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Topic: Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforcement (Read 1528 times) previous topic - next topic
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Thoughts On Towing and Hitch Hardware Reinforcement
I don't claim to know it all, so feel free to post rebuttals.

Why Tow

It’s a life style choice. We would not travel without our Jeep. We take our Lazy Daze places many would not. We take the Jeep to the places the LD can not go. If your traveling style means short duration trips, full hooks and stopping at scenic overlooks. You will be fine without a toad.

What To Tow

Unless you intend to do some serious off-road wheeling, I would discourage getting a TJ or JK Jeep. They are special purpose vehicles for rock climbing, etc. If you want the convenience of a transfer case for towing, but don’t intend to drive the Moab trails, you would save weight and money getting an older Grand Cherokee or a newer Renegade.

If you don’t need a Jeep, there are some other vehicles, such as the Forester, which can be towed four down with few restrictions.

Got to have a Jeep? Consider the lighter weight TJ model that were built through 2006. If you want a new JK Jeep, consider the lighter 2DR rather then the popular 4DR. Understand that the rear seat on a 2DR is only suitable for dogs and small kids, but it’s lighter and turns sharper than the Unlimited. Our rear seat came out the day we brought the Jeep home.


The Hitch

An ongoing topic in the Lazy Days forum is towing over 4,000 pounds which is the rated maximum for the factory hitch. “Beefing up” the hitch is the common suggestion. What constitutes “beefing” is nebulous. How does one find a “good hitch shop”. I am not willing to trust that just anyone knows how to do it. All I can say is that doubling the attachment to the frame might be the way to go. That seems like a simple task to me. Weld on two additional braces. Maybe that’s all that’s required.

We have towed a 4,250 pound Jeep for 85,000 miles on the factory hitch. Since 10% is a common engineering safety margin I am comfortable. I did upgrade the bumper bolts to Grade 8 with larger washers. I found several loose nuts in the process. I used blue Locktight when I put on the new bolts. The bolt upgrade may have increased the tow capacity? Whatever you are towing this is a MUST MOD. Thanks to Larry Wade for this excellent improvement.

The Crux Of The Matter

If I were looking at a used LD I would be leery of one that had a beefed up hitch. I would wonder exactly how much they had been towing? There is not only the 4,000 hitch limit, there is the almost ignored 20,000 pound GCWR. That rating decreases as the elevation increases. I would wonder how the extra weight has affected the transmission? Did the owner monitor the transmission temperature with a gauge? How often was the fluid changed. I would look at the color of the fluid.

Downhill, the extra weight is stressing two components, the transmission and the brakes. Assuming you are using Tow Haul and allowing the engine to partially brake the decent, the  extra weigh can spin the transmission toward the red line. Using the brakes more heats the rotors. Have you priced those lately? 2008 rigs come with larger rotors that should help. [Had I known Ford was going to make that change, I would have waited a few months to place the order]

It’s balancing act to get the toad brakes to engage correctly. You sure don’t want them coming on too hard and braking the Lazy Daze. The ability to set when and how hard the toad brakes come on are an advantage of systems like SMI makes.

Also Important, But Neglected.

The GCWR is reduced 2% per 1,000 feet of elevation. This applies to ALL E450 chassis with the V10 engine.

We unhook, if we are going over 6,000 feet for any distance. Think of that long steep grade west of Denver. Our MB is 13,700 + 4,250 for the Jeep, for a total of 18,000 -  inside the max GCWR at sea level, but not above 5,000 feet. And you want to tow how much? Folks, you should be just as concerned about the hitch limit as the GCWR.

Case in point - This morning we ascended US14 west bound from Sheridan. We disconnected around 5,500. At the top, 7,900 feet, the transmission temperature was 211. I would suggest the temperature would have been higher had we towed. I know we would have exceeded the GCWR.

Bottom line, if your are towing much over the rated capacity of the hitch, it’s a good thing to have it doubly connected to the frame. It’s is important to weigh both vehicles, to monitor your transmission temperature and to not tow at higher elevations. And know that a informed buyer may see the beefed up hitch as a concern.

Feedback

I am all but certain that some one reading this is saying I have 31 footer and I tow 4,500+ and I have had zero problems. Fine. Recall that I tow over the rated hitch capacity. So if you tow more than I do and have experienced no problems, others would like to hear about it. Please post your down the road rig and tow weights, any hitch mods you have made, your mileage and how some idea of how often you get above 6,000.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #1 –
Don, we don't tow currently in our LD.  But, I found the info you posted very helpful, especially if we choose to tow down the road.  Thanks.
2011 MB
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #2 –
Quote from: Don Malpas  - 
I don't claim to know it all, so feel free to post rebuttals.

Why Tow

It’s a life style choice. We would not travel without our Jeep. We take our Lazy Daze places many would not. We take the Jeep to the places the LD can not go. If your traveling style means short duration trips, full hooks and stopping at scenic overlooks. You will be fine without a toad.

Well, here's a different view - not so much on whether to tow, but why. We enjoy the occasional foray with friends as passenger in THEIR jeep, but when we get as far as the LD will take us, I would prefer to continue on foot, away from on or off-road traffic as much as possible, to enjoy the wilderness and wide-open spaces. Since camping at a trailhead is also not our cup of tea, in many cases a toad is nice to make that commute - and rarely would a 4WD, high clearance vehicle be needed for that.

However, there are many places we want to explore that are NOT in the wilderness category, and which are impractical to negotiate with the Lazy Daze, particularly cities. Since we only recently tow, there are many instances in past trips, short and long, when we wished for one, and when public transportation fell short of our needs. For this, our little Honda Fit is ideal. Additionally, an economical choice like this can really reduce fuel costs on trips that incur a lot of vehicle sightseeing, which a heavier, less efficient choice would not. And, BTW, will get us to higher altitudes without disconnecting!

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #3 –


For the eight years we owned our 1983 LD, we wished it had the power to pull a toad.
It's small 350 V8 had a hard time pulling itself up mountain grades.
Previously we had owned pickups and a van, equipped for back road travel and we missed the ability to explore areas way beyond the end of the pavement. We love hiking but sometimes the trailhead can be many miles down a poor road.
If you travel much in the West,  you will find thousands of miles of back roads to explored but a high clearance vehicle is needed and 4X4 or AWD is a real plus.
It's all a trade off, either a light-weight street only vehicle or a heavier back road capable one, it's your choice, based upon your habits and desires.

In 2003, when the 23.5' FL became available with a V10, on the E450 chassis, we ordered one and immediately started investigating toads.  It had to be either 4X4 or all-wheel-drive.
We settled on a 3 year old Jeep Cherokee 4X4, due to it being lighter than a Jeep Wrangler, a lot cheaper but still a vehicle that had great back/off-road potential, along with strong aftermarket support and the ability to carry up to five passengers.
After 8 years without a toad and 13 years with, It's the best thing we have done to improve our LD travel experiences.

We have had problems with the bumper and hitch's hardware loosening, as reported here before,
Both the bumper mount and the receiver plate now have upgraded hardware, all with nyloc lock nuts, and has been problem free now for several years.  If you tow, especially heavier vehicles, I strongly recommend doing the same.
You would be surprised how many loose hitches and bumpers have found over the years.
Rear bumper mounting repair | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Hitch receiver upgrade | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

While our 13,000-lb LD has pulled the Cherokee over several 11,000' passes, we try to disconnect for long, high altitude climbs, it is easier on both the LD and its driver, plus it can save a lot of time. 
Can't say I have ever found a paved road that the LD couldn't pull the Jeep up or overheated on and we have spent a lot of time in the various mountains of the the West. 
The Mountain Directory West app alerts us to upcoming high, steep grades, it's a gift for Colorado travelers.
Mountain Directory for Truckers, RV, and Motorhome Drivers

2003 FL with 95,000 miles, 65,000 miles of pulling the Cherokee
Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #4 –
Larry, and others, looking for opinions on hitch hardware.  First, my receiver bolts seem to be tight.  I haven't checked the bumper mounting bolts yet.  I have a 2008 MB and tow a Subaru Forester.  I am almost at 18000 lbs, and my TOAD, loaded, is about 3880 lbs.  So, I am close to, but within, the limits all the way around.  I tow over 7000 feet, but as a solo act, no option.  So, I take it easy.

I am considering upgrading to class 8 hardware.  Right now, if the hitch or bumper were to shift, I assume it would begin to deform the Class 5 hardware.  If I go to Class 8 hardware, might the harder hardware deform the frame holes because the frame is softer steel?  Hardware is relatively easy to replace.  The frame is not.

I considered the effect of a backing plate.  The current design has two "plates" - one for the frame and one for the hitch, or one for the hitch and one for the receiver.  For a hole to deform, or for hardware to be damaged, the two plates must shift against each other.  Adding a large plate and using 6 bolts rather than 4 improves resistance to shifting, but adding a backing plate with two or 4 holes should not.  Picture it this way - do not tighten the bolts.  Wiggle the hitch (or bumper).  The play is between the two plates.  Adding a third plate does not remove the play between the two plates.  That play exists until the bolts are torqued down, and then, the change is due only to plate to plate friction, a factor that should be discounted when calculating shear loading.  Unless I have forgotten something, the shear strength calculation does not change with a third plate, unless I do what Larry did - weld the edges, or make the plate large enough that I go from a 4 bolt system to a 6 bolt system.

Assume that I am not going to weld the edges.  Should I go to Class 8 hardware and risk deforming the frame, or should I stay with Class 5 hardware and check periodically for looseness?  My instinct at this moment, pending input from others, is to stay with Class 5 hardware.  Opinions, anyone?

Ken F in OR



'08 MB
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #5 –
Quote from: Kenneth Fears  - 
Should I go to Class 8 hardware and risk deforming the frame, or should I stay with Class 5 hardware and check periodically for looseness?  My instinct at this moment, pending input from others, is to stay with Class 5 hardware.  Opinions, anyone?

The problem with the class 5 hardware is that it loosens, perhaps due to stretching, and that allows the holes to deform. Class 8 hardware should prevent that. An additional option is to also upgrade to larger rear receiver bolts to match the front ones.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #6 –
As I reported before, I had a conversion with a steel fabricator that builds the hitch plates for LD.
He told me about the front, 1/2" bolts snapping off when pulling heavy toads or if the towbar angle is too great.
When upgrading the hitch hardware, the forward 1/2" grade-5 bolts were replaced with 5/8" grade-8 bolts, after the holes were enlarged.
Nylon lock nuts were used to prevent loosening, along with grade-8 washers.
The rear 7/8" bolts grade-5 bolts were upgraded to grade-8.
I added several short tack welds, each about an inch long, positioned where they can be cut with an angle grinder if future repairs are needed.  Each weld is the equivalent of another bolt.
The welds prevent any movement that might lead to the loosening of the bolts. I would consider this to be a good fix or upgrade
As for the bumper mount, adding plates to each side increases the amount of surface area that is under tension and friction is what keeps the parts from moving in relation to each other. If you look at my photos, you will see how sloppy the adjustment slots are, the stock washers caved into the overly wide slots, letting the non-lock nuts loosen and fall off. The plates solved the problem.
 
Since the improvements, we have driven many miles of bad roads without any loosening.
You can bet that the torque of each bolt is checked annually.

Wishing it would cool down so the annual cleaning and waxing can start.
Larry


Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #7 –
Hi Ken. After Larry W. mentioned his problems with the receiver plate mounting bolts, and bumper to frame connecting bolts, I took mine apart to look at the situation. At the factory someone had a problem getting the frame hole to match the bumper holes, and took a welding torch to enlarge the hole. This left blobs of metal around the edge of the slot in the frame. The washers had very little friction surface, and overtightening the bolts just dished the washers into the slot. (Wish I had taken pictures) I ground off the blobs to make a flat surface. Upgraded to all grade 8 bolts and grade 8 washers, and made a backing plate. The first photo shows I had to carve up the washers on the nut end of the bolt to fit into the channel backing plate. The second photo shows the grade 8 bolts and washers holding the receiver mount to the bumper. The third photo shows the roller I added to the receiver mount. I torqued all these bolts as tight as I could using 18" breaker bar. maybe 300 ft-lbs.
  As long as the bolts don't slip, I don't see any problem with the frame. I considered using red Locktite on the nuts, but I will just check them periodically for tightness. HTHelped. RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #8 –
Nice pics, and helpful, descriptive post. I am going to look at mine more closely as soon as we return! I know Larry has written about this many times, an your photos and observations really made it sink in. We don't tow yet, but it is in the plan.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #9 –
Okay, y'all are scaring me. Lots of low stress towing on the flat Great Plains of an 07 Forester (curb went 3,140) but still ........
Ruby, the red 2004 26' RK hauling Dave and Kristine hither and yon
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Traxless  - 
I found the following article regarding Grade 5 bolts vs Grade 8 bolts educational.

Grade 5 vs Grade 8 Fasteners - TineLok

This might be of interest to others especially given the subject at hand.
After you have read and pondered the above link and found out that grade-8 is better than grade-5, in high stress applications, take a long look at this link. It's a torque chart for SAE bolts (the measurement system used in the US).
http://www.imperialsupplies.com/pdf/A_FastenerTorqueCharts.pdf
There is no use in upgrading hitch or bumper hardware if it isn't torqued to specs, don't waste your money if you don't.
Take a look at the photo below.
IMG_1807 | lw5315us | Flickr
It's shows our LD's hitch, removed after 60,000 miles of towing of towing a Jeep Cherokee.
Zoom in around the bolt holes and notice the shiny spots. Thats where the hitch was moving and rubbing.
The hardware was the stock, grade-5 nuts and bolts, torqued to SAE specs.
Shiny spots are a sign of inadequate clamping, the hardware was not up to the task.
Any questions?

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
 
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #12 –
I made some minor updates to this post and migrated the original post to The Companion. It also refers back to this post to include the comments made here. It also refers to another post by Larry Wade on beefing up the hitch. I think all of both facts and opinions on matters towing are now in one place.

In response to the occasional comment made on this forum about tow weight, I added this:
You can move your rock collection from the LD to the toad axle, but all of the weight counts toward the GCWR. There is no free lunch.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #13 –
Totally true, but moving the rock collection to the toad axle DOES remove it from the GVWR of the motorhome alone.  The GROSS COMBINED VEHICLE WEIGHT RATING (GCVWR) is the limiting factor for both units combined.  The rock collection can be in either place IF the GVWR for that piece of the combination is not exceeded.

   Virtual hugs,

   Judie

•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•~•


Quote from: Don Malpas  - 


In response to the occasional comment made on this forum about tow weight, I added this:
You can move your rock collection from the LD to the toad axle, but all of the weight counts toward the GCWR. There is no free lunch.
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #14 –
We are not in agreement Julie.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #15 –
Quote from: Don Malpas  - 
We are not in agreement Julie.

You're reply is a mystery. I see nothing in either yours or Judie's comments that isn't correct. Are you suggesting that moving weight from the LD to the toad doesn't, in fact, remove that weight from the GVWR for the LD?

Jim
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #16 –
Hmmm...

My Grandmother had a nice rock collection she brought home from Arizona back in the 50's & 60's.

Don' thin' she brought them home like Lucy did... https://youtu.be/Z57zQNujPyY

Kinda tricky what things we like to collect. Feathers are ok, I suppose.

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #17 –
It makes no difference what axle the weight is on as far as the design limits for Ford transmission. It's rated for 20,000 pounds.

If your toad brakes were not completely handling braking the toad, then the Ford would also handling that. The Ford brakes are also rated to stop 20,000 without complaint.

You can find Youtube vids that show a F250 hauling a 737, a locomotive, etc. That does not mean that Ford designed it to do that or that it's not going to shorten the EMMF.

That said Jim, I think that you and the other 31's that tow make the case that the 20,000 pounds is a conservative number.  Otherwise, your transmission would have gone toes-up before now. My hats off to Ford for over-engineering.

I think about these things as I go up a 8% grade with 18,000 pounds, and the engine is spinning at 5,200rpm. What a drive train! Hope it will last.

Since I tow, I follow the heavy service cycle for changing the fluids.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #18 –
Quote from: Don Malpas  - 
It makes no difference what axle the weight is on as far as the design limits for Ford transmission. It's rated for 20,000 pounds.

If your toad brakes were not completely handling braking the toad, then the Ford would also handling that. The Ford brakes are also rated to stop 20,000 without complaint.

You can find Youtube vids that show a F250 hauling a 737, a locomotive, etc. That does not mean that Ford designed it to do that or that it's not going to shorten the EMMF.

That said Jim, I think that you and the other 31's that tow make the case that the 20,000 pounds is a conservative number.  Otherwise, your transmission would have gone toes-up before now. My hats off to Ford for over-engineering.

I think about these things as I go up a 8% grade with 18,000 pounds, and the engine is spinning at 5,200rpm. What a drive train! Hope it will last.

Since I tow, I follow the heavy service cycle for changing the fluids.


Don, I don't think Judie or anyone else was suggesting conditions in which you are going over the GVWR or GCVWR. Like I said, it seems to me that you both are on the same page. I just didn't understand what part of her comment you didn't agree with and thought I was missing something.

Supplemental braking systems when towing most vehicles are a must as well or at least common sense.

As for our 31' plus Subaru the GCVWR is always under 18,000 pounds so we are well within the limit based on multiple weight checks. I would think that would be true for most  out there. Our 2011 Subaru Forester with a heavy bike rack, two mountain bikes and some tools and junk in the back has never exceeded 3800 pounds. The typical toad that I see people towing behind the E450 chassis at most comes in between 4 and 5K.

I change transmission fluid about every 20K and monitor temps with a Scanguage. Of course, I realize that doesn't immunize me from a failure. John's recent post about his 2007 comes to mind.

Jim
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #19 –
I have been towing my 99 Cherokee which is a little over 4100 lbs.  I did not have a receiver on my 97 TK and had one welded in.(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

1997 TK
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #20 –
I have stated my case. I am going to leave it where it is Jim.
Don & Dorothy
Sold our LD in June of 2023

Our boring always non-PC travel blog
Traveling Dorothy
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #21 –
Re: lightweight toads.  FYI, FWIW: 
We tow a neat little Honda FIT.  With rear seat folded it is a mini-cargo hauler.  The FIT weighs 2500 pounds and carries 450 pounds of stuff loaded in the back.
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #22 –
Quote from: RonB  - 
Hi Ken. After Larry W. mentioned his problems with the receiver plate mounting bolts, and bumper to frame connecting bolts, I took mine apart to look at the situation. At the factory someone had a problem getting the frame hole to match the bumper holes, and took a welding torch to enlarge the hole. This left blobs of metal around the edge of the slot in the frame. The washers had very little friction surface, and overtightening the bolts just dished the washers into the slot. (Wish I had taken pictures) I ground off the blobs to make a flat surface.... RonB

I was working on this very issue tonight and did remember to take some pictures.  Posted here to reinforce the cautionary tale above...

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

(Sorry, but you are not allowed to access the gallery)

I don't fault the manufacturer for wanting some 'wiggle room' when they get to the end of a 25/30+ foot long custom built vehicle.  An inch or so of final adjustment is not out of line.  But it would have been better to make that slot with a milling machine, so it was clean, straight and smooth, rather than with a torch.  But that's just me...

Also, when the washers are too large, the edge rides in the cove of the C-channel, and eventually bends there, too, adding to the loosening.  They make small pattern washers that are just 1/8" or so larger than the lockwashers.  With the standard setup, hardened flat and lock washers, and grade 8-level nuts are an improvement.  When using the plate mentioned above (with snug-to-the-bolt holes), it acts like one big washer, so additional flat washers are optional in my view.  Using them won't hurt, of course, as long as they're flat to the material when tightened.

Chip


2000 Front Lounge
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #23 –
Quote from: Chip Chester  - 
Also, when the washers are too large, the edge rides in the cove of the C-channel, and eventually bends there, too, adding to the loosening.  They make small pattern washers that are just 1/8" or so larger than the lockwashers.  With the standard setup, hardened flat and lock washers, and grade 8-level nuts are an improvement.  When using the plate mentioned above (with snug-to-the-bolt holes), it acts like one big washer, so additional flat washers are optional in my view.  Using them won't hurt, of course, as long as they're flat to the material when tightened.
I over engineered the solution to the overly wide slots and will never worry about them again.
Rear bumper mounting repair | Flickr

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: My Thoughts On Towing
Reply #24 –
As I recall LD made some upgrades to their installation of the hitch receiver in the 2003 time frame due to some problems that had been brought to their attention. I believe Art, "Older Fossil," had some problems that were one example.

For instance, our 2003, which may be newer than Larry's 2003 and is certainly newer than Art's 2002, came standard with Grade 8 bolts attaching the receiver to the chassis/bumper. I just inspected things and everything remains straight, solid, tight and seemingly well attached back there despite towing a Wrangler on virtually every bit of our travels since 2004, probably 95,000 miles or so.

One thing mentioned above is the angle of the tow bar. From what I've read it is important to have the tow bar level when your toad is attached to  your LD on flat ground, preferably with a simple straight hitch, not a drop hitch.

That's one thing I liked from the start about our Wrangler with a Demco tow bar and baseplate. The tow bar ended up level without any modification, straight into the hitch receiver.

A drop hitch (or the less common riser hitch) inevitably puts additional strain on the hitch receiver and its attachments. Steve Newton once told me that the rating of the LD hitch receiver is for a "straight pull." Anything that departs from that would probably affect the rating adversely.

Terry
2003 26.5' RB
Gardnerville, NV
Terry
2003 26.5'RB
Gardnerville, NV