V10 power lacking August 10, 2016, 12:16:45 pm I have searched the files and was surprised I didn't find a discussion of the disappointing power of the the Ford v10.We recently upgraded from a 1992 mid bath with the Ford 460 to a 2004 mid bath with the Ford V10. To say we are underwhelmed with the power of the V10 would be an understatement! So far we have only towed our 18 foot aluminum fishing boat. It's under 3000 lbs. It was only OK. We have towed our Jeep Wrangle with the Ford 460 over the pass into LA and other places with no problem. We haven't towed the Jeep with the V10 yet but we are not optimistic. The V10 seems to do all right at cruising speeds but has little torque at low speeds as when you start up a steep hill from a stop or low speed. The street up to our house takes 1st gear downing the boat. I feel Ford made a mistake. The small gain in mpg is not worth the lack of power to us anyway.We have had a couple people recommend the Gale Banks Power Pack. The reviews online are very mixed. Wondering what other people think. We are not looking for higher mpg but rather more towing power. We are close to retirement and planned to travel with the Jeep. Otherwise we love the larger space provided by the E450.
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #1 – August 10, 2016, 01:27:16 pm Quote from: Elizabeth West-Ownbey - August 10, 2016, 12:16:45 pmI have searched the files and was surprised I didn't find a discussion of the disappointing power of the the Ford v10.We recently upgraded from a 1992 mid bath with the Ford 460 to a 2004 mid bath with the Ford V10. To say we are underwhelmed with the power of the V10 would be an understatement! So far we have only towed our 18 foot aluminum fishing boat. It's under 3000 lbs. It was only OK. We have towed our Jeep Wrangle with the Ford 460 over the pass into LA and other places with no problem. We haven't towed the Jeep with the V10 yet but we are not optimistic. The V10 seems to do all right at cruising speeds but has little torque at low speeds as when you start up a steep hill from a stop or low speed. The street up to our house takes 1st gear downing the boat. I feel Ford made a mistake. The small gain in mpg is not worth the lack of power to us anyway.We have had a couple people recommend the Gale Banks Power Pack. The reviews online are very mixed. Wondering what other people think. We are not looking for higher mpg but rather more towing power. We are close to retirement and planned to travel with the Jeep. Otherwise we love the larger space provided by the E450.More knowledgeable folks will chime in, but I think this is the 1st real "lack of power" complaint I recall about the V10. Have you had it tested to make sure there's nothing wrong? I've been driving our '02, towing a CR-V for many years, and have been generally pleased with power. That said, starting up a steep hill from stopped or at low speed will always challenge the engine.Chris 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #2 – August 10, 2016, 01:31:18 pm "I have searched the files and was surprised I didn't find a discussion of the disappointing power of the the Ford v10."Just my guess: that's probably because most people aren't disappointed. As long as one isn't expecting to climb Wolf Creek Pass at 65 mph, the V10 does a pretty good job hauling seven tons of Lazy Daze (plus toad). As for the Banks kit, I had the works installed about five years ago, and it made little noticeable difference in power. If I had it to do over again, I'd save my money. If the problem is inadequate torque at low speeds, the GearVendors under/overdrive would probably be a better investment.
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #3 – August 10, 2016, 02:14:04 pm Another option might be to put a different ratio rear end in to give you the grunt you want.However, you will lose mpg, top end speed and have higher revs along with more noise.I have a 96, the last year for the venerable 460. I like it but the 8 mpg is not very fun.
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #4 – August 10, 2016, 03:49:26 pm Not trying to be a SOB (the more common definition - not Some Other Box) but I will mention the following just in case you are not aware. The 460 was made to get its power at lower RPM. The V10 is made to rev. Are you letting it climb through the RPMs? Just a thought. If yes, you may have an issue. Might be time to put a scan gauge on the yours. 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #5 – August 10, 2016, 04:23:50 pm The V10 and the 460 are very different engines.The 460 is a old, push rod engine, designed for lower RPM operation. In the RV edition, it produces around 245-HP and 400-FT/LB of torque. A common problem, when used in RVs or for towing, was warped exhaust manifolds.The V10 is a much newer design and has overhead cams, for high RPM operation. Early 1997-1999 V10s produced 265-HP, increasing to 305-HP and 420-FY/LB, in 2000.The 265-HP V10s respond very well to the Bank's treatment. The 305-HP V10s incorporates similar improvements to up its horsepower, limiting the benefits of adding a Bank's kit.I often hear and read how many folks refuse to run the V10s at higher RPMs, based on habits formed decades ago when engines were designed for low RPM operation. The times have changed and engines today use a much wider RPM range.When climbing long grades, running at 3800-4000 RPMs is perfectly acceptable. Ford's engineers set the computer to allow the engine to run continuously at over 4500-RPM, I would assume they know what they are doing and would not allow the engine to run at damaging speeds. Remember, the E450 was designed as a commercial vehicle, one made to be beat daily by uncaring drivers.If your V10 doesn't meet and exceed the performance of your previous 460, assuming it was stock, there may be something wrong with your V10. A modified 460 is capable of producing a lot more power, in return for a shortened life.Larry 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #6 – August 10, 2016, 05:18:11 pm Sometimes power problems mean fuel injectors are getting clogged. This is particularly likely if you habitually use the cheapest "no-name" gasoline which do not have a "detergent" additive.If so, get a couple bottles of Techron (made by Chevron) and put them in your full gas tank. By the time you go through half the tank, you'll feel a difference. 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #7 – August 10, 2016, 08:18:49 pm Bear in mind too, your '04 weighs almost 1500 lb more than your '92.Steve 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #8 – August 10, 2016, 09:57:26 pm Thanks for all the comments. I'm certain we wouldn't be disappointed with the V10 if we didn't have the 460 to compare to! I am wondering if the husband is not revving the engine high enough. He has the typical male problem of always wanting to drive! Before we sold the old one I did drive around town and even then noticed the difference.We use top tier gas but we've only had it three months and have no idea what went on before. Our mechanic did go over it and didn't find anything. It does have a K&N air filter which I know can be a problem.I appreciate knowing that the Banks system doesn't do as much for the second generation v10 as for the first. Andy and Larry, I think you just saved us a barrel of money!Lisa 2 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #9 – August 11, 2016, 12:21:26 am Climbing under load isn't about speed, it's about efficiency. On any given trip, even in the west, you typically spend a very small amount of time climbing steep grades, so climbing speed makes very little difference in the overall duration of your trip. Your best climbing will be accomplished with the engine at peak torque RPM in any given gear.The peak torque RPM for the 2004 E-450 V-10 is 3250 RPM. That's where the engine will be "happiest" while climbing. As an example, in my 2003 (the same specs as your 2004), that equates to 23 mph in first gear, 40 mph in second gear and 62 mph in third gear.As I approach any significant grade I first turn the overdrive off, leaving the LD in third gear. If I can't hold 62 mph in third gear, I let the speed drift down to about 40 mph, place the transmission in second gear and simply stay in that gear at that speed until the climb is over, usually no more than a few minutes. If the transmission downshifts sooner, say at 45 mph, I then move the gear selector to 2nd and leave it there, slow to 40 and complete the climb.If I can't hold 40 mph in 2nd gear I again let the speed drift down, to about 23 mph, and select 1st gear.In any event, I climb at a steady speed with no shifting, as close to peak torque RPM as possible. This means that the entire drivetrain settles into a steady state where the most torque is produced, for the duration of the climb, for the least mechanical stress.There is too much emphasis in the RV community on the speed at which a vehicle will "pull" some grade. Sort of like low 0-60 times and high top speed in the sports car community, neither of which have much practical value on the road.You're used to an engine which climbs best at lower RPMs. Get used to the higher RPMs of the V-10 and I think you will find it equivalent or better. It can be a bit nerve wracking at first, as things will sound very busy, but the V-10 is designed for that and will handle it fine.TerryGardnerville, NV2003 26.5' RB, always towing a Wrangler, mostly around the back roads of the west. 4 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #10 – August 11, 2016, 02:25:26 am I get the idea some folks have added a tachometer. Is that usefull? Terry's climing speeds for various steepnes and gear sound the same as what I would do though.
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #11 – August 11, 2016, 02:51:38 am I have an 05 MB with "the full" Banks Power Pack. In climbing a specific hill prior to install I would top out at 55 mph. After installing the Banks I can reach 70 mph and easily hold that speed on the same grade. Also, in a rolling side by side start, I handily walk away from my friend's Big Foot motorhome, easily out accelerating him by at least 10 mph - this wasn't a very good test, though his was an '04 and similar weight, as we didn't do any "before" comparisons for a baseline. While the Banks kit sure won't push you back in the seat, I can feel the difference in power. Worth it? That's more debatable, but I'm not sorry I made the purchase.bumper 2 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #12 – August 11, 2016, 09:25:41 am Quote from: Terry Burnes - August 11, 2016, 12:21:26 amThe peak torque RPM for the 2004 E-450 V-10 is 3250 RPM. That's where the engine will be "happiest" while climbing. As an example, in my 2003 (the same specs as your 2004), that equates to 23 mph in first gear, 40 mph in second gear and 62 mph in third gear.Are there any engineering reasons for thinking the engine will be "happiest" climbing at the torque peak rpm? If you aren't at full throttle, does it matter that you are at the rpm that full throttle would give you full torque? I'm not suggesting you choices of rpm are poor ones, just wondering where the justification came from Frankly, I just go by noise, which worked out to 3200 rpm in my 1998 unit, and about 3600 in my 2004 unit, which has better sound insulation. Both are way below the engine red line. And if I want to go faster up the hill, I push down on the gas pedal, and let the transmission select the gear needed to provide the necessary torque at the wheels - that's the only torque that matters. 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #13 – August 11, 2016, 03:08:44 pm Thx for such an educational--& understandable--discussion. Even though it was below the red line, I felt awfully antsy climbing up to the Eisenhower Tunnel when I went to Ladeze in Moab last year (Kansas did not prepare me for the engine noises I was hearing). This discussion will help when I head to Ladeze in Idaho this year. Thx, again. 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #14 – August 12, 2016, 04:26:23 am Quote from: Jay Carlson - August 11, 2016, 02:25:26 amI get the idea some folks have added a tachometer. Is that usefull? Terry's climing speeds for various steepnes and gear sound the same as what I would do though.LD models included a tach from 2004 up. Or, you can plug a ScanGauge into the OBDII port under the dash.Steve
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #15 – August 12, 2016, 08:06:29 am I have always considered maximum power at the point where HP and torque lines cross. I have not looked at the V-10 charts recently, but I believe it is somewhere between 3500 and 3600 RPM.
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #16 – August 12, 2016, 05:00:51 pm I've been finding this thread very interesting. Owning a 30' 2004 and entering the wonderful mountains of northern New Mexico has been my first experience driving such a big vehicle in an area that I now find myself in. Thus far, no big issues that I am aware of, but I do have a question; Does the V-10 engine/transmission have a Rev limiter? Often times, when climbing up an incline, I sometimes get a very high pitch whine. I simply let off the peddle a bit and it quits and I keep climbing up without issues. I just wanna be sure that this isn't a cause to worry.Thanks!Bud & Barbara (in NM.. still)
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #17 – August 12, 2016, 05:41:56 pm Bud, is your transmission is shifting as it should? How does the coolant temperature read? Is it getting warm? It is possible you are hearing the cooling fan clutch engage.
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #18 – August 12, 2016, 06:18:20 pm That is the extra hamster spinning the the hill climb treadmill. (Just kidding). 1 Likes
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #19 – August 12, 2016, 08:21:23 pm I suspect that high pitch whine is the auxiliary transmission cooler kicking in. It does make enough noise to get your attention and if you have the scan gauge you will notice the transmission temperature dropping quickly. I used to hear it regularly as I towed our CR-V over the Colorado mountain passes.Monti
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #20 – August 14, 2016, 09:35:02 am Quote from: Ross and Beverly Taylor - August 12, 2016, 08:06:29 amI have always considered maximum power at the point where HP and torque lines cross. I have not looked at the V-10 charts recently, but I believe it is somewhere between 3500 and 3600 RPM. The maximum horsepower occurs where the hp peaks on the power/rpm chart. "Where the lines cross" depends entirely on how the vertical scales are chosen for the graph, not the engine. Here's an illustration for the V10:Gear Vendors Under/Overdrive Ford Horsepower and Torque Curves.It shows the lines crossing at 2200 rpm. Not a good choice for hill-climbing :^)
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #21 – August 14, 2016, 10:00:39 am Quote from: Eric Greenwell - August 14, 2016, 09:35:02 amGear Vendors Under/Overdrive Ford Horsepower and Torque Curves.It shows the lines crossing at 2200 rpm. Not a good choice for hill-climbing :^)The Gear Vendor's chart shows the power curve for a first generation V10, which only produced 265-HP. It shows the peak torque at around 3000-RPM.We are most interested in the top of the torque curve. Peak torque, in the second generation V10 is at about 3200RPM and remains strong into the 4000-RPM range. This is the range for use when climbing or descending steep grades.Larry
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #22 – August 14, 2016, 02:09:42 pm Quote from: paul banbury - August 12, 2016, 05:41:56 pmBud, is your transmission is shifting as it should? How does the coolant temperature read? Is it getting warm? It is possible you are hearing the cooling fan clutch engage. YEs, transmission seams to shift just fine. No hesitation or rough shifting and the temp gage is fine. Thanks!
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #23 – August 14, 2016, 02:10:50 pm Quote from: Monti - August 12, 2016, 08:21:23 pmI suspect that high pitch whine is the auxiliary transmission cooler kicking in. It does make enough noise to get your attention and if you have the scan gauge you will notice the transmission temperature dropping quickly. I used to hear it regularly as I towed our CR-V over the Colorado mountain passes.MontiThanks Monti. That puts my mind at ease. Appreciate the response!
Re: V10 power lacking Reply #24 – August 15, 2016, 02:39:40 am [/quote]Quote from: Monti - August 12, 2016, 08:21:23 pmI suspect that high pitch whine is the auxiliary transmission cooler kicking in. It does make enough noise to get your attention and if you have the scan gauge you will notice the transmission temperature dropping quickly. I used to hear it regularly as I towed our CR-V over the Colorado mountain passesYou are hearing the radiator fan clutch engaging and disengaging. The fan cutch is viscous coupling that engages as the air exiting the rear of the radiator heats up. When the air cools, the clutch slowly disengages. Sounds like a small jet engine under the hood and you can feel the available power drop, caused by the power used by the fan. It uses a lot of power and does a good job of keeping the coolant temps in a safe range.The transmission does have an internal thermostat that prevents oil from flowing through the radiator and transmission cooler until it reaches around 180 degree but it is silent.Larry
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