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Solar controller or converter problem
We have a 2006 MB equipped with the original HPV-22 solar panel controller and the original Parallax series 7300 converter. When we returned home to Maine after our 7 month winter ramble, I noticed that the HPV-22 was indicating the battery state as 13.3V versus the usual 13.7v (dip switch had been changed years ago to the lower set point voltage). The next day, the battery state had dropped to 12.73v.

Looking at the face of the controller, none of the LEDs are lit (indicating that charging is occurring or , if flashing, that the battery is charged. The MPPT’s LED is also dark). The only display that is working is the battery state display. If I switch to display either the charging amps or the array amps, it reads zero.

I have replaced the 10 amp in-line fuse in the lead that connects the solar to the positive (battery lead) in the converter but without success. The HPV-22 installation manual indicates that there is a 30 amp fuse or circuit breaker between positive side of the house battery and where this lead terminates on the back of the HPV-22. Any ideas where this fuse/breaker is located?

I am open to any suggestions. Note, I don’t know much about electrical matters and also have a fear of heights (no roof work). If the converter has gone bad, can this affect the solar controller? 

Thanks for any help,

Bill
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #1 –
How many panels do you have and are they the AM100 panels that LD was putting on from AM Solar?

It sounds as though you aren't getting anything from the panel. I know from prior experience with a friends LD that the factory installs a fuse in the connection box on the panel. Her fuse failed. I contacted AM Solar and in the discussion they said that there was no need for the fuse in the panel and they didn't know why the LD factory installed one. We bypassed the fuse and it has worked fine since.

Again, this only applies to the AM100 panel. I don't know what the factory is doing now or if they did it on all of the AM100 installs.

Jim
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #2 –
Jim,

It's a single, LD installed, AM100 panel. Tell me more on where the fuse in the connector is located and how one replaces or by-passes it.

Bill
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #3 –
Diagnosing without a voltmeter will be too difficult. You need to check the voltage from the solar panel to the charge controller, accessing that from behind the controller. If nothing there, going up to the junction box on the roof is essential. If there IS voltage though, then it would seem the controller is no-op. Perhaps there is a fuse on the controller itself.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #4 –
The AM100 panel has a junction box on its underside, near one end. It's possible that the LD factory installed a fuse in that j-box. If so, you must lift the panel from the roof to access the box. The way that LD used to (and maybe still does) mount these panels may make that difficult. At this point, I'd suggest calling the factory and talking to Vince. He can give you better answers than we can. Maybe the fuse isn't there, in which case you don't want to go to the trouble of lifting the panel. Vince would know.

By the way, I disagree with AM Solar's claim that no fuse is needed at the panel. Yes, it's said that shorting the outputs of a solar panel won't damage the panel. But what about the wire leading from the panel to the solar controller? If that wire chafes through and shorts at some point (say, on your refrigerator fins, which are sharp and hot), the wire is subjected to four or five amps. With no fuse at the panel end, you could have a dangerously hot wire running through your walls. (Fusing at the controller end does no good in this scenario.)

I know it's common practice not to put fuses at the panels. I myself did it that way for years, and nothing terrible happened. But once I sat down and really thought about it, I realized that it's a good idea to protect any power source with a fuse or breaker, and I now have inline fuses on all my panels. (If you're using modern solar panels that connect using MC4 connectors, Renogy offers inline MC4 female-to-male fuses that just snap into your power lines. Easy.)
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #5 –
Steve,

I took your advice and measured the voltage and current, from the solar panel, at the connection on the back side of the HPV-22. The voltage read 23.2 VDC and 5.8 amps DC. I did these measurements at the  PV (neg and pos) connecting blocks without disconnecting anything from the controller. Should I have disconnected the leads coming from the panel and measured across the leads?

If the method I used is OK these readings suggest that the problem is not at the fusing (if any) at the solar panel but may indeed be the controller itself. Unless I hear to the otherwise about my testing methodology, my next step will be to talk with AM Solar.

Thanks to all you for your suggestions so far. I am open to any additional input, particularly from anybody with electrical skills.

Bill
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #6 –
Bill, not sure how you measured current - if you connected the meter between the wires from the panel with the DMM in current mode, then you are in effect shorting out the panel output. This technique works for single solar panels, but should never be done with other power sources. In any event, it means your panel works, and you can start assessing the charge controller.

If you measured current by disconnecting one wire and inserting the meter in series, then we would have a puzzle. Current drawn would mean the circuit to the converter is complete, i.e. the charge controller is working.

Assuming your measurement was done the first way, then there may be a bad connection somewhere on the charge controller, or a hidden blown fuse. I am unfamiliar with the Heliotrope controllers, so maybe someone else has a suggestion?

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #7 –
After discussion with Ray at AM Solar, it appears that the HPV-22 has died and needs to be replaced.

Based upon how we use the coach (7 continuous months of 99.9% full hook-ups - maybe 4 nights a season of dry camping) , we decided to go with the Blue Sky Sun Charger 30 controller (plus the adapter plate and a temperature sensor). Ray says this an almost direct replacement, using the existing wire runs, for the HPV-22. Order has been placed for this equipment.

Since the existing temperature sensor will not work with the new controller, I'll need to find the existing sensor so the new one can be installed in its place. Any ideas where the "mother ship" hid this?

Thanks,
Bill

Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #8 –
Bill, the temp sensor is in the battery compartment but the wire runs to the back of the HPV22. When I thought our 22b was failing a few months ago this was the part I didn't know how I was going to handle as I didn't know how I was going to run the new wiring from the battery box to the back of the new controller.

Jim
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #9 –
The solar controller will operate without the sensor but will not optimized the charging voltage.
Running a new wire, in a Mid-Bath is a chore.

The sensor's wire runs through the top of the kitchen's overhead cabinets. You will need to pull the microwave to access the area behind it.
On the roof, removed refrigerator vent cover to view where the new wire will come into the refrigerator compartment.
Inside the top cabinet, over the stove, drill a hole in the top, right corner, so that the hole comes out inside the refrigerator compartment, in the empty space near the outside wall.   Measure twice before drilling any holes to prevent accidentally drilling into the refrigerator. 

The wire can be run down the rear, side corner of the refrigerator compartment, encased in a protective plastic cover.
Drill another hole through the bottom of the refrigerator compartment, through which the sensor wire exits the refrigerator compartment and enters into the battery compartment. 
Snaking the wire downtime side of the refrigerator compartment, while avoiding interfering with the hot cooling coils, can be a challenge, make sure it's done correctly.

Install the sensor on the battery, as directed in the manual. Some sensors are placed between the two batteries, other sensors bolt to a battery terminal.
When the wire run has been finalized, to protect the wire, secure it using split plastic covering, clamps and zip-ties.
Seal the new holes, in the refrigerator's compartment with a suitable sealant.

It's also a good time to install to install a battery capacity monitor, since the same wiring run would be used.
Victron BMV-702 Battery Monitor

The alternative is to attempt using the vent pipe, that sits in the left corner, by the sink. to bring the wire down from the overhead cabinet down to floor level. 
It can be a lot more difficult than looks to do pass the wire through and to seal it. It still requires a lot of work.

Next time I do one of these, I will try to get some photos.
Larry
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #10 –
Larry and Jim,

The way that Ray at AM Solar spoke, I was left with the impression that I could use the existing wiring from the HPV-22 to the existing sensor but would just have to replace the sensor itself (Ray suggested that AM Solar has some sort of work around). Right now I'm just trying to locate where in the battery compartment the existing sensor is located. The only wires that I can see (without removing the batteries) terminate on the battery posts. It would be nice if I could locate and "fish mout" the existing sensor without having to wrestle with the batteries (as I age I don't seem to be the young bull I used to be).

Thanks,
Bill
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #11 –
Quote from: Bill Pratt  - 


The way that Ray at AM Solar spoke, I was left with the impression that I could use the existing wiring from the HPV-22 to the existing sensor but would just have to replace the sensor itself
If a sensor wire already exist, great, this eliminates the hard work.
Chop off the old sensor and then replace it with the new one,  soldering the connections for best connectivity.
Every sensor I have looked at uses a thermistor, a heat variable resistor.

Larry 
Larry
2003 23.5' Front Lounge, since new.  Previously 1983 22' Front Lounge.
Tow vehicles  2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon, 2001 Jeep Cherokee
Photo Collection: Lazy Daze
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #12 –
Quote from: Bill Pratt  - 
The only wires that I can see (without removing the batteries) terminate on the battery posts.

It's possible that the temperature compensation sensor is mounted on the battery post (although not electrically connected to it). This is actually the best location for it, since the post is a thick metal rod going into the battery's interior, and thus is more likely to be close to the battery's interior temperature than the plastic battery case. Look for a pod, or possibly a flattened metal tube, with thin wires coming out of it, on one battery post.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #13 –
Quote from: Bill Pratt  - 
Larry and Jim,

The way that Ray at AM Solar spoke, I was left with the impression that I could use the existing wiring from the HPV-22 to the existing sensor but would just have to replace the sensor itself (Ray suggested that AM Solar has some sort of work around). Right now I'm just trying to locate where in the battery compartment the existing sensor is located. The only wires that I can see (without removing the batteries) terminate on the battery posts. It would be nice if I could locate and "fish mout" the existing sensor without having to wrestle with the batteries (as I age I don't seem to be the young bull I used to be).

Thanks,
Bill

When I spoke with them just a few months ago I was considering the Blue Sky 3000i. They then led me to believe, at least with that unit that the sensor and wire were one piece. Maybe the one you are considering is different. I should also add that the first person I spoke to there told me that I could use the same sensor for the new controller. The second person told me I couldn't. Can't recall names.

Jim
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #14 –
If you can determine where the sensor hooks up to the Heliotrope, you should be able to ID the same wire in the battery box. Most likely the new sensor is a thermistor, and they are not polarity sensitive. If it is a thermocouple, that would be an issue, but the Blue Sky lit should have all the needed info. It seems unlikely you would have to run new wires.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #15 –
Quote from: Jim & Gayle  - 
They then led me to believe, at least with that unit that the sensor and wire were one piece.

They are, but you could cut off the sensors and splice the new one to the old wires, as Larry suggested. I would not plan on reusing an old sensor with a new controller of a different brand, because even if the sensors are both thermistor-based, the specs might be different... and using the wrong sensor would mislead the controller about the battery temperature, which could lead to under- or (worse) overcharging.
Andy Baird
2021 Ford Ranger towing 2019 Airstream 19CB
Previously: 1985 LD Twin/King "Gertie"; 2003 LD Midbath "Skylark"
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #16 –
When I spoke with Ray at AM Solar and pointed out that the HPV-22 supposedly had a temperature sensor, he said that there were 3 different types of sensors and that the HPV used a different type than the new controller.

Bill
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #17 –
Steve, Jim, Andy and Larry,

I have additional info on the new Blue Sky Sun Charger 30 Controller.

This controller does indeed require a different temperature sensor than the HPV-22. The owner's manual says that using other than the recommended sensor may damage the controller, void the limited warranty, and may cause charge voltage to become uncontrolled. The use of the battery temperature sensor is optional. If you choose not to use it, , the controller will operate as if battery temperature is 25 Degrees C (77 Degrees F).

The existing sensor is clipped horizontally to the back wall of the battery compartment, about 4 - 5 inches below the buss located on the back wall. The wire to the sensor (looks like its a thermocouple) runs vertically just off the right side of the aforementioned buss. The new sensor appears to be as Andy described in a previous post to this thread - it attaches to any battery post. It looks like if I cut off the old sensor, remove some staples attaching the existing wire to the back wall of the battery compartment to provide some slack then I should be able to splice the new sensor to the existing cabling (can also provide additional slack using some of the new sensors wiring). Unfortunately, I'll probably have to remove a battery to have space to work (hope my back can handle it - not the young bull I used to be).  Larry suggested that I solder these connections but this is beyond my skill level. What negative affect to the temperature compensation will occur if I twist the wires together and use wire nuts?

My last area of concern is whether LD left enough slack, at the HPV-22, to be able to connect to the new controller (connections are on the side of the back plate versus the  bottom of the back plate for the HPV-22).

Thanks to each of you for your help so far. Hopefully, this somewhat lengthy post will be of help to some one else in the future.

Bill

Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #18 –

If you don't feel comfortable with a soldering iron you could use something like these.

Amazon.com : Heat Shrink Solder Sleeve Crimpless Butt Connectors : Sports &...

Amazon link for the forum :D ,I hope I did this correctly.

I would prefer these to a wire nut as corrosion can occur inside a wire nut, causing more resistance and improper thermistor reading.  A hair dryer may not melt the solder and a cheap heat gun would need to be used.

As an Amazon Associate Lazy Daze Owners' Group earns from qualifying purchases.
1997 TK
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #19 –
Bill,

I followed your thread with interest as I'm in roughly the same situation.  I have an old HPV22 which is acting odd (occasional
high voltage readings, and meaningless amperage readings), and I want to replace it with what ever is the easiest replacement unit. 

How did it all work out?  Were you able to just cut the temperature sensor wires and put the new sensor on the end of the
existing wires (while also attaching the old wires to the new solar controller)?  What was involved in fitting the new controller into the space where the old HPV22 was mounted?  Did it just fit, or did you have to do some sawing?

-Mike
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #20 –
Bill,

I followed your thread with interest as I'm in roughly the same situation.  I have an old HPV22 which is acting odd (occasional
high voltage readings, and meaningless amperage readings), and I want to replace it with what ever is the easiest replacement unit. 

How did it all work out?  Were you able to just cut the temperature sensor wires and put the new sensor on the end of the
existing wires (while also attaching the old wires to the new solar controller)?  What was involved in fitting the new controller into the space where the old HPV22 was mounted?  Did it just fit, or did you have to do some sawing?

-Mike
 
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #21 –
Mike,

It worked out fine. I cut off the existing temperature sensor and crimped on the new sensor to the existing wires. The wiring, at the HPV-22, was able to be reused. Lazy Daze actually left enough slack. The existing wiring has fish tail ends at the point of connection to the controller. I cut these off because the new controller uses a compression type of connector. The new controller, which is smaller than the HPV-22, fits into the existing opening without any problem. I bought an adapter plate which covers the existing screw holes and makes for a "clean" installation.

The hardest parts of the installation were removing the heavy batteries to get at the existing temperature setting and the crimping of the new sensor to the existing wiring. The whole process takes less than an hour.

Bill
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #22 –
Quote from: Bill Pratt  - 
Mike,

he hardest parts of the installation were removing the heavy batteries to get at the existing temperature setting and the crimping of the new sensor to the existing wiring. The whole process takes less than an hour.

Bill

Do you mean that you connected the wires to the temp sensor near the batteries?  If so, could you just connect them behind the controller instead? Did you use the new sensor or connect to the old sensor?

Jim
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #23 –
Bill,

Thanks for the reply!  It's good to hear there is an easy to install way to replace the HPV22.  The only remaining concern I have is whether a PWM type controller like the SC30 would work as well as an MPPT controller.  The old HPV22 was an MPPT controller.  My usage pattern is pretty much opposite to yours:  I'm like 95% boon docking and 5% hooked up to power.  Thus, the supposed extra charging capacity of an MPPT controller might be valuable.  On the other hand, something like the Solar Boost 3000i (which is I believe what LD uses currently), may not fit easily into the cabinet.

How has the new controller worked for you when not connected to power?  Can you hear the humming of the pulse width modulation?

-Mike
Re: Solar controller or converter problem
Reply #24 –
No fan of the Heliotrope charge controllers, but the MPPT function WILL get more charge current out of your solar panel than any method that just allows the panel's rated current. This translates to a reduced time in the bulk charge mode.

Steve
2004 FL
2013 Honda Fit