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Topic: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS (Read 482 times) previous topic - next topic
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Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Hi all,

I'm JD and my wife and I have narrowed down our two year search for the perfect RV for our young family (boy 4, girl 2) to either a 2017 LD MB (loaded) or a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS. (we've been dissuaded by the LD factory from a 31IB.)

Having sat in both products, the quality champ is LD, hands down:  The aluminum skin, the full body paint, the solid construction of the box, the rear "lounge", the unending windows -- I completely understand why they attract (and keep) their following, it's a well-made product with strong, close factory support (I'm 50 minutes from Montclair.) 

The Greyhawk, built on the same E-450 Ford chassis (though stretched) GVWR & GCWR are the same (14.5k/22k), has slides, dedicated bunks for the kids, cameras & power mirrors standard, & bigger waste tanks, bigger fridge.  The fit & finish are just okay.

Here's the big difference:  Out the door, LD MB will be $110k while the greyhawk will be around $80k. (via online retailer, pick up in Des Moines so add, say $2k in travel/time costs.)

Both new coaches with similar floorplans/options.  Yes, I could drop about $4k from the LD's options (leather seats, outdoor shower, power step, etc) but I felt with the options it was still an apples to apples comparison.

Talking it out, my wife and I are at this place:  The Lazy Daze eschews the bells & whistles and their fans love them for it.  Less stuff means less stuff to break -- we get that -- but $30k is a lot of money for what is essentially a difference in the boxes (E-450 chassises being equal though as I said, the Jayco is stretched.)  Does a young family need a coach aimed at (ostensibly) the needs of say a retired couple?  Am I dining at Spagos when I should be at Chuck E. Cheese's?  Is the LD worth $30k more?  Do I have an apples-to-apples comparison (roughly since obviously every coach is unique.)  Will I make up $30k on re-sale down the line?  In five years?  Ten years?  Ever?

As a person who would rather wait, save up and buy the best, this has been a real tough decision and I welcome any comments and insight.

-- JD

p.s. loving the low-pressure sales atmosphere at LD factory BTW.  We really got to talk out/go over/imagine all of our scenarios without some myna bird in a blue izod chirping in our ears the whole time.

2017 Mid Bath
-- Tireman valve extenders;
-- Progressive Industries 30a EMS protector;
-- Hellwig front and rear anti-sway bars;
-- Dual canister water filter.
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #1 –
Quote from: Table 58  - 
Hi all,

I'm JD and my wife and I have narrowed down our two year search for the perfect RV for our young family (boy 4, girl 2) to either a 2017 LD MB (loaded) or a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS. (we've been dissuaded by the LD factory from a 31IB.)

Having sat in both products, the quality champ is LD, hands down:  The aluminum skin, the full body paint, the solid construction of the box, the rear "lounge", the unending windows -- I completely understand why they attract (and keep) their following, it's a well-made product with strong, close factory support (I'm 50 minutes from Montclair.) 

The Greyhawk, built on the same E-450 Ford chassis (though stretched) GVWR & GCWR are the same (14.5k/22k), has slides, dedicated bunks for the kids, cameras & power mirrors standard, & bigger waste tanks, bigger fridge.  The fit & finish are just okay.

Here's the big difference:  Out the door, LD MB will be $110k while the greyhawk will be around $80k. (via online retailer, pick up in Des Moines so add, say $2k in travel/time costs.)

Both new coaches with similar floorplans/options.  Yes, I could drop about $4k from the LD's options (leather seats, outdoor shower, power step, etc) but I felt with the options it was still an apples to apples comparison.

Talking it out, my wife and I are at this place:  The Lazy Daze eschews the bells & whistles and their fans love them for it.  Less stuff means less stuff to break -- we get that -- but $30k is a lot of money for what is essentially a difference in the boxes (E-450 chassises being equal though as I said, the Jayco is stretched.)  Does a young family need a coach aimed at (ostensibly) the needs of say a retired couple?  Am I dining at Spagos when I should be at Chuck E. Cheese's?  Is the LD worth $30k more?  Do I have an apples-to-apples comparison (roughly since obviously every coach is unique.)  Will I make up $30k on re-sale down the line?  In five years?  Ten years?  Ever?

As a person who would rather wait, save up and buy the best, this has been a real tough decision and I welcome any comments and insight.

-- JD

p.s. loving the low-pressure sales atmosphere at LD factory BTW.  We really got to talk out/go over/imagine all of our scenarios without some myna bird in a blue izod chirping in our ears the whole time.
Hi, JD. You've obviously done your homework. I see the Greyhawk stickers at around 117k without options, so at 80k you are getting a good markdown. If I were in your situation, I think I would go with the Greyhawk. You'll have more space for your kids (bunks & slides) and probably your pets (if you have them). Travel with the Greyhawk, enjoy the extra space, find out what you like and don't like, and then when the kids are so busy in the summer you can't travel anymore, sell the GH, save your pennies and then buy a Lazy Daze, the one that will last you for a long, long time. For the extra 30k, you can do a lot of exploring with the kids, and they will have memories many kids don't ever have.
Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
 
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #2 –
Great response Chris. But, I am wondering what the resale price will be down the road. Will the Jayhawk hold its value?  I do not know the answer to that question but that would be something  I would consider.
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #3 –
"As a person who would rather wait, save up and buy the best, this has been a real tough decision and I welcome any comments and insight."

The more I read about others' problems with other brands of rigs, I would think long and hard about purchasing anything of lesser quality than a Lazy Daze.

The first thing that comes to mind is that if you were successfully dissuaded from purchasing a 31-foot Lazy Daze, why would those reasons not apply equally to a Greyhawk?  With even more "things" loaded onto the Greyhawk, how would this not be an even worse choice, payload wise, than a 31-foot Lazy Daze?  That would be my biggest concern.

The next thing that comes to mind is that if $80,000. is the amount of money that will change hands . . . how many hands are involved in the transaction?  Each one along the way must get a piece of the pie.  So you might want to consider how much of the purchase price could have been allocated to the quality of the rig itself.

I don't have a clue about the percentage of profit for any given unit, but if the Greyhawk can be discounted by $37,000. in the blink of an eye, there must be more profit involved for everyone concerned in the remaining $80K.  In effect, they are telling you that one-third of the stated purchase price is bogus and can be dispensed with in a flash.

Your children are still very young.  Time may be on your side.  It might be fiscally prudent for you rent a motorhome of the size you are contemplating on several occasions to see how your family fits into it, how it handles on the road, the quality in use, and to examine storage aspects, as well as avoiding depreciation, if a current actual purchase turns out to be a bit off the mark.  As your children gain in age - say in two to three years - you will have more experience under your belt, and perhaps an increase in the coffer for your desired purchase.

Renting other brands and being in them for a week or so at a time can tell a great deal.  Yes, personal experience.

As a quick reference, we rented a 30-foot Winnebago Class A that had 9,000 miles on it.  The quality of furniture was so poor that the dinette was unusable, having basically crumbled apart.  We are two normal-sized adults (no children or pets involved), so there was no undue strain.  The transmission went out, and we spent two of our precious vacation days having it repaired.

If you are not attuned to the different forums on the net, it would probably be a good move to at least search out others' opinions of the brand you are contemplating.  I have read that many brands that were marginal in the past have gone downhill considerably; ones that were better respected, unfortunately, have done likewise, but perhaps not in as steep a decline.  I have no personal experience with any brand except our two Lazy Daze units, apart from a high-end Newmar product that we fulltimed in for eight years. 

It's been over 50 years since I have had to deal with children the age of yours, so don't have a clue . . . but I might consider a good quality screen room-type tent thingy to put up at a campsite to accommodate spread-out room for the children during the daytime hours, and snuggle them into a Lazy Daze at night for sleep.

Call me crochety, but I don't think I would have the patience to put up with the poor quality and interminable trips to the dealer or factory to *possibly* fix all of the things that seem to go wrong with so many other brands.  I've read horror story after horror story of such. 

My two Lazy Daze units have caused me almost no grief over the 17 combined years that I owned them - still own one of them.  The biggest problem with our 1985 unit was the carburetor, and that is not a Lazy Daze facet.  Our current 2005 RB is almost entirely problem free, particularly in the Lazy Daze aspect.  I can't think of a single thing, in fact, that has to do with the coach itself.

Quality is king in my book.

Virtual hugs,

Judie  <-- Sierra Vista, Arizona
Adventures of Dorrie Anne | Photographing the West

Today:    Lamb Chops
******************************
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #4 –
  I have to agree with Judie concerns about weight issues.  With the slides and extra length the 31 foot Jayco may be close to the max weight.  That will really limit your ability to bring stuff on your trips.  I am not so much opposed to the idea of another brand of RV.  With four people there is just a lot more need for bringing stuff; clothing, toys, food and the like.  The struggle is finding balance while staying in the weight limit.  
Currently: 2008 36' Tiffin Open Road
Previously: 2007 Mid Bath
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #5 –
"As a person who would rather wait, save up and buy the best, this has been a real tough decision and I welcome any comments and insight."
---
I understand that the choice between an LD and a SOB can be a difficult decision for many people, so just offering a few thoughts (and a few "dittoes" to others' comments).

1. All RVs depreciate; some drop "value" quickly , and others maintain it for a much longer time. There are dozens of variables to be considered in the depreciation process, but, in general, the higher the initial build quality of the rig and the diligence used in maintaining it, the greater the value retention.

2. I have not seen this particular rig, so I can't say what its build quality is, but I would be concerned primarily about two issues:

a)  Jayco is now owned by Thor; there are many, many reports of marginal > poor build quality with products from this company. If the "fit and finish are just OK", there may be (and very likely are) additional "warts" in design, engineering, materials, and build quality that will surface. Will this manufacturer, and the selling dealer, stand behind this rig and deal in a satisfactory and timely manner with any and all punch list issues?

b) A 31' with slides on an E-450 chassis may well have a very limited CCC; manufacturers' weight numbers can be the stuff of unicorns and rainbows. The OP might want to get a real-life four corner weight on this rig, factoring in the understanding that the "dry" figure is just the beginning, before proceeding.

Yes, the Jayco is less expensive initially than a Lazy Daze, and it can be had right now instead of waiting for 10-12 months for delivery of an LD.  IMO, if "immediacy", lower initial price, and the Jayco's features trump the plus points of an LD, the choice is clear.

Good luck with your decision; I hope that whatever you decide works out for your family.

As always, YMMV.

Joan

2003 TK has a new home
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #6 –
One thing to check on: what is the Jayco's actual weight when comparably equipped? The rig's posted OCCC is the weight when the coach leaves the factory. But I know that many RV manufacturers play a little game called "standard options," in which the factory omits heavy items such as air conditioners and generators that they know all buyers want, but that would subtract hundreds of pounds from the OCCC (cargo capacity). Dealers then install these items as standard procedure, but the added curb weight and diminished OCCC are not reflected in the posted weights.

Lazy Daze is different. Generator and air conditioner are standard items installed at the factory; there are no dealer add-ons, because there are no dealers. Thus the posted OCCC numbers are honest, not inflated.

I don't know how Jayco handles this, but it would be a good idea to verify exactly what items are installed at the factory (and thus reflected in the posted weights), and what is installed by the dealer (and hence "snuck in"). That's the only way to do an apples-to-apples comparison with Lazy Daze as far as payload is concerned.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #7 –
We live in the land of RVs - they are parked everywhere: side yards, driveways, driveway extensions, etc. The one thing almost every single RV buyer overlooks is weathering. I cannot tell you how many fairly new RVs (under 2 years old) are already showing the effects of sun damage and premature aging.

The reason is simple: while LD is one of the few manufacturers (perhaps RoadTrek Sprinters and a few others) that paints their rigs (in high quality two-part poly), every other company uses huge, stick-on graphics to achieve coverage. Besides crappy assembly - which practically guarantees the rig coming apart at the seams, regardless of maintenance - the use of graphic stickers has got to be the single most critical factor in premature aging. I mean, it really is kind of astounding; the proud owner brings home the rig, uses it now & then, and then parks it for awhile. Inevitably, it begins to lose its initial luster, then the sun damage begins. Within a fairly short amount of time, the decals are faded, and the rig looks sort of like a piece-of-sh!t.

The key other factor related to build quality is the actual fact of being inside your rig. The crappy fiberglass interiors, poor finish details, etc will begin to immediately wear on you. That is, it won't be 'fun' to hang out in the RV; rather, it will begin to start to feel like a moldy, sterile storage locker. With an LD, it's so cozy and comfortable, it's actually really nice to hang out. We entertain using our little 22' fairly often - people love to hang out inside. We've got soft lighting, a great sound system, and all the furnishings are in perfect condition.

$30k is a lot of money, but buying an RV is a depreciating black hole regardless of brand. That is, if you're really committed to throwing away $100 grand, then you might as well enjoy yourself and possibly reduce some of the depreciation effects. Getting a non-LD is taking a path towards complete submission of accepting that you have a piece of junk, one which you would probably will be lucky to get pennies back after you've mentally written off the entire misadventure.

PS What Andy, Joan and others are pointing out with regard to CCC is that the RV industry is basically a rip-off business. They will literally cheat, lie, misstate and engage in a whole host of shady activities just to get a sale. The name of the game is to get a signed contract - watch Glengarry Glen Rose for a primer. That being said, there are a handful of companies that do take a different approach: LD, RT, BF and some others. The key to identifying an honest mfg is that they **won't do deals**. If you're engaging with a wheeler-dealer who is discounting, throwing in "extras", etc, you should be aware of who/what you're dealing with. The only way for a con artist to be successful is for their marks to have a "little bit of larceny in their hearts". That is, practically everyone is susceptible to the conceit of "getting a good deal". Problem is, it's a mirage - there aren't any "good deals". RVs cost what they cost - if there's a deal being offered, then you should be aware that you're the mark.
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #8 –
Quote from: Marciebp  - 
Great response Chris. But, I am wondering what the resale price will be down the road. Will the Jayhawk hold its value?  I do not know the answer to that question but that would be something  I would consider.
Yes, I wondered about resale, too. I realize it's nearly heresy for an LD owner not to recommend an LD; however, I thought playing devil's advocate might offer some insight. LDs depreciate, also. It's just hard to make comparisons.

Chris (dodging the devil's pitchfork) 😈
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #9 –
Quote from: Table 58  - 

Here's the big difference:  Out the door, LD MB will be $110k while the greyhawk will be around $80k. (via online retailer, pick up in Des Moines so add, say $2k in travel/time costs.)

 Is the LD worth $30k more?  Do I have an apples-to-apples comparison (roughly since obviously every coach is unique.)  Will I make up $30k on re-sale down the line?  In five years?  Ten years?  Ever?

How about the best of both worlds and buy a really nice, almost new LD for $80K? Look at all the dinaro you'll save on depreciation!

PS: Welcome to the forum!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #10 –
Table 58 (JD).  I know this was your first post in this Forum.  I would like for you to know that some of the Forum's most knowledgeable Lazy Daze Owners have posted information and guidance for your consideration.  In fact, several are acknowledged experts on LD's and RVs in general.  So please know that the guidance is not "half-baked" as you continue your study of this matter.  And the best of luck.
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Table 58  - 
The Greyhawk, built on the same E-450 Ford chassis (though stretched) GVWR & GCWR are the same (14.5k/22k), has slides, dedicated bunks for the kids, cameras & power mirrors standard, & bigger waste tanks, bigger fridge.  The fit & finish are just okay.

If the Greyhawk dealer truly wants your business, insist he have YOUR coach weighed at least at each axle and send you the results; ... and, if you like the figure, insist that on pickup you will do the same before signing the dotted line. If the two measurements do not substantially agree, take a short RV-less vacation in Iowa and then fly home.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #12 –
You've done a ton of research on this, for which I commend you. With a young family, I'm not sure a brand new RV should be your first purchase. If you find that your family isn't as enthusiastic about the idea after trying it for awhile, you'll get more of your investment back when you sell it. If it turns out the whole family loves camping, you'll be in better shape to upgrade to a  Lazy Daze.

As others have pointed out, Jayco is now owned by Thor, which has a terrible reputation for build quality. While they claim that their acquisitions continue business as usual without interference, I guarantee that their management are under enormous pressure to make financial goals "or else". Before the acquisition, Jayco had a better-than-average reputation, and used coaches in good condition will still be a good value.

If you can find the floorplan you like, but a few years old, someone else has already taken the depreciation hit and got the warranty work done. It should still be in good enough shape mechanically and structurally (barring things like water damage) and you'll be less afraid of what happens when kids and pets do what they do.

This search on RV Trader will find lots of that particular Jayco model, both new and used.

For example, here's a 2012 model of your Jayco in Ohio, with only 20,000 miles with an asking price of $57,900. It even has new tires, and I see lots of upgrades in the photos. As long as it doesn't involve sending money to Nigeria, this could be worth a closer look. Assuming there's room for negotiation, this could end up costing half what that new Lazy Daze would run, and $25k or so less than your already discounted 2017 Jayco. That's a lot of money to put aside for a rainy day, and a decent saving on vehicle registration and insurance costs over a new rig too.

The only downside to buying used over new is financing -- depending how much you need to borrow it may be easier to finance a new rig than a used one unless you can access a line of credit or have the funds to pay mostly cash.

A sobering thought is that new RVs can come with "easy" financing terms of 10 to 20 years -- far longer than a low to medium priced new RV would be expected to last. Banks will only finance up to the "blue book" price for used, no matter what the seller thinks it's worth. FYI, NADA thinks average retail for that 2012 model before considering mileage and options is $57,500, so the seller is pricing it aggressively considering the condition and upgrades.

fu
2015TK
fu
2015TK
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #13 –
I have a 2007 MB which I love. If I travel in it myself with our two dogs it is the perfect size. When my husband travels with me as well it can get a little crowded, especially with a lab and a labradoodle taking up a lot of space. When we began camping with my two granddaughters they were preschoolers and with all their stuff and the dogs it got real crowded fast. Now they are older and bigger it can seem very crowded, especially if it is raining.  In frustration this summer, I even contemplated selling the LD  and getting another brand with a dedicated bunk room and slides (the grandaighters loved that idea! :) but of course I didn't. Why? Because the quality of the LD is so much better.

As for a Jayco, well all I can say is that the RV service center I use here is attached to a Jayco dealer and it has been a pain trying to get in for service this last year. Why? According to my service rep, their sales went up and now a majority of their time is spent fixing the stuff on the new rigs that were not done properly at the factory before they go off the lot and  then doing  lots of warranty work after that when the rigs are sold. Again, the quality of LD wins hands down.

Stephany Smith
2007 MB
2007 MB
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #14 –
Deep discounts do occur with some RV.  The company builds many more than can be sold.  A friend purchased a new, never owned, class A that was two year old from a dealership in Florida.  When they did the check out the sales person that was supposed to explain how every thing worked was busy fixing leaks.  The faucets were not correctly attached.  All the faucets -  shower, kitchen and bath sinks.  The slide did not work.  The dealership repaired everything and sent them on their way.  Two nights out the slide again broke.  There was a recall on the part buy my friends did not find that out until they went to a local dealership in VA.
Dealers will do what what they need to get a sale.  Once my friends were off the lot all the promised help went away.  This was their first RV.  Before you buy, fill all the tanks - black, grey and fresh - with fresh water to full.  Run all the slides several times.  Run the generator under load (turn on the AC and electric heaters and microwave for a few minutes).  Hook up to shore power to make sure every outlet works.  Learn how to use the propane heater.  While your doing the check out the hot water heater should be on and by the time the tanks are emptied (with hopeful no sines of leaking and not excess water pump noise) the hot water should be hot to the touch. 
It took almost a year to find and fix issues that should have been taken care of during the dealership preparation.  That dealer prep was either incorrectly accomplished or not done at all.    I can not remember the name of the Class A, but in defense of the manufacture they did help.  The issues all stem from a Florida dealership.  I can not remember the name of the dealership, if you were buying in Fl I would have called my friends to get the name. 

My friends now have a very nice Class A that they got for a good price.  It took a little time but they now enjoy the trips.  I compare that with the experience posted here by people who purchased new.  Very few issues ever show up and mostly they are easily taken care of.
Currently: 2008 36' Tiffin Open Road
Previously: 2007 Mid Bath
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #15 –
That's a tough one, there are more factors to consider too since the size of the rigs is different. What type of campgrounds do you like to visit, will the extra 6 feet limit your options? For us it does, this past week our 26mb fit comfortably in a lovely site that said 23' max. That size matters for driving it as well, this past trip I took the wheel 3 different days and me and the hubby agree I can't handle anything bigger at this point!

On the other hand those 2 kids will grow and the added space of the 31 would be useful. What type of camping are you planning, short jaunts or long trips? We just met a big family crammed in a 22' rental having fun, for a short time the small size matters less. But my husband said an extended trip with our dogs and daughter would require either a bigger rig or towing something for storage. That's cause one negative of the mid bath model is the storage is plentiful but height challenged. I have a collapsing chair I can't fit in the outside storage and we can't take our table top grill cause even it is too tall.

I think others have mentioned salient points, depreciation happens to all RVs and whether it matters as much in your calculations partly hinges on how long do you plan to keep the thing. If you might ditch it quickly you want little depreciation, keep it forever and eventually they're all worthless. The long wait for a Lazy Daze is a factor too, even if you decide to go used finding the right one may take as much time as waiting for a new one from the factory. If you're itching to hit the road you'll have to go for mass produced.
98 MB
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #16 –
When we had kids that age, we barely had two nickels to rub together. Yet, we bought a used VW Vanagon, and spent the next few years enjoying the "great outdoors."  To be honest, kids that age will not likely spend a whole lot of time inside the moho.  Sleeping, primarily. Even most meals will be outdoors -- despite the bugs and stuff -- because that's where kids like to eat.  When older, the tent thing will be attractive to them as well. 

These days, those kids are all grown and we now enjoy 5 grandkids. We bought a A-Frame pop-up trailer that we tow behind our 26 foot motor home whenever the whole family goes camping together (an experience that becomes increasingly more infrequent as the kids grow into their teens.)   We use the A-Frame as an auxiliary sleeping facility, and that is usually where kathy, the dog, and me hang out at night to get a relatively restful sleep.  During the day, however, everyone is off -- hiking, swimming, fishing, biking -- and really, the size of the motor home is a minor factor.

My in-laws have a Jayco motor home and gave had LOTS of trouble with it, mainly with the electrical system.  Fortunately my brother-in-law is a retired firefighter and, stereo-typically, is as handy as the day is long. He can build and fix anything, so he has saved a lot of money in repairs because he does his own work.

As far as resale goes, it will always be easier to resell the LD for a fair price. Jaycos, like most big manufacturer's products, are a "dime a dozen."

The rental thing is a good idea.  But don't get too wrapped up with what is inside.  Those kids won't be there. They'll be outside having a ball.
2017 RB
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #17 –
We started with various VW vans and when our boys came and got to be around 5 and 2 years we bought a used Winnebago Itasca 21ft.  We were mostly outside so we did not need a larger model except in inclemit weather or snow, then it was tight and got tighter as the boys grew.  We planned trips to places where we could be outside more in seasons with better weather and if we planned trips in winter we would ski or do winter activities that kept us outside.  Our Winnebago on a Chevy G30 served us well with few problems but I did do maintenance often before and after trips.  We had some issues here and there which had delayed us for a few hours a few times but we were fortunate never to need a tow.  I must say that when we bough at the time our 8 year old Winnebago, we never considered depreciation, we just planned to the heck out of till it died! 
and it's not Dead yet! 
I think the manufacturers back in the day, (let's say the 80s cause that's where ours is from) built those models better.  I have changed many things in our Winnebago and worked on many friends models and seen some junk but also mostly good stuff from that era.  The fit and trim in our Winnebago was acceptable when we got it but with age it's getting older and looser but I am still keeping the water out.  This early spring We got a 98 Lazy Daze 26.5 MB which we had first started looking for two years earlier.  We love it, the build is exceptional.  My back storage on the 26 MB under the couches was not deep enough to accommodate our chairs so I expanded it an extra 4" which brought the passanger side couch out an extra 4" into the room, you don't notice it, but what I learned was how they put it together and all of the screws they use at Lazy Daze.  I lengthened the storage under the couch on the other side, the drivers side to accommodate skis, I like long boards.  This required expanding a space under the shower and discovered how that area was assembled, they insulate under there, everywhere.  I have not seen that on other SOBs.  I have been through our 26 MB and I got to say it is really built!  Before in the Winnebago we drove to our campsites and hung outside mostly especially if we were three or more people, we felt that our last days camping with the boys were coming to an end.  Now travel in the Lazy Daze takes on a new meaning, it's fun to travel and to be inside.  Our boys now in their twenties, have joined us a few times and we are all planning some more trips where they don't care where we go as long as it is in the Lazy Daze.


1998 ~ MB  WanderDaze
previously a 1984 Winnebago itaska- The Road Warrior, before that several VW Buses and before that a 1965 Chrysler Convertible Newport or our 1969 Chrysler La Barron with an ice box and a couple sleeping bags
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #18 –
Hi Table and welcome.  I think two points emphasized by others need to be priorities for your consideration.  The weight factor is a big issue.  You noted the GVWR & GCWR which are the same on both rigs, but the most important weight rating is how much weight can you safely carry?  This is the OCCC, Occupant and Cargo Carrying Capacity.  This is the weight of everything you want/need to carry.  In general, the longer the rig, the heavier it is.  In general, the more options like slides, auto-leveling jacks, air conditioners, the heavier it is.  And remember, as your kids grow, they will weigh more.  When we were searching for our RV, we attended many RV shows, and we found that in some cases RVs would be over weight with just the four adult members of our family on board, no stuff.  This includes some entry level Class As.

Second, think about how you will use the RV the most.  Weekends at the lake, or a family cross country trek.  This could help with your floor plan decision.

Finally, in our MB, the four of us (2 daughters now adults) have traveled cross country a couple of times and in 2015 spent the summer driving to Alaska and back from West. PA.  We made it work easily for us, even with a couple of rainy days.

Best wishes for success in your search for your RV.
2011 MB
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #19 –
Quote from: Table 58  - 
Hi all,

I'm JD and my wife and I have narrowed down our two year search for the perfect RV for our young family (boy 4, girl 2) to either a 2017 LD MB (loaded) or a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS. (we've been dissuaded by the LD factory from a 31IB.)

Having sat in both products, the quality champ is LD, hands down:  The aluminum skin, the full body paint, the solid construction of the box, the rear "lounge", the unending windows -- I completely understand why they attract (and keep) their following, it's a well-made product with strong, close factory support (I'm 50 minutes from Montclair.) 

The Greyhawk, built on the same E-450 Ford chassis (though stretched) GVWR & GCWR are the same (14.5k/22k), has slides, dedicated bunks for the kids, cameras & power mirrors standard, & bigger waste tanks, bigger fridge.  The fit & finish are just okay.

Here's the big difference:  Out the door, LD MB will be $110k while the greyhawk will be around $80k. (via online retailer, pick up in Des Moines so add, say $2k in travel/time costs.)

Both new coaches with similar floorplans/options.  Yes, I could drop about $4k from the LD's options (leather seats, outdoor shower, power step, etc) but I felt with the options it was still an apples to apples comparison.

Talking it out, my wife and I are at this place:  The Lazy Daze eschews the bells & whistles and their fans love them for it.  Less stuff means less stuff to break -- we get that -- but $30k is a lot of money for what is essentially a difference in the boxes (E-450 chassises being equal though as I said, the Jayco is stretched.)  Does a young family need a coach aimed at (ostensibly) the needs of say a retired couple?  Am I dining at Spagos when I should be at Chuck E. Cheese's?  Is the LD worth $30k more?  Do I have an apples-to-apples comparison (roughly since obviously every coach is unique.)  Will I make up $30k on re-sale down the line?  In five years?  Ten years?  Ever?

As a person who would rather wait, save up and buy the best, this has been a real tough decision and I welcome any comments and insight.

-- JD

p.s. loving the low-pressure sales atmosphere at LD factory BTW.  We really got to talk out/go over/imagine all of our scenarios without some myna bird in a blue izod chirping in our ears the whole time.
So, JD, what's your take from these comments?

Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #20 –
Hi again,

Sorry for the late reply -- with the little ones sometimes my orbit back to the computer is a full day.

But, wow!  Thank you all so much for this great advice and insight.  The weight issues on the Greyhawk are something I overlooked and have sent off an email for the CCC numbers (conspicuously absent from the Jayco listing.) 

We're leaning towards pulling the trigger on the new MB (c'mon, Todd, call!) because although my family's young, I'm not!  And the thought of auditing motorhomes (and, like Joan, I too have read the many horror stories) isn't appealing to me in the least.  I'd rather take my lumps up front (high cost, depreciation, kinks to work out) and then when it's time to change, sell it.

I have to jump off but let me say again, thanks for the great replies and the tricks of the trade bon mots (particularly the one about how dealers leave off standard equipment to get their published weights down, yowza.)

JD
2017 Mid Bath
-- Tireman valve extenders;
-- Progressive Industries 30a EMS protector;
-- Hellwig front and rear anti-sway bars;
-- Dual canister water filter.
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #21 –
Quote from: Table 58  - 
But, wow!  Thank you all so much for this great advice and insight.  The weight issues on the Greyhawk are something I overlooked and have sent off an email for the CCC numbers (conspicuously absent from the Jayco listing.) 


JD - I did a quick Google search and came across one dealer listing (with what I recall from having seen other Jayco stickers) as being UVW (full fuel, full propane, no water, passengers or cargo).  Jayco typically affixes a yellow UVW sticker in their motorhomes.

13191 lbs.

With a GVWR of 14500, that leaves 1309 lbs for water, waste, cargo, and people

I would doubt most dealers have actual corner weights, but Jayco generally affixes a yellow weight sticker in their motorhomes.

The 2017 MB UVW is shown as 11664.  1527 lbs more capacity than the Greyhawk.

Michelle
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #22 –
Quote from: Michelle C  - 
JD - I did a quick Google search and came across one dealer listing (with what I recall from having seen other Jayco stickers) as being UVW (full fuel, full propane, no water, passengers or cargo).  Jayco typically affixes a yellow UVW sticker in their motorhomes.
13191 lbs.
With a GVWR of 14500, that leaves 1309 lbs for water, waste, cargo, and people
Let's see, 60 gallons of water or waste is almost 500 lbs.
Four people, at 150 lbs each is 600 lb, so that leave only 200 lbs for food, cooking gear, clothes, folding chairs and all the other stuff you need for basic RVing.  We carry more than that in just tools and spare parts.
It's going to be over the GVW all the time, like so many Class Cs built today, based on the E450 chassis.
30/31' LDs have a similar situation, limited CCC and a huge amount of interior and exterior storage that can't be fully used unless you collect light stuff, like styrofoam.

A few nights ago, we had a 35' E450 Class C parked next to us. It had one slide and six passengers.
Wondered how far over the GVW it was?  It looked like a monster, parked next to our 24' LD.

How the manufacturers get a way with this is beyond me. With rigs being sold with next to no cargo capacity, how do they expect them to be used and stay within the chassis's legal weight capacity?   It would seem the safety liability issues would have an effect but?  Are they immune from lawsuits?
And effect what does running a chassis continuously over its GVW have on its reliability? It cannot be positive.

For anyone wanting to purchase one of these oversized Class Cs, make sure to get a verified weight certificate from the dealer before signing the check.  Same goes for buying from a private party.
You need to go into this with your eyes wide open.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #23 –
Quote from: Larry Wade  - 

How the manufacturers get a way with this is beyond me. With rigs being sold with next to no cargo capacity, how do they expect them to be used and stay within the chassis's legal weight capacity?  It would seem the safety liability issues would have an effect but?  Are they immune from lawsuits?


Getting a little off-topic, but they can get away with it because they (at least Jayco), post the weights somewhere and put the responsibility of not exceeding loaded/actual use weight on the buyer/owner.  Many RV buyers have no idea what stuff weighs, or where to get a coach weighed.

Here is an example of what Jayco puts on one of their motorhomes (in this case, a diesel pusher class A).  Note the wording about "combined weight of cargo and passengers should not exceed XXXX".  That shifts the ownership of the weight checking to the buyer of the coach, and how many typical buyers actually have any idea (or means) to know what they, their stuff, and their water weigh?

Michelle

(ETA - our Foretravel did it a little bit better, at least they posted figures for water and people) 
Re: Apples to Apples? 2017 MB vs a 2017 Jayco Greyhawk 31FS
Reply #24 –
Quote from: Larry Wade  - 
How the manufacturers get a way with this is beyond me. With rigs being sold with next to no cargo capacity, how do they expect them to be used and stay within the chassis's legal weight capacity?   It would seem the safety liability issues would have an effect but?  Are they immune from lawsuits?
And effect what does running a chassis continuously over its GVW have on its reliability? It cannot be positive.

And it's not just the big boys. I remember when I first became interested in getting a motorhome. I became enamored with the Toyota Dolphin. Small with great gas mileage, it made so much sense . . . until I did a little research on weights and capacities, that is!
Greg & Victoria
2017 Mid-Bath  “Nocona” towing a manual 2015 Forester
Previously a 1985 TK
SKP #61264