we've had a few things done on our rig in the past year or so. after having it at one shop, we noticed it was making louder noise then usual when driving. not noticeable in the rv itself, but when i was following it i could hear it. sounded like maybe minor exhaust leak, so we didn't pay a super amount of attention to it.
we finally brought it somewhere else today for a full exhaust system check. no leaks and they couldn't find anything. they mentioned because the rv didn't have a cat, we might just be hearing normal engine noise. that sounded funny to us, so when we questioned it, they showed where the cat used to be. someone had welded a straight pipe in it's place. they said it look clean, and maybe a year or so old. we bought the rig about two years ago from previous owner in CA. In NC it doesn't need a cat to pass inspection. I'm thinking that can't be the case in CA can it?
i'm wondering if one of the shops we went to decided to help themselves to some extra cash.
does anyone know if the mothership would remove the cat?
Anything Lazy Daze gets in California would have all of the equipment involved with the smog devices, as it came from Ford. I'm sure LD wouldn't change anything. I can't tell what a previous owner could or would do, but I guess if one went bad, that if it isn't required where you are, It might get replaced with a straight pipe. They aren't cheap. If it was switched out after you bought it, then your guess as to what happened is far better than mine. RonB
I have no idea what the state where your LD is registered, in states that require periodic emission testing, the inspector looks for the presence of a catalytic converter(s), during the visual inspection, In California, if the inspector suspects it has been replaced, they find the model number stamped on it and look it up, verifying it is the correct replacement. If it isn't there or the number is wrong, the vehicle fails the test and the state is notified.
It is a Federal crime to remove or defeat the operation of a catalytic converter from a street-driven vehicle. The missing cat should be replaced, the rest of us air-breathing types would appreciate it.
The cat does not noticeably affect performance or gas mileage except then the honeycomb interior structure disintegrates and plugs up. This is what probably happen and the previous owner didn't want to pay for a new converter and living in a state that doesn't emission test their vehicle, knew that getting caught was unlikely.
Larry
Interesting info on cats and explains why henness noticed louder engine noise.
Seems that a "significant" increase in HP and mpg is also a result of no cat and I wonder if henness noticed any increase in power and better mpg along with noise.
13 Removing Catalytic Converter Pros and Cons – Green Garage (https://greengarageblog.org/13-removing-catalytic-converter-pros-and-cons#:~:text=List%20of%20the%20Cons%20of%20Removing%20a%20Catalytic,converter%20sounds%20healthy%2C%20it%20can%20...%20More%20items)
Two things are a bit confusing.
"Federal law in the United States prohibits the removal of a catalytic converter which is functioning properly. "
So does this mean if you remove a malfunctioning cat you don't legally have to replace it to meet fed laws?
"Several states, such as California, have strict laws on the books which prohibit the removal of a catalytic converter under most circumstances."
So not all states require a cat? That's news to me. Seems like there's some cat loopholes here you could drive an LD through.
Interesting info on cats and explains why henness noticed louder engine noise.
Seems that a "significant" increase in HP and mpg is also a result of no cat and I wonder if henness noticed any increase in power and better mpg along with noise.
13 Removing Catalytic Converter Pros and Cons – Green Garage (https://greengarageblog.org/13-removing-catalytic-converter-pros-and-cons#:~:text=List%20of%20the%20Cons%20of%20Removing%20a%20Catalytic,converter%20sounds%20healthy%2C%20it%20can%20...%20More%20items)
Two things are a bit confusing.
"Federal law in the United States prohibits the removal of a catalytic converter which is functioning properly. "
So does this mean if you remove a malfunctioning cat you don't legally have to replace it to meet fed laws?
"Several states, such as California, have strict laws on the books which prohibit the removal of a catalytic converter under most circumstances."
So not all states require a cat? That's news to me. Seems like there's some cat loopholes here you could drive an LD through.
First thing, if your vehicle came with a catalytic converter, Federal law prohibits it from being legally removed, no matter what state is it is registered in, the exception is if the vehicle is not licensed and is used exclusively off road (think race cars).
If a state doesn't inspect periodically, they should but that does not give you the right to remove it. Usually, when a cat fails, it will rattle and the interior collapses, plugging the converter up, sometimes enough to keep the engine from running at all. Other times, the catalyst material becomes 'poisoned' or wears off, eliminating or reducing the cat's effectiveness.
Legally, if it fails, it should be replaced with a matching replacement. If your state inspects and the cat is missing or it does not pass the tailpipe test, you will have to replace a defective cat to pass.
A newer car's self-diagnostics monitor the cat's performance, using the O2 sensors, and can detect when it has failed, setting a CEL (check engine light). Any CELs present during the emission test will prevent passing.
Years ago, catalytic converters were restrictive and reduced power, today's cats flow efficiently and do not noticeably reduce power or mileage, just because you read it on the internet does not make it correct.
Automotive engineering has come a very long way in the past thirty years. Look at how much power is produced today from very small displacement engines, a restrictive cat would kill the power, the engineers figure this out years ago.
Larry
NC inspections don't include an emissions test for vehicles above 8501lbs GVWR. Emissions tests are also not required in 78 of the 100 counties in NC.
I don't know if inspectors are supposed to visually check for a catalytic convertor, but I've had my LD inspected in NC 9 or so times and have never noticed anyone looking under the rig. The whole inspection takes ~10 minutes and costs $13.60.
All of that doesn't speak to what is right - just what happens.
My guess is that someone stole the catalytic convertor while the rig was parked in a storage lot somewhere. Faced with the prospect of paying for a new one, the owner choose not to. Speculation, of course, but that kind of thing happens.
Rich
NC inspections don't include an emissions test for vehicles above 8501lbs GVWR. Emissions tests are also not required in 78 of the 100 counties in NC.
I don't know if inspectors are supposed to visually check for a catalytic convertor, but I've had my LD inspected in NC 9 or so times and have never noticed anyone looking under the rig. The whole inspection takes ~10 minutes and costs $13.60.
All of that doesn't speak to what is right - just what happens.
My guess is that someone stole the catalytic convertor while the rig was parked in a storage lot somewhere. Faced with the prospect of paying for a new one, the owner choose not to. Speculation, of course, but that kind of thing happens.
Rich
This got me interested in Washington where I've lived ten years now and never gave an emissions test a second thought. I researched it and found only a few counties in Washington require such a test and I fortunately don't live in one of them.
As far as federal restrictions it's once again where you live that matters. Feds don't inspect and if your state doesn't either it's a law without enforcement and you can pretty much do as you please so I think henness has nothing to worry about legally.
As far as replacement of this very expensive part for pollution sake I don't think any of us who choose to drive a 10 mpg vehicle for recreation are all that "green" so that's probably not an issue.
"You'll never get fined if you never get caught, which is entirely possible in many places; some states like South Dakota and Florida don't have any emissions testing. Converter removal is fairly common in states like these, but there's one caveat; don't walk up to any old shop and ask them to remove the converter. Most will either tell you that they don't do exhaust work for undercover EPA agents, or that you have to register your vehicle as "off-road only" before they'll touch it. "
Catalytic Converter Laws | Legal Beagle (https://legalbeagle.com/7194804-catalytic-converter-laws.html)
The removal of catalytic converter will cause potential problems later unless the person who removed also changed the engine control programs in the PCM (Powertrain Control Module). Depending which model year of your rig, there could be 2 to 4 oxygen sensors in the exhaust system. The engine PCM calculate your air/fuel mix ratio depending the output of the oxygen sensors. This is called close loop control. Remove the catalyst distorted the signal engine receives and will have NEGATIVE consequences long term as engine could be burning too lean or too rich. You should be looking for a shop to weld the catalyst back unless you know someone reflashed the control program in the PCM accordingly.
If you provide the model year of your Lazy Daze. I can figure what number of oxygen sensors in the system and let you know how bad this action will cause in long term engine damage. This is serious.
From RVTravel.com today. The scary truth about thousands of catalytic converter thefts - RV Travel (https://www.rvtravel.com/catalyticconverters981b/)
Chris
Has anyone taken any steps to prevent the catalytic converter from being stolen of your LD?
Regards,
Julie
The good news is Ford E450 catalytic converters (two per bank) are fabricated with the front pipes together. It is very difficult to remove, unlike those cars/trucks/suvs with bolted on catalyst. In the case we are discussing here, the catalytic converters were intentionally removed to reduce exhaust back pressure for "better performance". Unfortunately the guy who did it really did not keep with new technology and did not know what he was doing.
The good news is Ford E450 catalytic converters (two per bank) are fabricated with the front pipes together. It is very difficult to remove....
Hmmm. Didn't take my thief very long.
Has anyone taken any steps to prevent the catalytic converter from being stolen of your LD?
Regards,
Julie
Not yet, Julie, but I am losing sleep worrying about it. So I have come up with something that I think would work.
My plan is to buy 3 or 4 railroad ties. I haven't looked into the dimensions. But, I believe they are large enough to block access to the underside of the RV. If not, I will make them so by adding more wood to them.
Once I have them the correct height. I'm going to push them under the RV and make a simple square (4 pieces of wood) around the area with the catalytic converter. Then I will drive some lag screws into the railroad ties to join them and ensure no one can just pull the ties out.
Yes, it's going to make it a job to go camping. But, at least if it works, it might make a thief pick someone else's vehicle. It won't be easy to cut through the railroad ties or to move them. And, even if you cut the exhaust and could get the catalytic converter loose, you wouldn't be able to get it over the railroad ties.
Another idea I have is to put something in between the driveway and the catalytic converter, but I can't figure what to use. But if something were under there, it would mean you couldn't remove the cat even if you cut the exhaust pipes.
Clearly, these measures only give me peace of mind at home not on the road. But, that's where our LD spends most of its time.
Love to hear other ideas (probably better) for home made solutions.
Jim & Deb
Santa Cruz, California
2016 24' TK
If I was worried about having my catalytic convertor stolen, I would lower my insurance deductible.
Lower the deductible to reduce your possible cost, park in a reasonably safe place when you can, and do your best to not worry about it anymore.
It's how we handle earthquakes on the west coast, and hurricane season on the gulf/atlantic coast. Insurance, take reasonable steps, do your best to live life.
I guess I might also wrap a big rubber snake around the thing.
Rich
Please be careful Rich. The catalytic converter generate a huge amount of heat by converting unburned hydrocarbons to CO2, thus, surface temperature may exceed 800F. Any organic material would catch fire. I hope the rubber snake is just a joke. In fact, for anyone building barriers around the converter, please be careful in choosing materials, high strength steel is good.
Cutting the catalytic converter from the exhaust pipe will generate a lot of noise, so choosing parking location is critically important.
"I hope the rubber snake is just a joke."
---
Yes. ;)
We are having a rash of cat thefts from Toyota Priuses. They cut them off with a saw in less than a minute. A friend of mine was just told her new cat would cost over $2k installed. Toyota has made Prius-specific locks to prevent cat theft, but most people don’t realize they need one until after a theft.
For the rest of us, there is a universal anti-theft device called a CatClamp that should provide more peace of mind. Amazon.com: CatClamp Standard Kit: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/CatClamp-Standard-Kit/dp/B00HPZTCMA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8) If you read the comments, it seems that it’s best installed on a lift and then welded to prevent rattling. The multiple stainless steel cables make it hard to saw off fast, so thieves are inclined to move on.
Maud
Wow, this thread has a long life. I am not interested in paying several hundred dollars to prevent the thief of an item worth several hundred dollars. Thankful to live where such thief is not an issue. Also thankful I have a Jeep, not a Prius :D .
Another option, courtesy of Kent...
Prevent Catalytic Converter Theft | Catstrap | United States (https://www.catstrap.net/)
Wow, this thread has a long life. I am not interested in paying several hundred dollars to prevent the thief of an item worth several hundred dollars. Thankful to live where such thief is not an issue. Also thankful I have a Jeep, not a Prius :D .
Kinda like building a $50K RV garage to house a $50K RV. 😁
Wow, this thread has a long life. I am not interested in paying several hundred dollars to prevent the thief of an item worth several hundred dollars. Thankful to live where such thief is not an issue. Also thankful I have a Jeep, not a Prius :D .
The replacement cost for our Honda CRV was about $1,400.00 due to the damage to other parts of the exhaust system. We think the thieves in our neck of the woods like to target SUV's because they are much easier to access, easy to crawl under.
I'm glad you live in an area where you don't have this problem, in my area there's a lot of poverty and a drug problem. Not to make excuses for the thieves or anything, just what it is.
Take care, Ron
... I am not interested in paying several hundred dollars to prevent the thief of an item worth several hundred dollars...
Ford OEM for your Lazy Daze E450 - $1,600.00. Then add labor. Your insurance will cover only the cost of an aftermarket product which was not designed to fit the LD without additional pipe bending. If you have a comprehensive deductible, say $500, your loss will be significant. Theft prevention makes sense at these numbers.
Ford OEM for your Lazy Daze E450 - $1,600.00. Then add labor. Your insurance will cover only the cost of an aftermarket product which was not designed to fit the LD without additional pipe bending. If you have a comprehensive deductible, say $500, your loss will be significant. Theft prevention makes sense at these numbers.
Not to mention the downtime to find an OEM replacement and have it installed.
I’ve added CAT protection to my post pick up list for my LD
Your insurance will cover only the cost of an aftermarket product which was not designed to fit the LD without additional pipe bending.
This depends on the laws in your state and contract between you and your insurance company, with the terms spelled out in your policy document.
If you bought insurance that allows non-oem parts, you might get that. If your policy includes OEM replacement parts, you're entitled to them.
Ask your insurance agent about a 'OEM parts endorsement' if that's the kind of coverage you want.
The body shop can be a great source of information about which insurance companies are easier or harder to work with where you live. They deal with insurance policies all day long, understand the issues, and know who provides the best experience for their customers. Most will gladly tell you what they know if you show up with donuts or fresh baked goods!
Rich
Me too.
Got a call from the local PD. The RV/boat storage facility where I keep my MB was broken into. Several RVs had the cats cut off the exhaust system. DaVee was one them. Calls have been made to the insurance co and a local repair place.
Sorry for this PITA hassle; thefts of catalytic converters are increasing everywhere. I doubt that any place is "safe" from this.
Why Thieves Are Coveting Your Catalytic Converter, Particularly Now (https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a35059184/catalytic-converter-theft-cars-up-why/)
Just heard from the repair shop. The catalytic converter is on National back order from Ford. Like the original poster here, the cut was clean on both ends so there will not be a problem with installing a new cat. Thinking about putting a pipe in for a short term solution so I can drive it. Not sure if that will work with the OBD II setup. And no I would not want to do that long term as the RV will run better with the sensors and OBD II metering the fuel. We are looking at a move to Tucson this spring after COVID shot(s).
Oh no, sorry to hear about that John!
Thanks Greg. I just got the estimate from the shop. They quote the Ford cat is going to cost $1900.00.
John,
How about posting this on the NELD website? Good to let our folks know about it.
Sorry about your problem.
Tucson???
John,
How about posting this on the NELD website? Good to let our folks know about it.
Sorry about your problem.
What!
NELD memebers are not on the forum? Get them onboard.
Larry
I’ve been weighing the advantages and disadvantages (cost, mostly) of building a RV garage. Stolen cats will go on the advantage side! ;)
HT, we want to leave the “Inside the Beltway” DC area. We want a house with a pool in a part of the country where use of said pool can occur more than 3 month out of the year. We have Gina’s family and my college friend in Tucson. I think there are some people on this forum that might, maybe, camp with us, at least once until they get to know us. We will rent for a summer to see if we can handle the heat.
Locations on the east coast are also possible and even the MidAtlantic if we don’t like taking care of a pool. But the Washington DC - metropolitan area cost to much and is to crowded. But yes, Tucson is a starting place for this next adventure.
John, how exciting! If it gets too hot in Tucson just come on over to Morro Bay!
John, When you want to come to Tucson, please contact me. I own a real estate and property management company and will be happy to give you some advice. The rental market is red hot here as is the sales market. Many people move here and rent until they decide where they want to buy.
Well there is good news. Though I could not find a 50 state certified cat, the shop I am working with has. The insurance adjuster (from Progressive) knows of the company that makes the cat and said it is a good one and on the approved list of replacement equipment. So things are moving along well. The insurance adjuster also knows of the shop at Holly Acres, the place I store the RV, and said they are a good shop. That was my general impression but it is nice to hear that from an independent source.
Thanks for all the "Good Vibes" from the LDO community.
Rich, you have a P.M.
John
Just received this alert from our local Police Department.
OPD Warns of Sharp Increase of Catalytic Converter Thefts (https://www.osidenews.com/2021/01/14/opd-warns-of-sharp-increase-of-catalytic-converter-thefts/)
Charles
Another update. Progressive insurance came through! The insurance company talked to the shop foreman at Holly Acres. The work has been completed and the RV is back in its spot. They did a check of the storage doors and a close look under the RV while it was on the lift. There was no other damage (that is consistent with others that have been robed). The RV is not throwing any codes that cause a Check Engine Light. Progressive is paying the shop directly. So as much as possible the two companies have made this some what painless for me. I am sure that once the camera systems are installed at the storage place the rental rates will have to go up.
The foreman said two of the thirteen RV that were hit were covered by Progressive. Both of us have been repaired. The other RV are having issues with insurance. We kept our insurance active year around. The agreement for storage said the lot was not responsible for damage and suggested keeping some sort of insurance active on items stored there. If you are storing an RV on a lot you might want to check your insurance coverage as this type of crime is becoming more common.
I received my Cat Strap & Cat Eye system to help eliminate a Cat-tas-trophy with my catalytic converter.
Easy installation, however, I’ll have my mechanic install it tomorrow if he has time. The DW and I are heading to Zion on Monday and I really would like to have it installed before we head out. Seems like a good idea. With the camping season opening up, I prefer not to throw caution to the wind.
My mechanic told me one of his clients had 40 cats stolen from his truck yard in one night. Ouch!
Kent
I also just received the Cat Strap and plan on installing it after I get home (in Santa Rosa visiting grandkids now). I’ll try and document the process for those interested in installing one. Didn’t get the Cat Eye product.
Have fun at Zion, Kent.
Only Comprehensive insurance covers the Catalytic Converter. Mine is $250 deductible also California if your rig is older, like mine, the CA. Emissions Referee must be involved the e450 2000 LD that converter is no longer made. Do not be complacent about checking your insurance. There is currently a shortage of converters due to so many thefts. After a month of angst I will get Circus Wagon back next week.
I am worried about catalyst theft during the storage time when there is no one around. Typically the storage yard operators claim they are not responsible for any theft. I wonder the Cat Eye or Cat Stripe would work in this situation. Thieves can have plenty time to do their work even with the alarm siren in the background. During travel or camping seasons, the owner typically sleep in the LD and motion sensor may help but small animals could be disruptions to sleep, something people in our age could be concerned about.
Having the catalytic converter stolen while out on the road would be a real drag. The LD V10 would make a huge racket and I’d hate driving 1000 miles with that noise echoing around me.
The odds of a campground cat theft may be minimal, however, theft while in a market parking lot may increase the odds. I’ve heard horror stories of several cat thefts occurring simultaneously in large venue lots.
The Cats Eye alarm doesn’t need to be activated at night. It can be armed when away from the rig and only sounds for a short time then resets. So sleep does not need to be disrupted.
The Cat Strap itself is independently alarmed and does not trigger until an actual attempt is made to remove it. Cheap insurance/deterrent to send the thief on their way empty handed. There are plenty of other cats out there to wrangle.
Kent
It’s happening everywhere.
I would be tempted to make something myself.
Yes, theft of catalytic converters is increasing everywhere.
Catalytic Converter Thefts Rise As Prices Of Precious Metals Inside Hit... (https://www.carscoops.com/2021/02/catalytic-converter-thefts-rise-as-prices-of-precious-metals-inside-hit-record-highs/)
I would be tempted to make something myself.
For $100, it would be hard to duplicate the Cat Strap or to come up with a better alternative.
My worry is someone cutting the exhaust past the strap and ending up with an even bigger mess to sort out, on the V10s, all of the exhaust systems pipes are well exposed.
The entire, exposed exhaust cannot be fully protected, the idea is to make it difficult enough that the thief moves on to an easier target.
Larry
This product isn't available for e450's, but it might give some ideas for people who want to fabricate something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbce8m2KykU&ab_channel=EricTheCarGuy
Catalytic Converter Protection - GetCatSecurity (https://getcatsecurity.com/)
There is a place on their website to request they design something for your vehicle:
Cat Security™ Sign Up Form (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftULTEq60dcq6rziSisq73LJ2DseAFIgdocMOXF_lLhkL3Qw/viewform)
Rich
For $100, it would be hard to duplicate the Cat Strap or to come up with a better alternative.
Larry
When I looked at the catstrap site a few minutes ago it looked like $350 to $650. What model do we need?
This product isn't available for e450's, but it might give some ideas for people who want to fabricate something.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbce8m2KykU&ab_channel=EricTheCarGuy
Catalytic Converter Protection - GetCatSecurity (https://getcatsecurity.com/)
There is a place on their website to request they design something for your vehicle:
Cat Security™ Sign Up Form (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSftULTEq60dcq6rziSisq73LJ2DseAFIgdocMOXF_lLhkL3Qw/viewform)
Building a box around the V10's cat doesn't keep the inlet and outlet pipes from being cut. The box cannot be bolted to the frame because the exhaust needs to float and a box will accumulate much more heat in the cat which could either damage the cat or heat things up enough to start a fire. In other vehicles, a shield appears to be effective in covering access to the cat but the V10's cat is out in the open,
There is no perfect solution to the thief problem.
Larry
The Cat Strap I use is very reasonable in cost. Prevent Catalytic Converter Theft | Catstrap | United States (https://www.catstrap.net/)
My combo kit included the Cat Strap and the Cats Eye for about $200 but the Cat Stap itself is about $100 without the Cats Eye.
Installation is easy enough if your willing to slide yourself under the rig. For my Sequoia (2 catalytic converters) I purchased 2 $100 Cat Straps and paid my mechanic $100 to install the system. I’ve had that one for about five years and it is still working.
The nice thing about the authentic Cat Strap is that all the exhaust components are still accessible. That makes it an easy fix for those pesky oxygen sensors the State requires. Makes my mechanic happy as well.
One thing I’d like to mention is that the owner of the Cat Strap company answers his phone quickly and answers all your questions in easy to understand language. That’s a big plus for me.
Kent
I drove our rig to the mechanic today to get our stolen converter replaced. Boy, it was loud! My wife followed to take me home and said she could hear it. I had visions of being stopped for a too loud exhaust, but made it OK.
George & Jo Ann
1999 MB
For the rest of us, there is a universal anti-theft device called a CatClamp that should provide more peace of mind. Amazon.com: CatClamp Standard Kit: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com/CatClamp-Standard-Kit/dp/B00HPZTCMA/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8) If you read the comments, it seems that it’s best installed on a lift and then welded to prevent rattling. The multiple stainless steel cables make it hard to saw off fast, so thieves are inclined to move on.
Maud
I put that CAT Clamp on my sisters Honda Element about 7 years ago when thefts were big then. That cable sure took long time to feed back and forth but I thought it was a pretty good product then. Her bill to Insurance was $2500 then. I need to study the CAT strap a little more. Its nice to have options.
I put that CAT Clamp on my sisters Honda Element about 7 years ago when thefts were big then. That cable sure took long time to feed back and forth but I thought it was a pretty good product then. Her bill to Insurance was $2500 then. I need to study the CAT strap a little more. Its nice to have options.
A neighbor had the cat converter stolen from her 2005 Honda Element and USAA totaled it out. She wound up buying another 2005 Element.
Chris