Lithium battery article September 22, 2016, 06:35:52 pm This article on lithium batteries may be of interest to some. Understanding Lithium Batteries for Your Solar Power Solutions - RV Life 3 Likes
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #1 – September 22, 2016, 09:28:18 pm Good reading, thanks Joan. By the time I am ready to tackle solar and an electric system upgrade, lithium will be more mainstream. AM Solar has built a lot of trust and has a lot of reach, so we will probablFreedom is never having to plug in. 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #2 – September 23, 2016, 08:52:14 am If I were buying a new LD, that would be an attractive route, but at $2,800 that's steep for a nine year old rig.It would be really great when it's overcast for days to be able to deep discharge without worry.
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #3 – September 24, 2016, 11:56:08 am I would love to use lithium and perhaps I will at some point. We met a couple in a new LD this past winter at the Quartzsite get together. If I recall they had been to AM Solar and had 400 amp hours of lithium batts installed with a complete system. The only thing he mentioned that I found a concern was this. He worried that the alternator might be overcharging the batts and called AM Solar. Again, if I recall, there answer seemed to be that if there hadn't been any damage in the drive back it should be OK. I would hope that was an issue that they had already anticipated and answered.Since the original owners of AM Solar are no longer involved I have some concern with possible changes in the company and their quality or service.Jim
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #4 – September 24, 2016, 01:17:48 pm Hi Jim. That was us in Quartzsite, and it was actually our project engineer guy who expressed concern about overworking our alternator on long drives. It didn't make sense to me, but I disconnected the lead from the alternator to the house batteries the next day just to be safe. I might set up a switch and relay someday, but so far (one year this month) we've never needed the extra alternator boost. Electrical usage for a typical off-grid evening starts with cooking dinner in the microwave or InstaPot followed by a movie or two. The next morning, our battery is usually at about 88% and I don't think we've ever seen it much below 80%. Looking back, the 300 amp battery is almost overkill for us, 200 would have probably been fine. The alternator thing seems bizarre to me as well, but all the workmanship was definitely worthy of their reputation and everything works as expected. Steve
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #5 – September 24, 2016, 01:26:52 pm Steve,Just curious. How many panels do you have? I currently have two 100's on the rig installed when we had the rig built. Lithium batteries are an attractive idea if I can simply swap the AGM's in a few years when they age out. Hopefully the lithium costs will have dropped enough to make the purchase more attractive. Or I can just add more cash to my fund. I like the idea of "more power". Tim The Tool Man has me hooked.Kent 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #6 – September 24, 2016, 01:36:26 pm Kent, Four times SF160 Solar Panel for 640 total. There's easily room for another if we sacrifice the yet-to-be-used batwing antenna, but with 800W I'd have figure out how to sell power back to Edison.Oddly enough, AM has increased the price of their Lithium batteries twice since our purchase. I was hoping to see exactly the opposite because these smaller and lighter batteries really make sense in our rigs lacking room for more than two lead type batteries.Steve
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #7 – September 24, 2016, 01:55:46 pm Quote from: Steve TK - September 24, 2016, 01:36:26 pm"...Four times SF160 Solar Panel for 640 total. There's easily room for another if we sacrifice the yet-to-be-used batwing antenna, but with 800W I'd have figure out how to sell power back to Edison..."Woot! That's some serious power. Looks like you and Andy have the market cornered on LD Solar. Could be a while before I get that far. So then I will need to do my homework to see if Litium is a good alternative with my current (and foreseeable future) Solar output. You guys are seriously rockin' it.Thanks,Kent
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #8 – September 24, 2016, 06:38:25 pm A very good article on the real life experience of living with Lithium for five plus years....Technomadia -Lithium Ion batteries for RV House Systems
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #9 – September 24, 2016, 08:12:58 pm Technomadia will be posting a 5-year update "soon". I'm also following the Wheeling It blog to see how their recent install works out in the coming year: Solar Power – Wheeling It
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #10 – March 19, 2017, 01:21:26 pm Quote from: Steve TK - September 24, 2016, 01:17:48 pm<snip> The next morning, our battery is usually at about 88% and I don't think we've ever seen it much below 80%. Looking back, the 300 amp battery is almost overkill for us, 200 would have probably been fine. The alternator thing seems bizarre to me as well, but all the workmanship was definitely worthy of their reputation and everything works as expected. SteveHi Steve,Perhaps I should start a new thread rather than revive this old one, but I may be in the market for new batteries, and am intrigued about lithium. We had AM Solar install our system almost 9 years ago. Had you ever used AGM batteries, and if so, can you compare your experience?Interesting you don't think you need that much capacity given the amount of solar you have. I would guess you never really need another energy source than solar to recharge your batteries.Did you ever do any sort of write up of your system or experience? I'm just looking for more first-hand info and help understanding the trade-offs.Appreciate any feedback or PM if preferred.S-
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #11 – March 19, 2017, 05:20:02 pm Quote from: Steve and Carol Crisp - March 19, 2017, 01:21:26 pmPerhaps I should start a new thread rather than revive this old one, but I may be in the market for new batteries, and am intrigued about lithium. Perhaps you should take look at AM Solar's lithium page before ordering a set of batteries.Lithium Battery BanksThe cost is staggering compared to T-105s or AGMs and offer few advantages in return for the high price tag. It's what having cutting edge technology cost.IMO, the ability to have a smaller, lighter battery is the main advantage of lithium. The lack of long-term experience, in RV usage, is a big down side for me. I know of too many lead-acid and AGM batteries being trashed by a bad solar controller or converter. If the same happens to a lithium battery, the replacement cost is multiplied many times...ouch! If considering switching to lithium, make sure to add in the cost of installation (20-30 hour @ $120 per hour). That's a total of $5000-6000 for a 160-amp hour battery system.With lithium batteries being extremely voltage sensitive and dependent on precise regulation, an electronic failure is a very real potential problem. Lithium batteries have a lot of built-in electronics devices to go bad.No one know how long they will last in normal RV usage. For the cost, they should last the life of the MH or a minimum of 10-15 years. AM Solar provides a 3 year warranty...hmmm, not too confident are they?If a more powerful battery pack is needed, most LDs have the space and extra weight capacity for two more batteries.I see lithium being adopted earlier by lightweight Sprinter-type RVs, which suffer from limited CCC.On the plus side, AM Solar's lithium kits are now made made by Victron, a known company in the Marine world.Still, only a 3 year warranty.In a few more years, when lithium batteries come down to a reasonable cost and have a proven track record, I'm in, until then, I prefer to stick to a well proven, relatively inexpensive set of batteries.It's very hard to beat the long-term economy and dependability of T-105s.Larry. 4 Likes
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #12 – March 19, 2017, 06:43:33 pm Larry,Thanks -- that's the kind of input I was looking for. I have not yet checked out the prices, but it sounds like that will be out of my league.We went with 4 AGMs last time, and two are inside under the fridge, so I think our only options are replace the AGMs or consider the switch to Lithium. I guess I need to wait for Elon Musk's demand to bring down the price, though perhaps he is cornering the market on the materials.Given that AM Solar did our install before, I wonder if it would be less labor this time to install Lithiums, or if that requires lots of other equipment changes too.Of course, we will talk with them at some point to get their take and input, but I'm just looking for inputs like yours to help me be prepared and informed.Thanks much, and if anyone else wants to weigh in on AGMs vs Lithium, I'm all ears.S-
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #13 – March 19, 2017, 07:37:57 pm Quote from: Steve and Carol Crisp - March 19, 2017, 06:43:33 pm I guess I need to wait for Elon Musk's demand to bring down the price, though perhaps he is cornering the market on the materials.If Elon Musk ever gets involved in the RV industry, you can be assured that the entire RV will be electric, not just the coach portion. Meanwhile, work on the Gigafactory continues:Tesla releases new up-close drone footage of Gigafactory 1 in Nevada | Electrek
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #14 – March 19, 2017, 08:58:53 pm I know that to many on this forum, the link below may sound counter-intuitive, but if you bother to click on it, you will find one of the best explanations out there about the differences in performance, cost, and longevity between Lifeline AGM and Relion Lithium batteries. I say counter-intuitive, because the narrators are discussing these differences from a boating perspective. They are living and sailing the world on a sailboat. BUT, for many years prior to that they were full-time RVers. It is fair to say they are well studied in their presentations. Their web site is called "Gone with the Wynns", and it has much valuable RV info on that site. If you click on the link, be sure to watch the video as well as read their page. The y break it down really well.Sailboat Tech – Lithium Batteries & Why We Chose Them
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #15 – March 20, 2017, 11:11:36 am I'm with Larry on this one. The primary reason that lithium batteries are attractive to me is their light weight. I use them on one of my motorcycles where weight is always an issue. The huge down-side is the cost, at present.My Lazy Daze doesn't have the sensitivity to the relatively small difference in weight that the lithium batteries provide, but my wallet is very sensitive to the difference in cost. Until they get cheaper and more mainstream, AGM batteries are a great way to meet my electrical storage needs.HD 1 Likes
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #16 – March 24, 2017, 09:12:11 am Quote from: Larry Wade - March 19, 2017, 05:20:02 pmIt's very hard to beat the long-term economy and dependability of T-105s.Larry.Larry, I'm curious what your current set up is for batteries. Are you only using two Trojans in the outside battery compartment? Or have you added extra batteries, and if so where. I recall you custom-built a rack under your rig, but thought that might have been on a previous rig. So I'm checking to see how you handle increased capacity now? Any practical way to created a sealed, vented space under a mid-bath fridge for two extra batteries? The cost of Trojans vs AGMs is certainly attractive.Thanks,S-
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #17 – March 24, 2017, 12:53:23 pm Quote from: Steve and Carol Crisp - March 24, 2017, 09:12:11 amLarry, I'm curious what your current set up is for batteries. So I'm checking to see how you handle increased capacity now? Any practical way to created a sealed, vented space under a mid-bath fridge for two extra batteries? Our LD has an under frame cradle that holds four T-105 batteries..Battery tray- new | FlickrWhen new, the batteries have a 440-amp/hour capacity.It is wired with 2-gauge welding cable, which lead to a marine battery switch. The battery switch allows turning the chassis battery on and off plus the ability to jump the starting battery, in case it goes dead.Many MBs have two extra batteries, mounted under the refrigerator. It would take a lot of intricate construction to seal the wide open compartment, for use with lead-acid batteries, not a easy or suggested project. It's a piece of cake using AGMs and is the way I would go if desiring more batteries.Removing the two batteries, from the Factory battery compartment, allowed adding an 2.8-gallon auxiliary propane tank, bringing the total capacity to 9.6 gallons.Larry
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #18 – March 24, 2017, 01:56:22 pm Nice, Larry! Can a pair of Trojan's (outside) be mixed with a pair of AGM's (inside) or is that a no-no?
Re: Lithium battery article Reply #19 – March 24, 2017, 04:54:26 pm Quote from: HiLola - March 24, 2017, 01:56:22 pmCan a pair of Trojan's (outside) be mixed with a pair of AGM's (inside) or is that a no-no?No mixing is allowed of the two battery types.Batteries should all be of the same age too.On older rigs, be sure there is adequate CCC for the batteries and that the side to side weight balance is OK, with adding more batteries.Larry 1 Likes
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