Lazy Daze Owners' Group

Hi All,
Was just curious about my solar panels and if anyone knows the technical specs on them. The LD is a 1999 RB 26.5, I purchased her in the spring of 2021 (the family loves her and so do I) and changed the charge controller to a BlueSky 3000i due to an issue with the old charge controller. The output of the panels (or possibly one panel? maybe one doesn't work anymore?) seems to be enough for us based on the things we use it for, but I have been thinking about upgrading parts of the solar system if it will be as easy as changing the charge controller was. I was curious if any of you have any information on these specific panels and what size they would be. The BP panel seems to be from the original LD build, I'm not sure when the Shell solar panel was added. What is the best (and least cumbersome) way of determining the output of one or both of the panels? If I wanted to purchase a new panel, is it easy to take one off and put another in it's place? I've been doing some research but am having trouble with these specific questions.
Thanks in advance for your time and knowledge, attached are some pics,
John

Our 2003 LD had 85 watt BP panels.

Larry

Thanks Larry, that was the kind of information I was looking for, typical panel installation on rigs close to the age of mine. Did you have two panels on your 2003? I was curious on ours if maybe one BP panel was switched out for the Shell panel, or if the Shell panel was added later.

If your old charge controller was a Heliotrope, that is a factory install. Standard was a single panel, with a second optional. However, the original panel would be 24 years old, so performance would be reduced considerably. I would recommend you replace both, as current models are more efficient and much cheaper. For a self-install, Home Depot has decent prices on 100W or so models, as does Amazon.

Steve

"Was just curious about my solar panels..."

Your forth IMG #8723 is of German manufacture! "5 Flachglas AG" can be Googled but unless you read Deutsch it probably won't be of much use.  :D I imagine that the manuf. supplys many users.

But perhaps it will give you a lead for further research.  ::)

Thanks Steve; ya I was thinking the same thing, a 24 year old panel has got to be producing minimal output at this point right? And it looks kinda funky too, like the sun has really beaten it down. For replacing a panel, is it pretty much a plug and play type operation? Have you done it before? Are the connectors universal? Unplug the old one, plug the new one in and mount it? We are leaving on a 3 week trip on June 9th, so I'm a little hesitant to change anything before we go, but if it is really just a simple job I may be persuaded to jump in. It would be nice to have some new panels.
Thanks Lazy Bones, I actually looked that up first, didn't have much luck, but I didn't dive deep enough to see if I was getting a bunch of German hits. That fourth image is of a corner of the BP panel. I was hoping looking that up would lead me to the exact panel specs but it didn't seem it was that easy, but I'll try again and see if I can dig a little deeper.

It's unlikely the new panels will line up to the old hardware, and most current models do use a standard connector arrangement, but you would have to purchase compatible mating connectors and splice them in. However you would likely want to upgrade the wiring from roof to the Blue Sky controller to take full advantage of the increased current. In addition, if the PO had not installed a 'battery monitor' such as the Victron BMV 700 series, this is also recommended. As such, I would not rush into this on a time-dependent schedule if your existing system is adequate for you at this time.

If you can disconnect your panels from the roof physically and electrically, you can test for short-circuit current by aiming directly to the sun on a clear day while connecting an ammeter (at least 10 Amp range) from the positive to the negative terminal. Then connect a voltmeter from the positive to the negative terminal to get the open-circuit voltage. These two specs are among those listed for other panels, and by comparing, you can get an idea of how yours are performing, and what improvement new panels would give you.

Steve

Steve

Thanks Steve, that makes sense; I was hoping I could find something where I wouldn't have to change the hardware but I can see that's probably a pipe dream. I think I will take your advice and hold off on this project until we get back from our trip.
I did actually install a battery monitor a few months back, cheaper version, not the Victron, but it seems to be working pretty good so far. Got a project box off Amazon and put the 12 volt and antenna connectors together with it and mounted it on the wall between the windows. Here's a pic of it.
Thanks for the help and info on this,
John

Hi John;  I just went through this with my '99 TK.  The PV panels I had were older than '99 but still in bubble wrap, never used. I got them at a great discount, they were still available for $479 each in retail stores.(In 1999) 48 watt, monocrystaline, 36 cell. About 14% efficiency.  With advanced age the rubber seals were leaking, and water and dirt intrusion had reduced the outputs. Time for a better built, higher efficiency panels.
   The German glass on your panel, is just the glass. The panels were BP. 'Beyond Petroleum' and the company went out of business around 2011.  The Shell panel is no longer made either.
   I put in Renogy 100 watt panels. 4 at $100 each, (and a 50 watt, 1/2 size next to the passenger side escape hatch).
Amazon.com : Renogy Solar Panel 100 Watt 12 Volt, High-Efficiency Monocrystal... (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Monocrystalline-Solar-Compact-Design/dp/B07GF5JY35/ref=sr_1_1?hvadid=580601573700&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9031352&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=17648387664849459740&hvtargid=kwd-331623970924&hydadcr=307_1014978882&keywords=renogy%2B12v%2Bsolar%2Bpanel&qid=1684890674&sr=8-1&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.006c50ae-5d4c-4777-9bc0-4513d670b6bc&th=1)  The description lists 18% efficiency.  They are much better made than my old panels. Lighter weight even with the higher wattage.  Now the Amazon price is $90. (it changes).  They come with standard MC4 connectors.  Stainless 'Z' brackets would be good.
    While I bought the corresponding connectors. I am re-routing some cabling, and I'm going to cut out the connectors entirely, and just solder the ends together with the 10 ga. wire I used.  I used wire loom under the panels and Bell boxes with 1/2" Liquatite 1/2" conduit. Joined up with multiple #6 wire down leads through the refrigerator vent. Your floorplan may do better with different routing. (Someone with an RB?)
   You have a good solar controller there. I used a SB3000i also.  I reprogrammed it for the higher voltage LiF batteries. That feature can wait until you go Lithium.    RonB

Hi Ron! Thanks for the response, always appreciate your advice sir. I checked out the panels on that link, I think I will definitely go with at least a pair of these. As far as installing them on the roof, is there anything special I need to know? Or a good thread you can point me to on here that walks thru a best practices approach to it? I’m very hesitant to go drilling into the roof without a good guide on exactly how to do it. I assume it’s simpler than I think but I just would hate to do something wrong just because I didn’t find the right info before I started. Also sounds like you have 450 watts on your roof, I’m probably mistaken but I thought the SB3000i could only handle 400 watts max? Is 450 the true max or can it go even higher? Thanks for all the detailed info!

Larry Wade has 560 Watts on the SB3000i.  It will dissipate anything it can't use (within reason).  Those ratings for Watt output are highly optimistic in general.  Governed by rules for equal testing.  Off angle insolation, dirt on the panels, dirty air and clouds, shadows, etc. all reduce the actual output.  As Larry said, and I agree, the max solar panels are for the days in winter when when you need all the power you can get. Short days, rainy and/or cloudy with more tree cover, when you are inside using more heat, lighting, computer, and so on; make the extra bit of power a plus.  I really don't like running the generator either.
    The higher voltage requirement of the Lithium batteries, reduces the amount of current available from the MPPT controller.  Watts is Watts.
     The 'Z' brackets don't have much contact surface on the roof.  You tube has lots of potential ways of mounting. Usually a pad of double sided tape (3M VHB), one short screw per foot and sealant over the top of that.  One member here is using aluminum 'unistrut' rails screwed into roof rafters, with movable mounting brackets to accommodate future modifications. The struts add stiffness and lift the panels up off the roof to get ventilation under them.  I believe he is going an even Kilowatt, with massive LiF battery capacity. Way past the capability of the SB3000i.  RonB

For what it's worth (nothing, as far as this topic goes 😉) "Flachglas" is sheet glass, and "AG" is short for Aktiengesellchaft, which means corporation. In other words, it's the equivalent of our "Inc." You'll see that at the end of a lot of German company names, such as Volkswagen AG. The other one you'll see is "GmbH," which stands for "Gesellschaft mit beschränkte Haftung," or "Company with limited liability"--similar to our LLC.

"It will dissipate anything it can't use"

And will run correspondingly hot--that energy has to go somewhere. It isn't likely to start any fires, but heat isn't good for electronics. But with that said, feeding 450 watts of panels into a 400 watt rated controller is probably OK, because most of the time those panels won't be putting out their full rated wattage. Just don't be surprised if the front panel gets warm to the touch on sunny days. 🙂 I experienced that with a Heliotrope HPV-30 controller in my first LD, when I hooked up way too many panels to it.

"For what it's worth (nothing, as far as this topic goes 😉) "Flachglas" is sheet glass, and "AG" is short for Aktiengesellchaft, which means corporation..."

Thanks for that detailed explanation Andy! You saved me a lot of time and effort, I was not about to go into such depth even though I had the knowledge tucked away in my cobweb mind.  ::)

Thanks Ron, I actually was looking thru the threads this morning and found people discussing the VHB tape (I had no idea you could do that, very intersting) and found that guys video on the unistrut thing (seems like its overdone, but still very cool). I also found someone saying not to screw into the thicker cross beam type wood, and that just going down into the plywood should do the trick and is the proper way to handle it (if I don't use the VHB tape I guess). And it makes sense what you and ANDY are saying about the extra panels on the 3000i not really being a problem. I think something in the neighborhood of 200 watts should be plenty for us, but maybe I'll do more, we shall see.
STEVE above mentioned upgrading the wiring possibly; honestly that sounds like it will make the job a bit more involved (maybe it's easy and just sounds hard?), do you guys think I can get away with the old wires? I don't want to do anything dangerous of course, but less efficient for a trade off to an easier job would be ok in my mind. I could always change out the wiring later too.

These guys are your best help, but just FYI --
The wiring for solar was a huge discussion on the forum at the time I had mine installed ten years ago.  Therefore I insisted on six-gauge wire (not cheap) so I'd never have to change it to upgrade anything.  The Blue Sky SB3000i controller that was installed at the same time has been great.  In fact, I usually don't plug in to AC.
Kristin

Hi All.

I just upgraded my solar on my 2000 LD. The original owner had solar  installed by the factory. My BP Solar was only producing 3.5 watts at maximum. I took that off the roof and patched the holes. I installed 2 x 100 watt Rich Solar panels and attached them using plastic feet,HTTP://www.amazon.com/stores/CMYYANGLIN/page/562CBC13-1BD9-4755-854D-1AB95DE0A0CF?ref_=ast_bln. I also used VHB tape on the feet and then once on the roof and secure covered with Lap Seal Self-Leveling sealant. Very strong bond. AM Solar also uses their feet but I found expensive, like $80 a panel, and VHB tape. They have a video on their website showing it. The connections are MC4 so I added the BougeRV MC4 branch Y connectors also from Amazon to make the wiring connection to the solar panels.  I also changed the Heliotrope controller to the Blue Sky 3000I controller. I am using 2 SOK 100watt Lithium batteries. Everything worked well at the start of the trip but due to really bad roads I had the battery wire at the solar controller come loose, once I fixed that the solar controller did not work. Since I was on my way to the PNW I called AM Solar and they fit me in, they found I had blown a fuse and they checked the rest of my connections. I was on my way in 1 1/2 hours. They are a tremendous group to work with. They will work on my inverter on my return back to AZ as that is not working as well. I loved a lot of money on installing by myself that I can afford to have them fix my mistakes. I also got a lot of help from this group which gave me the confidence to tackle this project. Thank you.

Awesome, thanks for all that info KEVIN, much appreciated sir! Very helpful for what I'll be undertaking soon. I assume you had to splice in that Bouge RV Mc4 branch Y right? On my 1999 BP solar panel it looks like an old school connection. Pretty simple to add that Mc4 branch in?

I disconnected the wire going to the old solar panel and added the MC4 connectors to the wires coming from the solar controller on the roof, similar to this Amazon.com: BougeRV 12 PCS Solar Connectors with Spanners Solar Panel Cable... (http://www.amazon.com/BougeRV-Pairs-Solar-Connectors-Female/dp/B073TX1N5Q/ref=sr_1_3?crid=LH8NF5CZCZS4&keywords=mc4+connector&qid=1685195402&sprefix=mc4%2Caps%2C196&sr=8-3). The Y connectors were used to connect the two solar panels to the just completed roof wire connectors. There are many video on YouTube showing how to make the MC4 connectors to the roof wires. I am not an expert but the help on this form and YouTube really helped. The advantage of MC4 connectors is that you can disconnect them on the roof if you have to service the solar controller, which I had to do.

Hope that this helps.

Kevin

Thanks KEVIN, helps a ton bro. I looked up a bunch of stuff on YouTube right after posting the question for ya, watched a bunch of videos describing what looks like the whole process you did. :D

Another question for everyone else, I looked up amps in relation to solar panel watts, and it looks like around 8 amps is what you get out of 100 watts. I was checking out my 3000i (its been pretty cloudy around here the past few days, but we had the sun break through a bit) and trying to watch the amps come in to see if I could judge how much the panels on the roof are putting out. It was hovering in the 3-5 amp range a lot, but at one point it hit 7.8 (maybe that was a fluke?). Am I right in assuming that if I see that many amps coming in then the panels up top must be giving me close to 100 watts? When we leave on our 3.5 week trip to NC in a few days I wanted to watch things and see just how much solar we actually need, and this will be the first long trip out with the new battery monitor install too so I should be able to get a good read on things. 100 watts may be plenty for us. We are doing a mix of campsites with hookups and boondocking with nothing so it should be a good test.
Thanks!
John

The 7.8 A reading is close to best case. Having the sun 25 degrees off of directly overhead would reduce the effective wattage to 90 W. The higher current might be in bulk absorption mode, and the lower current in float mode.

Am I right in assuming that if I see that many amps coming in then the panels up top must be giving me close to 100 watts?

Quote

You will never see the rated power out of the panels for several reasons:
1) The panels are rated under lab conditions of 1 sun at about 70 degrees F. That luminance is found at high noon at the equator, not at these latitudes, and not only are they likely to be at higher than 70 F air, but at about 20% efficient with an anti-reflection coating, that means 80% of the absorbed energy is converted to heat - they get hot!
2) Highest available power is obtained when mounted at right angles to the direction of the sun - not flat on the roof. I.e, you are not intercepting as much solar energy.
The way panels are rated is not a scam - reproducible conditions are necessary in order to compare products, so rating actual power in the U.S. mounted on flat roofs is NOT the data provided with your panels. For instance, the panels on my home are on a roof canted at 20 degrees to the horizontal. Max power is achieved sometime in April, though due to shorter days, maximum daily energy is during the summer.

Steve

I was checking out my 3000i (its been pretty cloudy around here the past few days, but we had the sun break through a bit) and trying to watch the amps come in to see if I could judge how much the panels on the roof are putting out.
John

Your Blue Sky is an MPPT unit, which tracks the maximum power point of the panels' production. If the panel is putting out 18 Volts at 4 Amps, that is 72 Watts. If the Blue Sky is outputting 13.5V to the batteries, the current will be 5.3 Amps, because of its MPPT conversion. The output current you read is NOT the panel output, but the Blue Sky output to the batteries and accessories. Although there is some small conversion inefficiency, it is a pretty close approximation of the current output power of your panels to multiply the battery voltage by the output current of the Blue Sky. If the batteries are nearing full charge, they won't accept the full current, but you can turn on stuff to increase the current flow until the voltage starts to drop, and measure the voltage and current at that point.

Steve

To expand on what others have said: the only accurate way to judge a panel's output is in watts, as shown by your solar controller. Amps alone don't tell you, because they are dependent upon the panel's output voltage, and output voltages vary. For example, I have some old AM Solar 100 W panels that are rated 4.54 amps at 21.5 volts; and I have some Renogy Eclipse 100 W panels that are rated 5.7 amps at 17.7 volts. Both panels put out exactly the same amount of power--100 watts--but at substantially different amperages.

I have panels sitting around from various projects that are rated anywhere from 17.7 volts (Renogy Eclipse) to 29.4 volts (Sunpower). Obviously if I compared amps out, I'd be mislead. You can't judge by amps alone. (Or volts alone, although I don't see people making that mistake.) You have to look at watts.

"You will never see the rated power out of the panels."

I've said that myself many times, and it's true more often than not, but there are exceptions. I recently mounted two Renogy Eclipse 100 W panels and two Zamp 90 W panels on my 19' Airstream. (The odd mix was because that was the only way I could fit the maximum amount of power on a small and crowded roof.) So, total rated output: 380 watts. But I've seen as much as 420 watts from this setup at noon on a sunny day in late May. In other words, at least some of these panels are over-performing. (I've heard that many Zamp panels do that, and I've seen a panel exceed its rated output power in at least one other case: a Zamp 190 W panel.)

So it is possible for a panel to beat its ratings... but it's not common. In my experience, you can typically expect to see 85% to 90% of rated output (in watts) at best, and less than that much of the time.

Older solar panels.
I have been wanting to test my panels. You always hear how they age out and don't put out like they used to after a while. I think they are original, from 1999.  We just got back from a two week trip and 7 nights was at a Harvest Host (dry camping). Our panels seemed to keep up with our light and fan usage. Of course the two trojan batteries were fully charged from the 5+ hours of driving.  I need to read up on what voltage I should be getting when in sunlight. For now they do the trick.

If your charge controller is the Heliotrope RV30, 30 Amp non-MPPT controller, the output voltage will only tell you the battery voltage. You need to monitor the voltage at the INPUT side of the controller, and multiply that times the current to get the power output of the panel mounted on the roof. Maximize the current drawn by turning on lights and fans until the voltage drops to less than 13 Volts before measuring the current.

There are three types of charge controllers:

1) Shunt controllers simply connect the panels to the batteries and allow the batteries to drop the panel voltage when the panels cannot supply the current the batteries will accept. When the battery voltage rises above about 14.3V, the controller shuts off until the battery voltage falls - which is quickly - and then turns back on - and off - and on.... Not common any more.

2) PWM controllers, pulse-width-modulation, such as the RV30. These switch the output of the panels on and off very rapidly to control the output voltage, once the panels put out more power than the rig and batteries can use. At that point the output voltage remains constant, so no light flickering, etc. More sophisticated than shunts, but maximum current is limited by the spec of the panels.

3) MPPT controllers, maximum-power-point-tracking. These controllers do a power conversion using PWM technology with a transformer to allow the panels to deliver their maximum potential power. The output Amps delivered is actually higher with this type of controller than what is coming from the panels, when the demand is there, charging the batteries faster.

Steve

The output current you read is NOT the panel output, but the Blue Sky output to the batteries and accessories. Although there is some small conversion inefficiency, it is a pretty close approximation of the current output power of your panels

Thanks all, I think I understand what you guys are saying, I had to read all the posts twice but I'm pretty sure I get the watt/amp/volt relationship now, and how the controller changes things too. Question regarding the above quote from STEVE; on the 3000i you can read the "amps in" and "amps out" on the dial when you scroll through all the display points. I understand how you say the controller changes things because it is feeding the volts necessary to the battery so the amps have to go up, but are you saying the "amps in" reading is already adjusted for the volts necessary to go to the battery? Even though it says "amps in" (meaning amps in from panels right?) it really is just an amps in reading based on the adjusted voltage, not a true amps in reading? If that is the case why does it read that way? If you have a display for amps in and amps out, what would be the reason for not showing true amps in and then adjusted amps out?
Thanks for the education guys, I promise I'm watching videos while talking to you all too; trying to understand all aspects before I start on the project.
John

Hi John;  The SB3000i tracks the best power point dynamically. Many times per second.  The 'Amps in' is what it is receiving from the panels. The 'Amps out' is what is going into the batteries. The difference, minus some power to run the controller, and some conversion loss, is to show you what the gain in power is, due to the MPPT feature. A bit of advertising there I think.  One trick is that early dawn, before the panels are even putting out 11 volts, you can have current being put in to the 12 volt batteries. It takes about 12 volts to put current into lead acids at 10 volts.  LiF batteries take higher voltages but because of their low impedance (willingness to accept current) just a little bit of higher voltage allow current to flow into the LiF batteries.  MPPT is a small extra cost that will provide dividends in extra power generated and saved.  RonB

"what would be the reason for not showing true amps in and then adjusted amps out?"

That's exactly what it does. The "amps in" reading is just that: the amperage from the panel, at whatever voltage it's putting out. And "amps out" is what's going into the battery, at the voltage it wants to see for charging.

Let's say (assuming lots of sunshine) that it's a 100 W panel putting out 5.5 amps at 18 volts. That's a fairly common spec. So the "amps in" reading will be 5.5. The MPPT controller converts that into 7 amps at 14.3 V--higher amperage but lower voltage--in order to bulk-charge your batteries. So the "amps out" reading will be 7.0.

As Ron said, it's not strictly necessary to show amps in from the panels, since all you really care about is what's going into the batteries. But it's always nice to see that the MPPT circuitry is doing its job. MPPT used to be a deluxe, extra-cost feature, but now it's so widespread (I've seen it in $40 controllers) that it's not worth considering anything else. From what I and others have seen, MPPT can get 10%–30% more power from a given solar array than either a shunt or PWM controller.

Awesome, thanks guys, I must have misunderstood what STEVE was saying in his post, but it looks like I had the right idea on the "amps in" and "amps out" reading. Looks like I got a cool job to undertake when we get back from our trip. Heading out to NC for a week with friends, do some sight seeing on the way there and the way back; new brakes, new tires, and gonna do some solar tracking with the cool new battery monitor to figure out just how many watts we really need on the rig. Thanks everybody for all the help, you rock!

Solar guidance,
94-TK 22.6 length.
Thinking about adding a solar panel from Rich Solar to my Daze. Panel info- One - 250W panel with a Victron Charge controller - MPPT 100 /30
The Rich panel size is L 62 x W 36
I will attach between the escape hatch & AC unit. I have a few inches of space  bathroom skylight and the placement and panel. 
The 22.6 does not have space on the roof for more panels considering space.
I suppose if there is a 14” x 20’ solar panel that could possible fit on the passenger side of the Daze.

My daze has 2 GC2 Interstate batteries.
 Question, what are the different ways to get the cables to the batteries considering my layout.
Oh, I do not have a generator.  I do have a BLUETTI for the eBike, phones etc..
Thank you for your comments in advance. I do plan on purchasing a new cigarette lighter inverter for the TV.

Hi Chris;  I have a '99 TK on the Ford E350 chassis.  Your roof should be pretty close to the same dimensions as mine with just the shorter 'snout' of the GM chassis accounting for the shorter overall length of the rig. Mine is 23.5'.
   I put three  100 watt Renogy panels between the roof vent and A/C unit. As far over to the passenger side edge as possible, and lifted up to minimize shading from the escape hatch and A/C unit. ( and also the whip CB antenna, and radio antenna).  That Renogy panel also comes in a 1/2, 50 watt size, and it is next to the escape hatch on the passenger side. Another 100 w panel is prewired for behind the refrigerator vent along side the A/C unit. 4" stand up there to be at the same level as the railing/ladder. (panel not installed yet).
   I ran the wiring using a 'J' box through the side of the refrigerator vent on the forward inside edge. Down through the refrigerator area, close to the boiler tube. Stay as far from that as possible, it gets hot!  Down through that 'fridge floor and into the battery compartment area. 
   With no generator, is there anything else there? Storage compartment?
   I ran a flex conduit through the floor inboard of the battery box, but inside the vanity cabinet. Behind, inboard of the step, underneath the rig to the forward side of the coach door step well area, and back up into the space aft of the side cab door. That may be Ford specific.  I put my Solar Boost 2000 in the wall at about 4 feet up, which provides good visibility from the kitchen and driver side couch.  The controller was later upgraded to to a SolarBoost 3000i (Thanks Kent!) to handle more current when I went from my original 11% efficient panels (148w 3 panel) to the Renogy 22% efficiency 3 (300w) panel upgrade.  There was enough depth at that location and empty space to accommodate wiring and air cooling. As part of that I recessed the fire extinguisher into the wall, and used that hole (extinguisher insert removed) to work on the conduit/wiring. I used 8AWG at the time 23 years ago.
   Walking on the roof is a tight space around the bathroom vent.  RonB
   Amazon/ Renogy 50W is 23"x20"  Amazon.com : Renogy 50 Watt 12 Volt Monocrystalline Solar Panel (Compact... (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Monocrystalline-Efficiency-Charging-Applications/dp/B07GTH79JP/ref=asc_df_B07GTH79JP/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16389836000691918817&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061201&hvtargid=pla-2281435176378&mcid=b266924068d131c483e2e80af59d2efa&hvocijid=16389836000691918817-B07GTH79JP-&hvexpln=73&gad_source=1&th=1) 

More panels are better than bigger panels, i.e. a pair of 125W panels is better than one 250W model. Even a small amount of shading on one panel can kill most of its output, and shade on and off is nearly impossible to avoid most places.

Steve

The 22.6 does not have space on the roof for more panels considering space. 

First, your T/K is a 22', assuming it is on a Chevy chassis. The Ford T/Ks are 23.5’ long.

Dave Kettlemamn’s T/K has, I believe, 800 watts of solar,  it’s all about the layout.
Our short 23.5' Front Lounge has 560 watts of solar plus kayak racks. If the roof was reconfigured, at least 700 watts of panels could be installed.
As Ron pointed out, panels come in a wide range of sizes.They can be mixed to maximize the available power as long as all the panels have the same output voltage.
Steve pointed out that having several panels distributed across the roof reduces the influence of shading.

If your LD came from the Factory with a panel, the original solar controller box can accommodate a Blue Sky 30001, it’s good for about 500 watts of panels. The stock 10 gauge solar wiring should be upgraded if exceeding 200 watts to reduce voltage drop.

Larry

First, your T/K is a 22', assuming it is on a Chevy chassis. The Ford T/Ks are 23.5’ long.

Dave Katleman’s 2017 T/K has, I believe, 800 watts of solar,  it’s all about the layout.
Our short 23.5' Front Lounge has 560 watts of solar plus kayak racks. If the roof was reconfigured, at least 700 watts of panels could be installed.
As Ron pointed out, panels come in a wide range of sizes.They can be mixed to maximize the available power as long as all the panels have the same output voltage.
Steve pointed out that having several panels distributed across the roof reduces the influence of shading.

If your LD came from the Factory with a panel, the original solar controller box can accommodate a Blue Sky 30001, it’s good for about 500 watts of panels. The stock 10 gauge solar wiring should be upgraded if exceeding 200 watts to reduce voltage drop.

I have 850 watts (5 170Watt panels)

Had the TV antenna removed, along with the original Lazy Daze panels to maximize what I could put up there.   You do want more panels than a couple big ones, as any shading of a panel turns the whole panel off.

The Victron inverter, MPPT, and four Lithium batteries were tucked in under the passenger side couch, losing roughly half that bay, but freeing up the default battery bay.

I have considered removing the generator and placing another bank of batteries there, freeing up a bit of weight and eliminating the monthly running of the generator.  Haven’t needed it in either trip to Alaska or Newfoundland. But I’m too lazy to do it.

That's a sweet setup, Dave!

Hi Chris;  So I'm going to reconsider my message to you. You asked how I ran things, wiring and panel. I came up with what I did. But what you should do may be a lot different!
   The panel is good.  The Rich Solar 'Mega 250' is essentially two panels in the same package. They are 33 cells in series each, and internally connected in parallel. Monocrystalline is good. 21% efficiency is good. Rich lists it at 60.6" x 30". It is just about a perfect fit.  I spaced mine up at about 3.5" high to clear shadows and get air circulation underneath.
   The Victron is a little overkill, but that's usually a good thing. MPPT is a very good thing to maximize your solar. Victron is a good brand.
   Essentially you asked how to run the wiring. This a "J" (junction box):  https://www.homedepot.com/pep/1-2-in-Rigid-Type-LR-Threaded-Conduit-Body-with-Cover-and-Gasket-58905/100173062?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D27E-027_006_CONDUIT_FIT-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-NA_2024_WHU24&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-CM-CML-GGL-D27E-027_006_CONDUIT_FIT-NA-NA-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NEW-NA_2024_WHU24-71700000118279170--&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzva1BhD3ARIsADQuPnWFe1zBNWvR3gBJ913xyGvLZE18Cmu_wWqMaATuKy_6SOIFuOjLn48aAtSMEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds  and two nipples. One to go through the side of the refrigerator roof vent, and another to go into a bell box to connect the wiring from the one panel. The Bell box and 'J' box have removable waterproof covers. They can be just glued onto the roof with sealant. I put a screw into the roof inside the box, and sealant. Nipple (a coupling): https://www.gordonelectricsupply.com/p/Garvin-Bb-1-2-1-Box-Spacer-Connector/6255254?gad_source=4&gclid=Cj0KCQjwzva1BhD3ARIsADQuPnVKRsQlsnFhb-r5xa0bkkoUrEFwlz77fSzxMbVYS5X4LMLNcVqPkl4aAlv2EALw_wcB  . Use aluminum J box and Bell Box. They hold up to sunlight. I use the J box to fit under the plastic refrigerator vent. It is lower than the Bell Box, about 2" high.  Run the wires from the panel into the side of a single box. I'd cut the solar connectors off, run the wires all the way into the refrigerator space. Splice them there, to run down to behind the drawer. Split wire loom taped solid and screwed onto the wood using a few clamps.  LOKMAN 20 Pack 1/2 Inch Stainless Steel Cable Clamp, Rubber Cushioned... (https://www.amazon.com/LOKMAN-Stainless-Cushioned-Insulated-Installation/dp/B01HPE188Q/ref=asc_df_B01HPE185E/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13200772344516740971&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061201&hvtargid=pla-2281435180498&mcid=8d07c09bb1723151a74a670d1bbe38fb&hvocijid=13200772344516740971-B01HPE185E-&hvexpln=73&gad_source=4&th=1). Use this for the wiring. BEWARE of Copper Clad, cheap and worthless in my opinion. Amazon.com: GS Power Flexible 10 AWG (American Wire Gauge) 50 Feet Stranded... (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074S12G91/ref=sspa_dk_detail_3?pd_rd_i=B074S12G91&pd_rd_w=6flLY&content-id=amzn1.sym.386c274b-4bfe-4421-9052-a1a56db557ab&pf_rd_p=386c274b-4bfe-4421-9052-a1a56db557ab&pf_rd_r=B9A12MPV0DRF79D9KJ3H&pd_rd_wg=861An&pd_rd_r=9c122abf-38d2-4cb5-8159-e9e46b768d95&s=hi&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9kZXRhaWxfdGhlbWF0aWM&th=1) This is solid copper, fine stranded for flexibility. It will run down on the outside of the back of the refrigerator, just inside the outside door, and under into the drawer area (drawer out.) No holes in the refrigerator!  Caulk the holes so carbon monoxide from the refrigerator flame can't get into the motorhome. You should be able to mount the Victron controller under there some where, (see picture) and a circuit breaker about 25 Amp for the Victron connection to your battery terminals on your power distribution box.  Amazon.com: GLOSO Circuit Breaker 30 A E69 for Marine Truck Boat RV Automotiv... (https://www.amazon.com/GLOSO-Manual-Circuit-Breaker-Compact/dp/B0BG6FRTC8/ref=asc_df_B0BG68MQ1X/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=692875362841&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10690994831930955713&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9061201&hvtargid=pla-2281435180938&mcid=f969936d218a3c03857ec21ee8d23381&hvocijid=10690994831930955713-B0BG68MQ1X-&hvexpln=73&gad_source=1&th=1)     (Lazy Daze used a ten amp fuse  holder, but you need more. Label the wires "solar controller".
   I highly recommend upgrading your Magnetek old fashioned converter to a Progressive Dynamics 4 stage battery charger/ converter.  I get my split wire loom at Harbor Freight.   RonB

If your LD came from the Factory with a panel, the original solar controller box can accommodate a Blue Sky 30001, it’s good for about 500 watts of panels. The stock 10 gauge solar wiring should be upgraded if exceeding 200 watts to reduce voltage drop.

Larry

Larry,
My LD came from the factory with BS3000i and 230w of solar.  I have since added 200w more to make 430w. Do you think LD upgraded the solar wiring in my model?  Should I upgrade it? And if so, are you talking about the 3ft or so of wire that goes from the roof junction box to the Blue Sky controller?  On a RB, that is a relatively easy change.  If you're talking about from the controller to the wiring center, that is nearly impossible as it is run underneath the floor.
Linda

Linda, upgrading the feed may not offer much improvement, but if you decide to, then there is always an option to re-route to a more accessible path.

Steve

That's an interesting question. Here's my take:

1. For a given wire gauge, the higher the voltage, the lower the voltage drop. Power coming down from the panels to the charging controller is at about 18 volts; power going from the controller to the batteries is at about 13 volts. So upgrading the wire from the controller to the batteries should give more benefit, at least in theory.

2. The longer the wiring run, the more of an effect voltage drop will have.

3. If there's voltage drop in the wire from the panels to the controller, that's a waste, but the controller will still send out the appropriate charging voltages to the batteries. However, if there's voltage drop between the controller and the batteries, the batteries may not receive the necessary voltage for a full charge... unless there's a voltage sensing wire running back to the controller. Such a wire can let the controller know when the batteries aren't getting what they're supposed to be getting, so it can boost its output voltage to compensate. But not all installations have such a wire, and lacking one, voltage drop in the run from the controller to the batteries is much more serious.

All of the above points to the conclusion that if you're going to upgrade wiring, doing it to the wiring run from the controller to the batteries will be more beneficial. It's unfortunate that that's a more difficult job, but perhaps as Steve said, you can find an easier (and hopefully shorter) route for that cable.

Hi Andy; if the solar controller is mounted under the refrigerator, the wires to the power distribution panel is about two feet. Directly to the batteries can also be about a foot or two. The space beside the drawer might be the best locarion for access. The down wire at 10 ga. Is what the panel(s) come with and again are pretty short from the refrigerator vent to below the fridge support shelf.  RonB

"if the solar controller is mounted under the refrigerator, the wires to the power distribution panel is about two feet. Directly to the batteries can also be about a foot or two."

True, and that's what I did in my midbath. But from what Linda said, it sounded as if in her rig, the factory used three feet of wire from the roof to the wall-mounted Blue Sky controller, and then a presumably much longer run from there under the floor to the wiring center. To mount the solar controller under the fridge as you suggested would be a better solution electrically, but it would require a different solar controller--one with either a wired remote panel (e.g., Morningstar) or wireless control via Bluetooth (e.g., Victron Smart Solar). Either one would likely cost a couple hundred dollars.

Sorry Andy; My reply was about ChrisB's '94 T/K (reply #30) and a simple addition of a 250W panel and controller with no other  mods.  Linda of course with a RB floorplan would be a better choice for an all-out install with LiF batteries. etc.    RonB

"My reply was about ChrisB's '94 T/K (reply #30) and a simple addition of a 250W panel and controller with no other  mods."

Oh, I get it. Well, for what it's worth, here's what I did when mounting a solar controller under my midbath's fridge. I hope the general ideas here will translate to a twin/king layout.

First I build a "breadboard" and mounted all components to it, then wired them together. It's much easier to do it this way than to try to do all the wiring while lying on the floor. With that done, I mounted the breadboard to the "ceiling" of the space under the fridge and completed the wiring.

The attached photos show the breadboard setup, and then the same thing with labels. You'll notice a couple of things. At lower left and lower right there are terminal blocks (Blue Sea PowerPosts). I used them because the Victron controller can only accept a maximum wire size of #6, but I used #2 wire coming down from the panels (600 watts in this case) and going out to the batteries, in order to minimize voltage drop. The PowerPosts let me make the transition from those long #2 runs to a few inches of #6 cable going into the controller.

In other installations I've handled this issue by clipping strands on the last new inches of a larger gauge cable to get it down to a size that will fit in the Victron controller's small terminals, instead of using PowerPosts, but that's frankly a pain. Also, I needed a terminal block on the input side anyway, because I had to be able to combine wiring from the roof panels with wiring from portable panels. I know I've banged this drum before, but I find portable panels to be indispensable in situations like mine right now: camping in a forest, where my roof is mostly shaded but I have a 200 watt solar suitcase set out in a clearing, where it catches the full sun.

You'll note that the positive line from the roof panels is switched on the breadboard. The portable panels are switched elsewhere, where that line ends in MC4 pigtails that allow connecting the portable panels when needed.

Hope this is helpful!

P.S.--I'm sorry about the lack of sharpness in those photos. I had to apply extreme JPEG compression (19/100) to get the files below the stated 49K maximum size. Can that be changed? I'd say 150K per image would be more realistic.

One more note: you can't see it in the photos, but I mounted the Victron solar controller using 3/4" standoffs, so that there's a good air gap behind it. No sense letting it get any hotter than it has to, especially when mounting it in a confined space.