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Topic: Gremlins in my backup lights? (Read 910 times) previous topic - next topic
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Gremlins in my backup lights?
Dear Wizards--

I thought I posted about this a couple of days ago, but could find neither my original question, nor any responses--for some reason the local McD's lets me read on this site, but sometimes throws up an error & won't let me post (more gremlins?).  I'm at the library now, so hope this goes through.

 Wednesday evening I went out in the driveway to get the paper & noticed my white backup lights were on--this had not been an issue the previous evening when I brought LDy Lulubelle to the Stix & Brix to start prepping for Ladeze. 

I have done the following: checked all the switches by the main coach entry door (I know there are porch/utility lights for driver/curbside, but thought maybe there was something I'd missed to turn on the white lights for extra light out back)--no; I turned the ignition key to the "ON" position & moved the gear shift to "R"/to "D"/back to"R"--nothing changed/white backup lights still blazingly bright; tapped breaks while shifting through the positions (P/R/N/D/etc)--still no change in the white backup lights. 

Just had another thought as I looked at the buttons below...perhaps I saved it as a draft at McD's but didn't post when I came to the library the next day...now I don't remember how to retrieve a saved draft to post.   :-[   Anyway, I would be thankful for any thoughts on why my backup lights are permanently on, if it's something I can remedy, or if I need to have it looked at before I hit the road.  Hope I do this right this time.  Thx to all.

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #1 –
Hello Lynn.  Can't help on the backup lights.  Wish I could.  Draft posts ... Go to account, go to profile.  You should see posts, stats, and drafts on the left of the page.
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #2 –
Lynne.  I've found a number of similar problems with Google.  The common denominator problem was a switch wired/attached to the transmission.  Several Ford truck owners took their problem backup lights to Ford for repair.  This is the best I can find.
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #3 –
Backup lights are usually controlled by a switch on the transmission. Used to be cheap but with the newer versions where there is a witch on the same shaft that tells the engine computer what gear you are in may not be as simple. 

Garry
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #4 –
Not witch but switch  but when it don't work you maybe tempted to think of it as a witch..

Garry
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #5 –
The backup lights should not be 'on' unless the ignition switch is in the 'run' position, no matter the transmission mode. So, the wiring has probably been re-routed somehow, either by someone working on the chassis, or possibly rats eating through insulation and shorting out wires.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #6 –
Quote from: Steve  - 
The backup lights should not be 'on' unless the ignition switch is in the 'run' position, no matter the transmission mode. So, the wiring has probably been re-routed somehow, either by someone working on the chassis, or possibly rats eating through insulation and shorting out wires.

Steve


Good point Steve I missed that.


Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #7 –
Ed, Garry, & Steve--

Thx for the ideas.  This is so bizarre...the ignition is "OFF" (the steering column is locked & the key is out of the ignition); re: re-routing wires, no work has been done (especially between Tuesday evening when I brought her to the house to prep & Wednesday evening when I first discovered this).  I'll check for critter damage, but all I've noticed around the house/yard are the squirrels who are trying to gain access to my nuts (my stash of pecans/walnuts/hickory nuts seems to have been broadcast on the Tell-A-Squirrel Network)   :P .

Garry, I knew what you meant (re: "witch"), but I am thinking another consonant at the front of the alphabet is closer to my attitude about this...   ::)

I have a neighbor who once ran a Ford implement dealership in town, so I may ask his opinion.  I'll report back when this gets resolved.  Thx, again, guys.

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #8 –
I have no good guesses. Steve is on the right track, they should never be on with the ignition in the 'off' position.
Until you can fix the problem, remove the backup bulbs, so you can drive without blinding someone behind you.
You might check the owner's manual to see if there is a fuse for the backup lights, which could be removed.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #9 –
Thx, Larry--

I was wondering about this, if it wasn't resolved before I hit the road next Tuesday heading to Ladeze...another thing to learn, & a host of good teachers (wish I'd had some of ya'll around when I was taking my grad stat course   :P )

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #10 –
Just in case it wasn't obvious, those lights are going to run down your engine battery. I'd pull the bulbs right now, before you find out that you can't start your coach to take it to a mechanic.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #11 –
the tow harness is down there too. The back up lights wouldn't be in the harness but a stray squirrel may have tried to put this I'll gotten gains somewhere and loosened some grounds for you.

If you haven't pulled the bulbs. I'm not sure that is easy. The fuse should be accessible. In the main box. Manual and box labels and will tell you what they are. Disconnect that starts ng battery will prove it is the source of the issue and keep it healthy to drive in future.
Lydia.
Current: 2020 JLUR w 15’ Squaredrop
Former: 2006 30IB Anniversary Edition
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #12 –
Quote from: Lydia Drake  - 
the tow harness is down there too. The back up lights wouldn't be in the harness but a stray squirrel may have tried to put this I'll gotten gains somewhere and loosened some grounds for you.

If you haven't pulled the bulbs. I'm not sure that is easy. The fuse should be accessible. In the main box. Manual and box labels and will tell you what they are. Disconnect that starts ng battery will prove it is the source of the issue and keep it healthy to drive in future.
Lydia, I think all that needs to be done to pull the bulbs is to unscrew the lens ring, remove it and remove the bulbs. 
Chris
Formerly: 2002 30' IB
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #13 –
Dear Wizards--

The Ford service manuals are soooo confusing for a know-nothing (the index had nothing about "back up lights"--it was something about "lamps, reverse", & nothing about a "fuse box" but we finally found something about a "power distribution module), but I'm learning.  :P 

Here's some new info.  My neighbor was trying to help me wade through all these excellent suggestions, as well as some Google info, and finally suggested just disconnecting the chassis battery (yes, Andy, I'd thought about the battery running down...& wondered why it hadn't with those lights on continuously for five days now  ??? ).  My neighbor was thinking it might reset something somewhere (I do love the notion of the spontaneous regeneration of inanimate objects).  Guess what?? No reset--spontaneous or otherwise;  the lights did not go out with the chassis battery disconnected.   >:(   I'm going deep into mechanical/electrical/unknown (to me) territory weeds at this point, but if the lights didn't go out with the chassis battery disconnected, does that mean they are being powered by the solar system?  ...or maybe there really are gremlins (& are you paranoid if they really are out to get you?)

Whatever the case, uh, now what?  I will pull the bulbs  as suggested (Yes, Chris is correct--there are three screws holding the lens ring in place, so that's easy), to keep from blinding drivers behind me, but I was thinking I'd just go to Merle Kelley Ford that did good work for me back in July (I'm going back to Chanute, to KS RV, anyway).  A) If it's not the chassis battery, other thoughts?  B) If it's not the chassis battery, does it make sense to go to Ford, or do I start looking for answers about the solar system?  C) AM Solar is a loooong ways from the boonies of north Missouri, so I'm in a quandary.

Thx, all--

Lynne

Instead of I Am Woman, Hear Me Roar, I'm now just Confused In The Midwest :P    :(

Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #14 –
Lynne. I don't think your rig is new enough to have LED reverse lights, Those 'back up'  lights are incandescent. They are only supposed to go on when you are in "Reverse" to let other drivers know you are backing up. Don't remove the three screws mounting each light fixture to your motorhome. Remove the white lens first by squeezing together the ends of that steel ring you will find on each of your six back light fixtures (both red brake/turn/running, and reverse). Use a cloth and push up on the bulbs towards the base and turn 'lefty' to release the bayonet pins on the bulb from the fixture. A spring should push the bulbs out. the wiring harness is protected somewhat; you would need a short of the reverse hot lead to another hot lead. If you pull the fuse you would likely lose something else with it, like your horn, or marker lights, etc. The solar system isn't suddenly running your lights. It is unlikely that rodents would cause this type of problem. I would suggest it is a misalignment of the gear selector, and the mechanism operating the lights. Do you have a Dodge Chassis? and yes the lights might stay on, even without the key. Hope this helped. RonB
RonB (Bostick) living in San Diego
Original owner of "Bluebelle" a '99 TKB
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #15 –
Ok so here is a really dumb question (kinda lost track of the Gremlins progress at this point)...here goes.

Have you started your truck and shifted through the gears? Sometimes "stuff just happens" and you know Gremlins...they can be tricky.

Just sayin'/askin'

Kent
2015 27' RB "MissB.Haven"
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #16 –
Lynne's initial post in this thread said that she had run through all the gears several times with no change in the backup lights. Her report that the lights did not go out with the chassis battery disconnected makes this mystery even deeper.

Clearly something is powering those lights. If they're still on when the engine isn't running, that something could be the engine battery, the house battery, the converter (if plugged in), or the solar panels. She has ruled out the engine battery by disconnecting it. Her initial post said that she first noticed the problem on Wednesday evening. Does that mean the lights are on all night, in the dark? If so, then the solar panels are ruled out, leaving only the house batteries or the converter.

So the first question that comes to mind is: is the rig plugged in? If so, unplug it and see what happens. Pull the solar power system fuse and see what happens. Disconnect the house batteries and see what happens. These steps should help you pin down where the power is coming from.

One of the puzzling things about this situation is that it strains credulity to think the backup lights--a standard Ford chassis feature--would somehow be getting power other than from the engine battery. But wait--there are two possible links between that battery and the house batteries.

First, the isolator is supposed to allow the engine battery/alternator circuit to charge the house batteries when the engine is running, but prevent the house circuits from draining the engine battery when it isn't. However, a defective isolator (and that's not uncommon, given that they're mounted under the hood in an extremely hostile environment) could be allowing the house batteries to power the backup lights.

Second, some solar charging controllers have a separate output to charge the engine battery. If Lynne's does, it's possible that it could be feeding power to the chassis's system even with the engine battery disconnected. In other words, it might be effectively bypassing the isolator, at least during the day.

So for what it's worth, here's one possible scenario. Let's say a defective switch on the transmission is trying to turn on the backup lights all the time. And let's say the isolator has failed in such a way that the house batteries are connected to the engine battery, and thus to the chassis electrical system, all the time. Then the backup lights could be on all the time, even with the engine battery out of the circuit. If so, then disconnecting the house batteries (at night, when there is no solar power, and when the coach is not plugged in) should turn off the lights.

There are probably other ways this situation could occur, but that's at least one way.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #17 –
Under the hood, behind the coolant reservoir, there is a bundle of wires that is often damaged from rubbing the rear of the reservoir.  The wire's insulation can be scraped off, allowing the wires to possibly contact each other.
Removing the three screws, securing the reservoir,  allows looking behind to see if any wire damage is present. If so, use electrical tape to repair missing insulation and lastly, bend the wire bundle away from the reservoir, to prevent further damage.

Another very possible cause is a previous owner installed a switch to turn on the backup lights, as an aid in dealing with a toad, at night.  Look around for any unexplained switches in the dash area.
Your LD would not be the first to have a switch for the backup lights.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
 
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #18 –
"Under the hood, behind the coolant reservoir, there is a bundle of wires that is often damaged from rubbing the rear of the reservoir.  The wire's insulation can be scraped off, allowing the wires to possibly contact each other."
----
I learned about this issue a few years ago, and boogied right out to the rig to see if the wires (in a 2003) were bundled and away from the coolant reservoir! They were, apparently delivered from the factory all compactly wrapped, because I hadn't done it, and I'm the original owner. I wonder if the lack of "bundling" was something that affected LDs of earlier model years?

Since you've worked on a bazillion rigs of all models and years, have you observed the non-bundled wires in post-2003 LDs? Definitely worth checking on any model year, of course!
2003 TK has a new home
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #19 –
Chris. 05 and 06 had incandescent tail light array from factory with the spring clip bezel. Not the most intuitive removal process. Also those who converted to led usually left the back up lights alone. My previous owner did.

Lynne

You have a 31 foot. I do too. However I have the IB. I have access from side to side through a pass through bin arrangement. I can access the wiring for the tail lights there. If someone was apt to make changes for a switch they could have done it there and loading your bins hit it.

I can attest to wierd switches hidden in places. I put one in my LD dash to keep the critters from unlocking the cab and my jeep had one installed Hidden to turn off the cabin lights when the doors are of or open long.

I could see a switch hidden a away choosing between normal cab driven reverse operation and toad hook up assist. Makes sense

Not that it helps now. But I am going to give a talk on electricity involving hands on work by the participant. I am using bulbs too  if you don't have it rectified by the time you come up  (and regale us with the whole story) I'll be happy to dig in and see if we can resolve it  💅




Lydia.
Current: 2020 JLUR w 15’ Squaredrop
Former: 2006 30IB Anniversary Edition
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #20 –
Quote from: JCT  - 
Since you've worked on a bazillion rigs of all models and years, have you observed the non-bundled wires in post-2003 LDs? Definitely worth checking on any model year, of course!
Quote from: JCT  - 

Terry Tanner was the first to find this problem in his 2000 MB. He found wires with big bare spots. I have seen several more with the same issue. Our 2003 LD was rubbing.
Not sure how long the rubbing issue persisted but it is worth checking on any E450 chassis. Many have minor rub marks.
The fix is to bend the wiring harness away from the reservoir.

Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #21 –
Hi, All--

Update:  My 6'+ 20-something young man (who laughed at me from my yard when I channeled Helen Reddy from LDy Lulubelle's roof) pulled the LEDs for me, so no blinding anyone behind me--by the way, RonB, I was wrong: there are 16 LEDs in each backup light, not 9, but thx for your earlier thoughts.

                 I came through Kansas City for a couple of appointments, before heading to KS RV in Chanute for an appointment tomorrow.  Though I had turned on the ignition & shifted through the gears when this saga first started, I didn't pull out of the driveway until this afternoon.  With sun to the left & in front of me, I used my visor at various times, & there's another gremlin--the backup camera monitor in the visor won't power off???   :P    ???

I will A) ask KS RV about this or B) go to Jake (the great Service Mgr at Merle Kelly Ford on the same street in Chanute, who was so helpful with the alignment/bushing replacement/etc. in July), or C) wait to be a demonstration of electrical mysteries/searching for gremlins during Ladeze (thx, Lydia--I am so looking forward to your presentation, learning to use my dad's voltmeter, & exploring the magic & wizardry of electricity.  I did take an evening adult ed class at our vo-tech years ago, & though realizing my limitations, added some outdoor GFCIs to my previous stix 'n brix, with no fires or electrocutions in the past 20 years).

Lydia, thx for the thought about hidden switches in the pass through, but I'd not been in/out of there 'til I was loading today...but now I know somewhere else I must go spelunking.   :)

I will have this page up when I go to KS RV or Merle Kelly, in order to share all the thoughts & efforts at troubleshooting from those who have intimate knowledge of the anatomy of an LD.  Thx to you all...more to follow...Ldy Lulubelle, the 4-Legged Alarm, & I are headed west--it's Ladeze or bust.  As Ed says, "And so it goes."    :)

Lynne
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #22 –
Good morning, All--

The rain last night did nothing to reduce the humidity here in Kansas--but Chanute has a nice FREE campground with H2O & electric, so I did have AC last night.

KS RV replaced my toilet valve in a jiffy first thing this morning--they made it look so easy, but it's worth it to me to have somebody who knows what he's doing knock that chore out.   

I then drove down the street to Merle Kelly Ford & Jake had a slot open up this morning--Patrick (the same tech who worked on her in July) is now hunting for the gremlins...& they've got internet, so news of gremlins may be forthcoming.

Paul, I so admire you & the others who talk about your adventures when you are putting Humpty-Dumpty back together again, or just doing creative mods like pantries/adding tile to the kitchen/changing out the flooring/etc.--each discussion is a learning opportunity.  Thx!


Lynne
 
Lynne
LDy Lulubelle, Green '05 31' TB
Lilly, the 4-Legged Alarm
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #23 –
Lynne, as the French say, bon courage!
I would soon rebuild an engine than deal with your lights issue. Electicity is something that makes me feel stupid. Enjoy Chanute, near where my parents were married.
Paul
'92 Mid Bath
Re: Gremlins in my backup lights?
Reply #24 –
I'm sure hoping that these annoying problems get sorted.  Sounds to me that you deserve a bit of peace and quiet.  Please keep us updated.