 3 or 4 months then on to the next location.

No, I didn't say that at all.
Our LD has a 100,000 miles on it. It has pulled the Jeep for most of those miles, the transmission wore out.
I know others that have run 140,000 or more, pulling Jeeps, with the original transmissions.
Each transmission wears differently.
My point has been to be cautious about loading a LD close to its GCWR, realizing it does strain the driveline and will wear faster than a LD that has not towed. This advice should especially be heeded by those without the funds to replace a transmission or other major parts.
$5000 is a ton of cash but what's the choice? We plan on keeping the rig for several more years, the rest of it is good shape and it's set up the way we like it. On the positive side, our LD has a transmission that will not wear out, while we own it.
In your situation, you have been warned about the weight. Most full timers, in a 31" model, are going to be at or over the GVW all the time.
Adding a 5000+lbs 4Runner is pushing the weight to far, for dependable service IMO.

There are also variations of the 4R100, the E450s gets is a lighter duty version, the same as used in Ford Excursions and Expeditions. The transmission used in the F53 Class A and Power Stroke Diesels, found in Ford pickups, have bigger clutch packs and other upgrades.
I do suggest installing the largest transmission cooler available.
Here are photos of the same cooler John Wood installs.
Larger transmission cooler E450 | Flickr
I had already installed the same cooler three years ago, it is a beast and barely fits.

Yes, a 4000-lbs limit on towing weight does limit your selection, modern cars are bigger and heavier, a result of increased crash requirements.
Usable off road vehicles are extremely limited. For moderate back road touring, many find Subarus adequate.
If you are going to switch to a Jeep Wrangler, get a TJ, built from 1997-2006. They are much lighter than the newer models.
Parts and accessories are widely available.

Larry

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