What's high mileage August 27, 2016, 07:35:49 pm Hi all. In my continued quest to find a 27' MB, I've come across a couple in the 98-00 yr range with a bit over 100k miles. What should I expect maintenance wise from the E450 with this mileage like this? Thank you.
Re: What's high mileage Reply #1 – August 27, 2016, 08:05:13 pm "In my continued quest to find a 27' MB, I've come across a couple in the 98-00 yr range with a bit over 100k miles. What should I expect maintenance wise from the E450 with this mileage like this?"-----This is a difficult (if not impossible) question to answer because every rig has been driven differently under different conditions, and maintained with varying degrees of diligence. Iv'e seen a few that are pretty much trashed at half that mileage, usually due to deferred, sloppy, or non-existent maintenance, and some that still have a lot of life left at well over 100k. "High" mileage in itself doesn't necessarily indicate a risky buy if the motorhome and all its systems have been regularly and competently serviced at recommended intervals, that repairs and replacements of engine/systems components have been done when indicated, and that the owner has taken care to prevent leaks and, if found, has repaired them immediately and properly. (Some additional factors to consider are how long the rig "sits" between use, how and where [under what conditions] it has been driven and stored, if the rig has been hauling a toad, and if the rig has been consistently overloaded.)LDs' conditions vary all over the lot; one has to assess each for quality/integrity and value, but, a carefully maintained LD with a lot of miles can be a good buy. (Depending on how one intends to use it, of course.) You might want to check out the Ford maintenance schedules; the link is below. Obviously, there are necessary/desirable services that aren't listed in the maintenance schedules; these cover primarily the "big pieces", but the schedules are a good start. (Note that the schedules indicate services to 150k.)Maintenance Schedules | fleet.ford.com
Re: What's high mileage Reply #2 – August 27, 2016, 09:54:47 pm Thanks JCT. You'd never guess this is new to me! You've pointed out useful tips and considerations that I will need to factor in, including whether it towed a toad, which didn't even cross my mind....so thank you.. 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #3 – August 27, 2016, 10:58:22 pm You asked about the mileage and the E450, which to me, is a harder thing to assess than the coach, another conversation. Service records are prescious. The kind words f person from whom I would consider buying a 100K miler from is the kind of person who logs service in a book or spreadsheet, and has documentation to prove it, probably filed sequentially. In other words, darn few people. But if you find it, worth considering. Some RV owners do this, that's just the kind of people they are. The old "have a mechanic you trust go over it" doesn't really cut it in my experience. You would have to pull the pan on the transmission, run a compression test and full OBDII scan (the years you are looking at fortunately have this feature), pull the wheels to inspect bearings, brakes, steering, etc. Hard to convince an owner to let you do this before buying!If it was me, I would budget $1000-$3000 for a repair fund with that kind of mileage. But the big problem is that when the trans needs rebuilding (and 100k is a lot of miles on any trans working as hard as one in an RV does), do you invest in that behind an engine with little life expectancy left? So my thinking, I would interview the owners, and be ready to look at lower mileage unless I get lucky. 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #4 – August 28, 2016, 12:26:21 am Thanks Paul. More superb input, which helps me prepare questions for the owner. There is a lot of weight to pull, even more if towing a vehicle.
Re: What's high mileage Reply #5 – August 28, 2016, 12:27:38 am Several toad-pulling members on this board have run their LDs up to the 150,000 mile point without engine or transmission failures. I can't recall any engine failures reported. A few engines have been removed for valve seals replacements, done under warranty but none from overheating, the main cause of engine death in the older LDs. Transmission failures were more common in the late 90 and early 2000 models. Later models have had good service records but the transmission's life is dependent on many things, most importantly are regular, complete oil changes. Cooling system problems are not common but I still recommend a ScanGauge, or similar, for monitoring the engine and transmission temperatures. Much bigger transmission cooler are available, a good idea for heavy toads.And we have a full-time member who is near 170,000 miles, still with the original engine and transmission.I have seen many E450 cargo vans with over 200,000 miles on them, so who know how long one of these rigs will last.One thing for sure, they will be around for a very long time.Larry
Re: What's high mileage Reply #6 – August 28, 2016, 12:53:11 am It's odd how we think of these things. I have absolutely no qualms about setting off on a round the country journey in my 24 year old LD, nor my 130,000 mile truck. But when it comes to trusting someone else's high mileage vehicle, I am skeptical. On the other hand, these chassis go on and on in commercial use, where maintenance is properly performed. They are not delicate either. It usually takes a bonehead operator to do them real damage. But, when you are spending a big chunk of your nest egg on one, I can understand being cautious. The price should reflect the mileage, leaving you with that repai fund, that I hope you won't need. 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #7 – August 28, 2016, 01:22:27 am Quote from: paul banbury - August 28, 2016, 12:53:11 amBut, when you are spending a big chunk of your nest egg on one, I can understand being cautious. The price should reflect the mileage, leaving you with that repair fund, that I hope you won't need. Excellent advice. Most rigs older rigs end up costing several thousand dollars to be put in top shape. Tires, batteries and brakes are common major costs. Hidden coach rot or damage can destroy a budget or the feasibility of having a functional RV, the reason why a pre-sale, professional inspection is always desired. We have seen many cases like this on the forum. An LD coach will last a long time IF the various seals are and have always been intact. Anytime after the ten year mark, the cooling system can develop problems, usually requiring hose and radiator changes. Not a cheap or easy task .One advantage of the E450, compared to the big rigs, is the availability of parts. Mechanical parts will be available for another two or three decades, longer than I'm planning on driving. Almost any common part is available from Amazon or Rock Auto, delivered in just a few days.It's easier to find a mechanic to work on an Class C than a DP...but not much. Larry 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #8 – August 28, 2016, 10:07:47 am Ditto the counsel above. In my experience (and I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in this!), many of those new to RVs and "RVing" focus primarily on the initial purchase price and minimize (or ignore) the inevitable ongoing costs of owning an RV. Even if one follows all the "smart buyer" rules" and finds a solid, well-maintained coach at a good price, the cash handed over at that point is just the beginning! Maintenance is not cheap; if one has the skills, know how, tools, awareness of services and repairs that need to be done and how to do them, and a place to do the work, a lot of routine maintenance and repairs can be done by the owner. As Larry said, parts are available from Rock Auto and many other sources. However, if one doesn't have the necessary skills, tools, and general savvy (and the physical ability to do the work), one has two choices: pay for someone to do the maintenance or not do it at all. A part may be cheap, but the labor cost to install it is not. Even if one is aware of an "outside the maintenance schedule service (and there are quite a few of these), not doing/not having done these services in a competent and timely manner is a sure rig killer. (IMO, a lack of awareness of services/maintenance/replacement of all the "moving parts" in a complex machine and in/on the box on top of it is a major reason why some rigs die before their time. Deferred maintenance always costs more.)Shop labor charges vary, obviously, but, as an example, the going rates for labor in the Bay Area of California range from about $120 to $150 per hour; a $20 part can cost $200 to install! These costs have to be factored in to the total costs of ownership; yes, the costs of fuel and insurance and possible storage are very important, but maintenance and repair costs can take the stars out of one's eyes pretty quickly. Lest I sound like a complete cynic who's dissing the lifestyle and warning off newbies, nothing could be farther from the truth; I still much prefer the "goseedo" of the RV lifestyle over any other type of travel, even after many years (and many dollars!) of RV ownership. But, I learned early on that keeping the wheels on the road meant being willing and able to part with the cash to diligently maintain the wagon. Happy trails! (And, as always, YMMV.) 3 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #9 – August 28, 2016, 11:37:18 am Well said Joan! "...that keeping the wheels on the road meant being willing and able to part with the cash to diligently maintain the wagon. "I used to cringe, stress and curse with each $ that I had to spend on these things. Then I grew philosophical and gained perspective. And a discretionary savings account. This journey took many years.My view is that I would rather spend significantly on maintaining, restoring an old rig with character and quality, familiarizing myself with its condition, working with chosen techs (and supporting their families). This is an ancillary part of the experience, like trip planning. I can tell you from my experience only, the big things have been OK (except for that thing about rebuilding the rear of the coach), the little parts that cost $20-$120 on this old rig have been in need of replacement. Switches, modules, seals, relays, sensors. It takes a lot of diligent research and some experience to figure out what has gone wrong when one fails. You pay a minimum of $100 per hour for a tech to do that. Those parts take a minimum of 1.5-2.5 hours to remove and replace. I can do it myself in about 4X the time. It is all a matter of your outlook. As I told my pard when we started out- "We will break down, we will need a tow, so let's not get too upset when that happens." Turned out to be good advice, as our first trip proved. LOL. 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #10 – August 28, 2016, 02:32:46 pm Quote from: Overlander - August 28, 2016, 12:26:21 amThanks Paul. More superb input, which helps me prepare questions for the owner. There is a lot of weight to pull, even more if towing a vehicle. Well you may have a lot of miles left at 100,000 miles but you have 70,000 miles less left than you do with a unit with 30,000 miles. And those 70,000 miles need to be reflected in the price. Money that has been spent on maintenance shouldn't be added to the the value of the unit. The value of the unit is already based on a functioning vehicle. The opposite is not true maintenance needing to be done to a vehicle needs to be deducted from the value of a vehicle. All "standard" valuations are based on a unit in good condition and not needing work, not even tires. I have bought many vehicles with well over 100k but have paid accordingly. If you need to see what the cost of miles is in value do a search on Blue book or something and compare the price of a similar vehicle with 30,000 miles compared with the price with 100,000 miles. Then think what the residual value when you put 50k to 70k more miles on it.The V10's have a bad history of exhaust manifold and spark plug problems that can be very expensive, And the chassis may need major transmission work by 150,000 miles.So like all things in life you have to think it over and make up your own mind.The other kicker is you can buy a RV with 40,000 miles and still have any or all these problems.Also a consideration is a breakdown on the road leaves you very few options on where you get it fixed or what price you payGarry 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #11 – August 28, 2016, 03:16:29 pm "The V10's have a bad history of exhaust manifold and spark plug problems that can be very expensive..."-----Determining which chassis/engine years may be more prone to developing issues can be very helpful for a person shopping for a used LD. I can't speak to issues with the V-10 exhaust manifold (although I'm aware of one case of the manifold bolts falling out/shearing off in a 2003), but I believe that the V-10 spark plug "blowouts" afflicted models (and not every engine experienced this) with four-thread wells (and inadequately torqued plugs) manufactured before spring 2003. My 2003 has the manufacturing date of May 27, 2003, stamped on the head; it has 8-thread wells, and only one plug was very slightly loose when the plugs were changed at about 87k.Andy's "Changes by Year" document (Changes by year) is a good resource to use to determine the timeline of the various power plants (and other chassis information) used in LDs. As ever, YMMV.
Re: What's high mileage Reply #12 – August 28, 2016, 03:43:18 pm Often times, the question comes up. "How much is too much or How many is too many". The generously dispersed wisdom on LDO is quick in coming.From the sage advice and council of our moderators to the generous hearts of this forums members...friendly words of encouragement lead new members and old to the answers they need.I am, along with many others here, fortunate to turn and learn from the advice given freely on LDO.The current thread speaks of mileage and budgets. Many of us sock away funds to take care of the inevitable. Had I not found this forum prior to my LD purchase, I may well have made the mistake so many others have made-Not planning for the future well being/maintenance of my rig. I did not make that mistake.I for one am grateful that I "listened to the wisdom". I may not know much, but I do know where to come for good, solid advice.Thanks,Kent 2 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #13 – August 28, 2016, 05:41:56 pm Quote from: JCT - August 28, 2016, 03:16:29 pm"The V10's have a bad history of exhaust manifold and spark plug problems that can be very expensive..."-----Determining which chassis/engine years may be more prone to developing issues can be very helpful for a person shopping for a used LD. I can't speak to issues with the V-10 exhaust manifold (although I'm aware of one case of the manifold bolts falling out/shearing off in a 2003), but I believe that the V-10 spark plug "blowouts" afflicted models (and not every engine experienced this) with four-thread wells (and inadequately torqued plugs) manufactured before spring 2003. My 2003 has the manufacturing date of May 27, 2003, stamped on the head; it has 8-thread wells, and only one plug was very slightly loose when the plugs were changed at about 87k.Yes they fixed the blow out problem but went to a "2 piece" spark plug which has had it's own set of problems. Ford Spark Plug Stuck in Cylinder Head Is an example of the problem common to the v6,v8 and v10....Been there and done that in a 5.4 V8Andy's "Changes by Year" document (Changes by year) is a good resource to use to determine the timeline of the various power plants (and other chassis information) used in LDs. As ever, YMMV.
Re: What's high mileage Reply #14 – August 28, 2016, 05:50:16 pm Quote from: Garry Foster - August 28, 2016, 05:41:56 pmThe link speaks to only the V8 and three valve engine. If I recall our engines are two valve. So I wonder if they are using the two part plugs in the E450?Jim
Re: What's high mileage Reply #15 – August 28, 2016, 07:45:26 pm Quote from: Jim & Gayle - August 28, 2016, 05:50:16 pmThe link speaks to only the V8 and three valve engine. If I recall our engines are two valve. So I wonder if they are using the two part plugs in the E450?JimJim I don't know. I know there is a 3 valve V10 and it is used in the class A chassis and at least some trucks. But I know they didn't put it in the Cut away for the first few years. So the E450 may well escape that 2 piece plug problem. I do know that the built both motors at the same time for awhile...Garry
Re: What's high mileage Reply #16 – August 28, 2016, 08:19:17 pm Well then...here's a silly question. Why wait? What's wrong with being a bit proactive and have the plugs changed sooner?I know this may hurt the pocket book, but in the long run it is just common sense. And if sooner, how much sooner? 30,000 miles? 50,000? I used to change the plugs in my V Dub every 3,000. Where's the harm? Kent
Re: What's high mileage Reply #17 – August 28, 2016, 11:54:13 pm Well I'm at 215k. I went to put a wrench on the exhaust and the stud just fell off. I found 4 that were broken below the head. It took me 3 days to get them out and install a new header due to the warping. I also knew of threaded inserts in #4 and #ยน0 cylinders. What I didn't know was the quality of the insert in #4 until it blew out a couple of weeks ago. We still love our LD and glad I can do my own maintenance. 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #18 – August 29, 2016, 12:36:24 am Craig- that is some serious shade tree wrenchin! Well done! And 215K miles? Nice. 1 Likes
Re: What's high mileage Reply #19 – August 29, 2016, 07:49:10 am Is that on a V8 or a V10? Dave and Sandy 2014 Mid Bath
Re: What's high mileage Reply #20 – August 29, 2016, 07:56:43 am Craig, Is that a V8 or a V10?Dave and Sandy2014 Mid Bath
Re: What's high mileage Reply #21 – August 29, 2016, 09:01:54 am V10, I forgot some have the v8 as I saw a MB at Mammoth last weekend with a v8 badge. I sometimes wonder if the v8 is easier to work on but like that little extra torque pulling up steep grades.
Re: What's high mileage Reply #22 – August 29, 2016, 09:40:46 am "Why wait? What's wrong with being a bit proactive and have the plugs changed sooner? I know this may hurt the pocket book, but in the long run it is just common sense. "-------Kent, I'm definitely in favor of timely preventive maintenance, but the recommended plug change for the V-10 is at 100k; there's no advantage to doing a plug change at a much lesser mileage unless the change is mechanically advisable. You will have plenty of things to spend cash on without being concerned about a premature plug change! I changed out the plugs in my rig at about 87k only because my rig is a 2003; I knew the chassis manufacture month and year from the sticker on the door jamb, but I didn't know just when Ford had changed the head design from 4-thread wells to 8-thread wells. There were quite a few reports of blown-out plugs from 2003s and earlier model years, and I didn't want to risk a roadside spark plug "pop".As mentioned in a previous post, the engine manufacturing date stamped on the head in my 2003 was May 27, 2003; the spark plug guy (who has done a lot of plug replacements) said that this was the earliest "V-10 with 8-thread wells" date that he had seen. One plug was slightly loose (most likely due to inadequate tightening, as Larry has pointed out), but the wells and plugs were clean; no carboning, no deposits. Based on this experience, it certainly seems that if the V-10 in one's LD was manufactured after the above date, the plugs are sitting in 8-thread wells. (Whether all are properly torqued, I can't say, but I am pretty sure that Ford changed the specs, i.e., increased the amount of recommended torque, when they changed the head.)Unless there are compelling reasons (based on mechanical and tech experience and savvy!) to do otherwise, sticking to the Ford manual's recommendations for fluids, parts, and service intervals is a good practice; this has worked well for me and countless others for many years/miles. Yes, there are additional maintenance points that are not in the Ford manual and maintenance schedules; I posted some of these previously. (Don't recall when, but very likely in this forum or the Tech forum category. The "beyond the maintenance schedule" tips/service points were the result of brain-picking master mechanic Larry's vast and versatile skill set! )Take care of the big pieces and the little pieces, too; a diligently maintained V-10 can last for a very long time!As ever, YMMV.
Re: What's high mileage Reply #23 – August 29, 2016, 10:02:08 am modern engines use a computer to meter gas flow and control the electronic ignition by looking at the ambient air temp and also looks at the exhaust gas composition before and after the cat. There is not a lot of carbon build up like the good old days when you had points and carb that poured gas into the motor. The changes were done in part for cleaner air and gas milage, but a side benefit to all of us are engines that run much longer between "tune ups". The computer even tells you when the engine is not running correctly (known as throwing a code) and attempts to tell you why it is not running properly. I don't have the manual handy but I thing suggest time to change the plugs are around 90 to 100K miles.
Re: What's high mileage Reply #24 – August 29, 2016, 10:03:23 am Joan, is this the posting you refer to? I couldn't think of any adds, perhaps you can? I Bookmarked that thread.
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