I am putting this in Around The Campfire, instead of Technical but I really want some technical replies.
1) Someone on FB asked about the "best" trickle charger. I did not offer a brand but suggested to not get a cheap one as it might damage the battery. Now I really don't know if cheap ones really can reduce the life of a battery or not, but I have heard it and it might be true. How say you? Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence? Please note I am not asking for the brand name of a trickle charger. ;D
2) Second, since the LD was going to be stored away from home, servicing the water level in the battery might be a hassle. So I suggested disconnect switches for the chassis and house batteries in lieu of trickle chargers. This is the way I put my batteries in storage. I think it's healthier for the batteries. How say you?
3) Another commenter was emphatic that all batteries discharge unless kept under charge. I have not found that a battery that is not connected loses any appreciable charge. What say you?
Please be sure to make your replies to the three questions as spot-on as possible without undue wandering around. 8)
Don, see my responses below.
1. I have been using battery charger-maintainer-desulfators for some time. Currently I have several of them in service. They are 1.5 Amp max battery charger-maintainers with full-time automatic high frequency pulse desulfation (not high voltage). Recently I noticed issues with one of our vehicle’s battery. I checked the alternator and vehicle’s charging circuity and found no issues. So, I replaced the four-year old battery and kept it to see if one of these chargers could “revive” it. Initial voltage before charging was 12.5 volts, which is about an 80% state-of-charge. Every week I would disconnect the charger for 24-48 hours to retest. Every week the resting voltage increased until week six when it was at 12.8 volts or 100%. After resting for another week, the voltage was at 12.7+ volts. The electrolyte level in each cell remained the same, no losses.
2. I store our LD at home uncovered. The house batteries are Trojan T-105s and are kept charged by our solar panels via a Blue Sky Energy SB3000i Solar Charge Controller. The chassis battery is maintained by a Trik-L-Start charger-maintainer sharing the solar output from the SB3000i. If I was storing covered I would disconnect the Trik-L-Start and use 1.5 Amp max battery charger-maintainers for both.
3. Per Progressive Dynamics "All batteries, regardless of their chemistry, will self-discharge. The rate of self-discharge for lead acid batteries depends on the storage or operating temperature. At a temperature of 80 degrees F. a lead acid battery will self-discharge at a rate of approximately 4% a week. A battery with a 125-amp hour rating would self-discharge at a rate of approximately five amps per week. Keeping this in mind if a 125 AH battery is stored for four months (16 weeks) winter without being charged, it will lose 80 amps of its 125-amp capacity. It will also have severe sulfation, which causes additional loss of capacity. Keep your batteries charged while not in use!"
Charles
Hi Charles. No need to disconnect the Trik-L-Start. It won't overcharge the chassis battery, and if there is no solar charging extra power available, it shuts off and won't discharge the battery it is connected to. I have the SB3000i and Trik-L-Start also.
Don, I use a low tech Harbor Freight trickle charger sucessfully for months at a time. Doesn't harm the battery, and supplies quiescent power for engine computer, alarm system. radio memory. https://www.harborfreight.com/automatic-battery-float-charger-64284.html
Lead acid batteries do self discharge, but more like the 1% per month if it is cold 40-50 F. More discharge at higher temperatures. Just sitting, statification of electrolyte, and sulphation happen, but can be reversed by motion, charging, and de-sulphation charging routines. My disconnect switch is a box wrench, and I don't do that unless I'm working on parts of the system.
My rig is stored in my driveway, full solar all the time, but here it never gets below 30F. RonB
Switching gears a bit . . . I know there are lots of variables here but generally, how long can one reasonably expect the chassis battery to last? Should I be concerned that the original 2017 battery will need replacing soon? Or the house batteries, for that matter?
Switching gears a bit . . . I know there are lots of variables here but generally, how long can one reasonably expect the chassis battery to last? Should I be concerned that the original 2017 battery will need replacing soon? Or the house batteries, for that matter?
Greg, from my experience standard lead-acid chassis batteries usually last about 3 to 4 years. Our LD had a new Duralast Gold lead-acid chassis battery when we purchased it from the estate of the original owner and it is still performing well. Don't you have an AGM house battery bank? I know that true deep-cycle lead-acid batteries can last up to five, six, or maybe more years
if properly managed and maintained. My Trojan T105s are three years old and appear to perform as new. I would assume an AGM bank would last as long.
Charles
Greg, from my experience standard lead-acid chassis batteries usually last about 3 to 4 years. Our LD had a new Duralast Gold lead-acid chassis battery when we purchased it from the estate of the original owner and it is still performing well. Don't you have an AGM house battery bank? I know that true deep-cycle lead-acid batteries can last up to five, six, or maybe more years if properly managed and maintained. My Trojan T105s are three years old and appear to perform as new. I would assume an AGM bank would last as long.
Looks like I better start doing some research for a replacement chassis battery then. Yes, the house batteries are AGM. Glad for that as there are no water levels to check. 👍 Thanks, Charles!
Hi Charles. No need to disconnect the Trik-L-Start. It won't overcharge the chassis battery, and if there is no solar charging extra power available, it shuts off and won't discharge the battery it is connected to. I have the SB3000i and Trik-L-Start also.
Don, I use a low tech Harbor Freight trickle charger sucessfully for months at a time. Doesn't harm the battery, and supplies quiescent power for engine computer, alarm system. radio memory. https://www.harborfreight.com/automatic-battery-float-charger-64284.html
Lead acid batteries do self discharge, but more like the 1% per month if it is cold 40-50 F. More discharge at higher temperatures. Just sitting, statification of electrolyte, and sulphation happen, but can be reversed by motion, charging, and de-sulphation charging routines. My disconnect switch is a box wrench, and I don't do that unless I'm working on parts of the system.
My rig is stored in my driveway, full solar all the time, but here it never gets below 30F. RonB
Hi Ron. I didn't have the Trik-L-Start until earlier this year. Before I installed it I used a BatteryMINDer 1510: 12 Volt-1.5 AMP Battery Charger, Battery Maintainer, and Battery Desulfator BatteryMINDer (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=B00Q3CM2QY&ref=nb_sb_noss) to charge and maintain the chassis battery.
Charles
Thanks Charles. Greg, Your chassis battery can easily last 7-8 years. It is only used to start the engine. Don't leave you lights on, the dash cigarette lighter plugs are only if you are going to be driving. My GPS goes there. RonB
Thanks Charles. Greg, Your chassis battery can easily last 7-8 years. It is only used to start the engine. Don't leave you lights on, the dash cigarette lighter plugs are only if you are going to be driving. My GPS goes there. RonB
Ron, I've never had a starting battery last 7-8 years. What kind and brand of battery have you had last that long? Lead-acid batteries used to be warranted for 3, 4, or 4 years but now for 1, 2, or 3. Heck, I remember going to the local battery shop with my dad to have the family car battery rebuilt on-premise. In retrospect, that was an extremely hazardous facility.
As far as the dash cigarette lighter plugs, I'm trying to figure out if I can re-wire one to the house bank so I can power our new Massimo 12V Portable E-Kooler. We only have two 12V outlets connected to the house bank and they are in the rear. I want to have the cooler between the cab seats when we are stationary and don’t want to run the supply cable from back to front. Thinking I could access the house 12V supply off the DC Power Contactor located under hood on the driver’s side.
Charles
Ron, on the drive back to Cali, I was using one of the dash 12V receptacles for phone charging without the engine running but assumed it was wired to the coach battery since it was hot. Are the dash outlets wired hot to the chassis battery (there are three of them in the cab portion). Can’t remember why I did that but it was only for one night.
LOL! Sorry, Don, it didn't take long for the thread to start wandering around like they ususally do even though you specifically asked for answers to your three questions. . I'm not sure why people can't post new threads instead of hijacking existing ones. It gets annoying sometimes.
I'll extend this thread here in technical, instead of around the campfire. Hi Charles and Greg. The chassis battery that came with it, Motocraft Ford, lasted at least 6 years. (I'll look it up in my records tomorrow). I put in a buzzer to remind me to turn off the headlights and marker lights. It's not a deep cycle battery so not as forgiving. The dash power point has a cover and is accessory, turns off with a key. The other lower is connected to the house battery, and I may have connected it to the radio when I replaced the one LD provided. Because the new (1998 vintage now) radio had high power demands if it was turned up, I increased the size of the fuse from 10 Amp to 20 Amps. Thats just a peak draw, the average is much lower. I'm sure the wire is fine. My #2 chassis battery was a Diehard Sears. Expensive then, but lasted 8 years. The next Diehard (inst 2013) lasted until 2018. Ok, only 5 years. I believe that Diehards went to AGM, so I put in a Costco Interstate in 2018. So that is my fourth starting/chassis battery. With the Trik-L-Start and solar, It is doing well. I don't have cold weather, and just short periods of hot weather. I start and run the engine, drive it around, at least every month or so. Not stored, no snow, etc. So that is about the best things can be for a battery.
Greg. You were driving daily, so the chassis battery wasn't harmed. Phone charging is a very minor load.
Charles, taking power off of the charging line for cooler use, will work. There is a circuit breaker to protect the wire going back to the house batteries. A fuse and label at the charging relay would protect the wire going to the cooler, and the cooler has its own fuse. RonB
Well, the replies did wander.
I have gleaned:
1) Trickle chargers are commonly used, but no one has any evidence that they shorten the life of a battery.
2) I have found using trickle or solar I have to top off the water in the battery every month. No one addressed this.
If I disconnect, the water level remains constant. I have not noticed exactly how much the batteries discharge, but after 2-3 months, it's less than 10%. More than that and I would have gotten concerned. I think I will stay with flipping the switch.
Thanks, Ron, and my apologies to Don as I was the one that started his thread wandering, I think.
Electrical is certainly my weak point so please bear with me. One thing that's nice on the 2017 is a warning chime that alerts you that the headlights are on although it only sounds when you open the cab door so if you just stop and park and don't open the door, you have to remember to turn the lights off. The markers lights work off the headlight switch, correct?
On my drive back, I kept forgetting to turn on the headlights and the backup camera (which is a nice thing to leave on while driving to monitor oncoming and merging traffic), so I placed a piece of paper on the console that said "Lights, camera, action!" That was a helpful reminder so maybe a reminder label on the dash would be good.
Another new thing for me is solar. It's great feature! Does it top off the chassis battery as well as the house batteries?
Another new thing for me is solar. It's great feature! Does it top off the chassis battery as well as the house batteries?
The solar controller should be wired so the starting battery is also charged.
Our starting battery usually lasts 4-6 years, keeping the charge topped off helps increase its life.
Larry
No trickle charger here, we usually get long lives out of both the starting and coach batteries, the Blue Sky 3000i solar controller does a good job of keeping both sets of batteries fully charged without using excessive amounts of water.
Larry
Hi Larry,
Just for clarification, are you saying that if a Lazy Daze coach had factory installed solar that part of the default installation is to wire the starting battery for charging or did you mean that if one was going to install after market solar that it would be a good idea to have it wired for charging both starting and coach batteries. I am hoping the former since I have a factory installed panel and this would be a nice feature to have.
Thanks. Matt
1: Battery Tender
2: Water level doesn't go down much if not being used.
3: If it's at all cold batteries lose power.
How's that for no wandering? :D
[merged 2 topics that belong together - Michelle]
Hi Larry,
"Just for clarification, are you saying that if a Lazy Daze coach had factory installed solar that part of the default installation is to wire the starting battery for charging or did you mean that if one was going to install after market solar that it would be a good idea to have it wired for charging both starting and coach batteries. I am hoping the former since I have a factory installed panel and this would be a nice feature to have."
Thanks. Matt
Hi Matt,
First off, I am not Larry and I won't attempt to tell you what he meant. But I notice that your LD is a 2004 model; the factory installed solar panels were not intended to charge the chassis/truck battery back then. I posted several years ago that the 2016 information packet that LD had mailed to me said that they were now installing solar that would charge the truck battery. I think that was the first year that feature was available on factory solar installation.
These are the kinds of little things missed by the"Lazy Daze Pocket Guide Changes Through the Years".
I hope this answered your question.
Steve K
Confirming what Steve says, the solar does charge the chassis battery now. Just found it in the spec sheet for my year, 2017.
Thanks Steve. Disappointed that is not my setup but glad that later model owner's enjoy this benefit. Happy Holidays!
Matt
My 2003 LD does have a battery disconnect switch, which was wired around at some point in the past. So it no longer works although it is still in place. I put a battery tender on the chassis battery and that eliminated my starting issues. I run 20amp 110v power cord to the engine compartment when I am parked and also plug in two 60w led lights. That has kept packrats away so far.
Disappointed that is not my setup but glad that later model owners enjoy this benefit. Happy Holidays!
Upgrading to a newer solar controller, such as the Blue Sky 3000i will provide the circuit needed to charge the starting battery.
A new wire will need to be run to the starting battery or battery isolator. It's worth the effort.
Larry
Upgrading to a newer solar controller, such as the Blue Sky 3000i will provide the circuit needed to charge the starting battery.
A new wire will need to be run to the starting battery or battery isolator. It's worth the effort.
Larry, when I replaced the Heliotrope HPV-22 that LD installed with a Blue Sky SB3000i I concluded the only way (at least aesthetically) to run a wire from it to the chassis battery would be to pull the refrigerator to gain access to the wire run. Was I mistaken?
Charles
Larry, when I replaced the Heliotrope HPV-22 that LD installed with a Blue Sky SB3000i I concluded the only way (at least aesthetically) to run a wire from it to the chassis battery would be to pull the refrigerator to gain access to the wire run. Was I mistaken?
Without looking at your rig, I don't know how the wire would be run.
I do know that wiring can be run to just about any place with a little ingenuity .
Larry
Without looking at your rig, I don't know how the wire would be run.
I do know that wiring can be run to just about any place with a little ingenuity.
LD installed the Heliotrope HPV-22 in the Twin King in a small box protruding from the wall next to the refrigerator above the cabinet that is over the battery box. After entering the roof, the wire run from the solar panels runs along the top of the upper cabinet and then down in that wall to the controller. The run from the controller to the power center and battery box is also in that same wall. I see no way to access that wire run unless the refrigerator is removed.
I do see from Jim Langley’s video of his 2016 Twin King that, compared to the Heliotrope, Lazy Daze mounted the Blue Sky higher up on that wall closer to the window on an elevated portion of that wall that goes from the counter top of the lower cabinet to the bottom of the upper cabinet http://youtu.be/Qgrk71OuSbA?t=256 . I assume that the wire run for this installation runs in that elevated wall section and is accessible in the top cabinet and the power center area below or perhaps from the outside of the refrigerator compartment.
Tomorrow I plan to pull the drawer out that's under the refrigerator and also pull out the power center again to see if I can come up with a path for a wire from the Blue Sky to the chassis battery.
Charles
I would hope these chargers can be left on the battery constantly in storage without over charging. I used to leave one on a motorcycle for days and weeks in winter. If you have access to the rig you could just charge it for a couple days a month.
I don’t think watering the batteries should be a storage issue. I think they off gas much more charging after a significant discharge.
I think a disconnected battery should be ok for a few months but will loose charge sitting but it is best to keep the batteries closer to full charge for battery life.
I got over eight years out of my AGM batteries and they were still serving my needs when I replaced them (it was a convenient time and I figured they were not good for much more time, and they had hot spots when charging) I think this is because they had a solar system keeping them charged up in storage.
I ran a wire to charge the starting battery from my Blue Sky 3000i solar controller outside the RV through the house battery location on my RB. I use the aux output of the 3000i, no Trik L Charger. Can anyone tell me where the battery isolator is? I imagine either under the hood or near the house batteries.
I have had a few Costco 100 month batteries now replaced a little before 96 months while still working fine. The Costco battery I put in my Forester a month or so ago has only a 3 year warranty..... :(
Charles; Just because the solar Boost 3000i has an output to charge the chassis battery doesn't mean you have to use it. Especially if you have to run a wire. I already had a triklstart when I recently upgraded from my SB2000i (20A max) to a SB3000i (30A max) controller. If you don't have sufficient sunlight, or your house batteries are a bit down, theSB3000i won't charge the chassis battery. If you have shore power and your converter is charging your house batteries, there will be enough voltage for the Trik-L-Start to charge the chassis battery. The charger in the converter is PWM and the pulses will allow the Trik-L-Start to take some power. It of course also works from the solar, if solar has raised the house batteries voltage level. I believe the SB300i is limited to 2 amps. The Trik-L-Start can provide up to 5 amps, the Mega Trik-L-Start 10 amps ($55), Amp-L-Start up to 15 amps (LiFePO4 by jumper change). Easier to install than running wires in a convoluted path from the SB3000i. RonB
Charles; Just because the solar Boost 3000i has an output to charge the chassis battery doesn't mean you have to use it. Especially if you have to run a wire.
Ron, yes I know. But right now we're stuck at home and I've got time on my hands. I need to figure out how and where to install an EMS HW30C Surge Protector and investigate upgrading the converter section in the Parallax power center so now's the time to look into it again. It appears the PO had the converter section replaced with a 45A Parallax 45RU converter lower section.
Charles
I would hope these chargers can be left on the battery constantly in storage without over charging.
There are many "smart" chargers out there. I have used BatteryMINDer maintenance charger-desulfators from VDC Electronics for many years. These units do not overcharge.
Charles
Can anyone tell me where the battery isolator is? I imagine either under the hood or near the house batteries.
Jay; if you have an isolator it's usually on the firewall, if you have a contactor it's on the driver's side inner fender wall. They will be under the hood. LD used to use isolators but moved to contactors, our 2007 has a contactor. They serve the same purpose in a different manner.
Charles
My disconnect switch is a box wrench, and I don't do that unless I'm working on parts of the system.
I must have skipped past that ::) Me too. Low tech, effective, and reliable.
Charles