"2018: Stop believing that lead acid batteries cannot be run below 50% without damage. It is 20%, using 80% of capacity. Will we ever be delivered from all of the idjits on forums who just repeat everything they heard?"
Since I'm low on battery bank, have voltage stabilizers and have been priced out of RV parks I think I'll see how the below 50% discharge works.
Will let you know.
Harry
Battery manufacturers will applaud your decision.
The OP doesn't give the source of the '20%' quote, but, AFAIK (battery gurus please validate or correct this information), the plates in lead acid batteries that are frequently discharged below 80% will sulfate rapidly and kill the battery. ???
Harry-
You can run a lead-acid battery below 50 percent. Doing so reduces the number of discharge-recharge cycles the battery can deliver before it "wears out." One chart I have shows these values for State of Charge/Depth of Discharge:
SOC 80 percent (DOD 20 percent) --> 2,700 cycles
SOC 50 percent (DOD 50 percent) --> 1,000 cycles
SOC 20 percent (DOD 80 percent) --> 540 cycles
As SOC decreases (DOD increases) you need to be prepared to replace your batteries more often. Note: These values are from a manufacturer's tests; I'd expect "real-world" values to be worse (that is, fewer cycles than listed).
It helps to have a battery monitor in your coach (Victron, Trimetric, Magnum, etc.), or to use a hydrometer to test the battery cell specific gravity. These are accurate methods to determine State of Charge. The LD built-in indicator is not accurate.
The quote is from handy bob
FAQ’s PLEASE READ THIS FIRST « HandyBob's Blog (https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/faqs-please-read-this-first/)
Just thought I'd light you guys up a bit. I will do it since I have such a small battery bank, have been priced out of RV parks, and have been having to choose between sat TV/DVD and furnace. Fifty bucks a night pays for a lot of battery if it ends up that way.
It was mentioned in another forum that before the days of battery monitors you couldn't flirt with the lower end because you didn't know where you were, today you can. It isn't that I can't pay $50/night, I just refuse to.
In addition to what Joan said, the deeper you discharge a battery on a regular basis, the shorter its lifespan will be. This chart from the Lifeline Battery Manual tells the story. At 30% depth of discharge (70% state of charge), you can expect about 2000 charge/discharge cycles before the battery is unusable. At 80% discharge, after only about 500 cycles, you'll be buying a replacement. (The chart is for Lifeline AGM batteries; I'd expect the less expensive Trojan or Interstate flooded-cell batteries to show a similar curve, but perhaps with fewer cycles overall.)
"Since I'm low on battery bank..."
There are really two factors here. You need enough storage capacity in your batteries, but equally important, you need to be able to replace the power you take from those batteries. Driving is one way to do that, but you'd have to drive every day or two to keep your batteries up. (Idling the engine while parked is a last resort; it's slow charging and not great for your engine or the environment.) Running your generator, if you have one, will work, but your neighbors won't thank you for it.
Have you thought about adding a couple of solar panels? That's clean, silent power that costs nothing after the initial investment. And with today's dropping prices, the initial investment doesn't have to be a big one. Even a 100 W "suitcase" system (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Watts-Monocrystalline-Foldable-Suitcase/dp/B00HR8YNK6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1515772650&sr=8-1&keywords=renogy+suitcase) can be help keep your batteries topped off.
"...have voltage stabilizers..."
I'm not sure what voltage stabilizers you're talking about. Can you fill us in?
"and have been priced out of RV parks..."
If you're talking about commercial RV parks are too expensive, you might want to try Passport America (http://www.passportamerica.com). For $44 a year they offer 50% discounts at 1,800+ commercial campgrounds. You only have to spend a couple of nights a year at commercial campgrounds for that membership to pay for itself. And you might try state parks, which tend to be less expensive than commercial parks.
Of course, there's always dry-camping, my personal favorite lifestyle. Which brings us back to solar panels. For boondocking, they can't be beat.
"I think I'll see how the below 50% discharge works."
As others have said, I think you'll be buying replacement batteries sooner rather than later if you do. Why not consider the alternatives just mentioned?
HandyBob means well, but his website has a great deal of wrong and outdated information. He continues to insist that PWM controllers are better than MPPT controllers in most uses. I don't know of anybody who has used both who would agree. He claims that flexible panels "start out with a 16.5V rating," but my HQST flexible panels have a Vmp of 17.9 volts, the same as my rigid Renogy Eclipse panels. He says that "Venting is an 'over blown' issue. Worry more about the smell than danger from Hydrogen gas." That advice could be fatal. And he makes categorical statements such as "If the controller is on the back of the panel, it cannot work." Well, yes it can, if you pay attention to the connection from there to your batteries (keep it short and thick). And so on.
Bob's statement about discharging batteries to 20% is typical. Yes, you can run them down that far. What he doesn't tell you is that if you make a habit of it, you'll be buying new batteries three or four times as often. That's very expensive advice.
I'm not saying that everything Bob says is wrong. The problem is that if you pick any given statement from his lengthy, angry ramblings, the chances are about 50% that it's outdated, misleading, or just plain incorrect... and unless you have a good understanding of electricity and plenty of experience with solar installations on RVs, it's hard to tell the difference between the wheat and the chaff. For that reason I can't recommend his advice to anybody.
"It isn't that I can't pay $50/night, I just refuse to."
This is a dilemma that we are all facing now. In my own town, and in towns all across the west, when we are traveling, I see signs on motels that say variations on "$36./night/single". In reality, an average night in a motel is likely a lot more than that, and I really don't want to stay in a motel room, but I'm having some difficulty understanding the new rate structures at campgrounds, where a spot of ground and utilities are provided, but there is no provided structure, before/after cleaning costs, towels, nor consumable amenities, as in a motel/hotel stay.
I doubt that campground owners are becoming overnight millionaires, and motel owners/operators are not becoming impoverished, so how do we parse the disparity in these prices?
Personally, we have sufficient electrical power for continuous boondocking, and water resources to last two of us a week, even if we aren't particularly obsessed with water conservation. Therefore, the need for a campground facility is limited, but remains convenient for regurgitating and replenishing the water supply in comfortable surroundings, but paying $50. for this privilege seems egregious.
I haven't tried it in many years, but we formerly would pull into a campground during the early afternoon (not at a destination), and ask to deal with the water situation. Sometimes there was a charge; sometimes not, but we always paid some sort of honorarium for the privilege. I'm pretty sure this is likely not the case these days, but maybe it is - I just haven't tried it in 15 or so years.
On other days, finding an appropriate boondocking overnight spot might be difficult, or too time consuming, for one reason or another, thus a dry camping spot at a regulation campground could be utilized. This "overflow"-type site costs the campground operator practically nothing unless you flush their toilet, I guess, but they could easily put a double sawbuck tariff on such a spot and still make a decent ROI for the night. So much more pleasant than a parking lot at a retail emporium, truck/rest stop, or restaurant. But in reality the cost differential between "dry" and "FHU" for the night at a campground can be as little as $3. or $4., so probably not a practical thing to do.
There are so many new and easy-to-use resources now for finding places to turn off the RV engine at the end of the driving day that finding such places is probably a lot easier now than when I was last in the navigator's seat, and I look forward to giving it a whirl - one of these days - really soon! ;->
Virtual hugs,
Judie <-- Sierra Vista, Arizona
Adventures of Dorrie Anne | Photographing the West (http://dorrieanne.wordpress.com)
Today: Two Soups
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"2018: Stop believing that lead acid batteries cannot be run below 50% without damage. It is 20%, using 80% of capacity. Will we ever be delivered from all of the idjits on forums who just repeat everything they heard"
Will let you know.
That goes against all the research, training and information that the major battery manufacturers provide.
Several decades ago I attended a two-day deep cycle battery class, taught by Trojan battery engineers.
The object of the class was to teach the proper charging and use of deep cycle batteries, in industrial applications.
They taught just the opposite of what you are suggesting.
Must have been fake news.
My suggestion is to be more picky about where you obtain your information from.
Just because you read it on the internet, doesn't make it right
Larry
Money wise it seems to me I'm ahead halving the life of two flooded cell batteries than I would be replacing them with four AGMs. Considering that AGMs are much more expensive I'm way ahead.
I doubt that I ever see 20% charge but I'll probably be below 50% a few times.
Considering how many people I know that have ruined AGM batteries I have an aversion to them anyhow. We will see how it goes. Accidental overcharge or undercharge is common. We have all done it and AGMs don't like it.
I get a lot more utility out of my electrical system after reading Handybob's rant years ago than I did before so I appreciate it. I had already decided to begin use of the lower end of the battery capacity before I saw his recent statement so it caught my attention.
I do have solar. Two hundred watts is not enough but it certainly helps. I will not run a generator in the evening, except for short periods to run the microwave, even if my neighbor does. When I need the generator to battery charge I run it in the morning.
Do you have a catalytic heater? I find that a quick run of the furnace in the AM or when returning after a time away is all I need to run it if I fire up the cat heater to maintain. That takes no electricity and so does no run down the batteries. All LED lighting, a 22" LED backlit TV that draws 2A or less, and a 2TB hard drive and media player that adds about 0.5A to the mix, with about 80 movies and hundreds of TV shows for long evenings of entertainment. The 200W of solar with an MPPT controller is more than adequate, but installing a tilt-mount for the panels would do well in the winter, and should bring your batteries up to full charge in a day's time.
Check your battery voltage after dark a few hours. A reading around 10V or less would indicate shorted cells.
Steve
Nope, no catalytic heater, yet, and right now don't think I'm gonna go there even tho it is good advice electrically. Tapping into the propane supply is certainly possible and I need to look into the possibilities for an RB. Batteries are five years old. All LED lighting.
Off grid I can't tolerate the current draw of all the electronics on standby all day/night. Sat receiver loses it's channel memory and no program recording on the DVR when you turn their power off. I might change my mind on that. The 22" LED TV is very good, power wise. Good thing we don't have CRT TVs any more!
The satellite TV and DVR is my main electrical sin. Without that I'd be ahead of the power game.
With old batteries it will be an interesting exercise.
Harry
"we formerly would pull into a campground during the early afternoon (not at a destination), and ask to deal with the water situation. Sometimes there was a charge; sometimes not, but we always paid some sort of honorarium for the privilege. I'm pretty sure this is likely not the case these days, but maybe it is - I just haven't tried it in 15 or so years."
Most commercial campgrounds and state parks I've visited allow use of their dump station and freshwater fill for a charge--usually $10-$15.
"I doubt that campground owners are becoming overnight millionaires, and motel owners/operators are not becoming impoverished, so how do we parse the disparity in these prices?"
I can't explain it either, other than supply and demand. Obviously there are enough RV owners willing to pay the higher rate to fill a park on a daily basis so monthly and seasonal rates are no longer offered. Free BLM and Forest Service campgrounds are still available, usually with the two week limit. Forest Service fee campgrounds are still reasonable, especially at the "geezer rate." But also with the two week limit.
Supply and demand rules and the rates won't come down till demand declines. Were I a park owner and could fill it at the daily rate I wouldn't offer a monthly rate either. Declining demand is certainly not on the horizon so we either pay it or adapt to the still available free/low rate camping areas with no power. How long will they be there?
There are more and more parks refusing dump and water services for a fee. Check in and you can use it. One solution some use is to check in for one or two days, dump, fill, use the laundry, catch up on the wifi, and move on. Times are changing and we will have to adapt. Maybe the time will come when I, too, will pay $1500/mo but it isn't here yet.
Maybe checking into the the $30 motel and using the parking lot!
Local summer destination communities are tightening up on local free camping but their power ends at the town limit. If they had influence over Forest Service and BLM rates they would/will use it. Enjoy it while it lasts.
I saw a new Bounder last year with the standard battery (one battery, they said) with a compressor fridge. He will have to plug in every night till he upgrades the electrical system. The compressor fridge OEM install was much less than a propane fridge, I was told, so the manufacturers were doing it for the lower unit price. When I encountered it, it was getting a battery upgrade at Quartzsite, not something the owner expected to have to do. Shore power can get rare at Quartzsite.
Just a little ramblin' Perhaps others have more insight.
There is one major difference between discharging two batteries to 40% charge and four batteries to 70% charge. The recovery charge time will be doubled.
If you are off grid mostly, then adding some more panels on the ground on a DIY framework that you can orient for max solar as the day progresses seems like your best solution. They are pretty cheap these days:
Grape Solar 100-Watt Polycrystalline Solar Panel for RV's, Boats and 12-Volt... (https://www.homedepot.com/p/Grape-Solar-100-Watt-Polycrystalline-Solar-Panel-for-RV-s-Boats-and-12-Volt-Systems-GS-Star-100W/204211365)
Upgrade your charge controller to a mppt model that can handle the higher wattage.
Steve
2004 RB. We have 4 solar panels and an mppt controller. Our 300ah AGMs needed to be replaced recently. I hate running the generator, but in Yosemite for two weeks last fall, mostly under canopy, I was running it 3 times per day--unheard of in the past.
Constantly watching the battery monitor, even when the batteries are not old, to stay below 50% discharge gets old fast,. I want to enjoy my time, not fret and I have better things to do with my time when camping. So, this week, I installed (well, Rod M. installed) 4 250AH batteries raising my capacity from 300AH to 500AH. Yes, they cost $1100, plus cables, plus Rod's 3 hours (barter), but now I can relax and enjoy life.
If we camped exclusively in the desert, the sun would provide more than enough power, but we don't. We are often under canopy, as in Yosemite, so capacity matters. Just my 2 cents.
You may want to consider supplementing with a portable solar kit if frequently under canopy. They are readily available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=lhc4SimrJPw
You may want to consider supplementing with a portable solar kit if frequently under canopy. They are readily available.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=lhc4SimrJPw
I don't understand. Under canopy, how is a portable solar kit more effective than the 4 panels on the roof?
I don't understand. Under canopy, how is a portable solar kit more effective than the 4 panels on the roof?
Well, you can always move them to that sunny spot nearby...
It would be to supplement the existing rooftop system. You could be under the trees and the portable unit could be placed in the sun.
"We are often under canopy, as in Yosemite, so capacity matters."
I feel as if I'm missing something. Capacity matters, but it's no use without the ability to replace the energy you use. When you're parked under a canopy, your roof-mounted panels aren't producing any power, so if I understand your description correctly, your generator is what you use to recharge the batteries. In that situation, increasing storage capacity from 300 Ah to 500 Ah just means you'll have to run your generator even longer to get the batteries charged up to 100%, no?
It sounds as if what you need to go with those bigger batteries is more solar input. I heartily endorse Greg and Mike's suggestion of putting some panels on the ground in a sunny spot near your rig, to get additional solar power. My friends and I do this all winter. Since you already have a good controller (assuming it can handle more than 400 W), all you need is the panels. $250 will get you a pair of 100 W Renogy panels (https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-Watts-Volts-Monocrystalline-Solar/dp/B00AQQAAQW/ref=sr_1_4?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1515875078&sr=1-4&keywords=renogy&th=1). Add some cable (I use AWG 8 two conductor cable) and you're in business. You can cobble up some legs to tilt the panels for maximum efficiency, but I was lazy and just bought $9 plastic folding step stools from Walmart. They fold flat and can be used for other things when not propping up panels. :-)
Let's start this off with a few admissions to keep my comments within context:
- I don't full-time. The most I will likely do in a stretch at one location is 3 days.
- I don't have a microwave, television, or other high amperage convenience appliance installed. The highest amp-draw item in the RV is the furnace, which is usually only used at the beginning and end of the season at electrical hookup campsites. For most of the summer, the greatest amp draw comes from the water pump, propane fridge control board, personal electronic devices, and LED lighting.
- I don't have an on-board generator. I have a portable Yamaha inverter generator. So far it hasn't gotten much use, mainly because we have been either at a campsite with hookups or haven't run the furnace.
- I have a Trimetric TM-2030-RV battery monitor and SC-2030 Solar Charge Controller, but I haven't installed them yet.
- I will be getting a single 150W solar panel to install flat on the roof, which will go on with the Trimetric components this spring when the snow melts enough to uncover the RV.
- I have a couple small group 24 deep cycle AGMs with about 150AH capacity stored under one of the benches in tied-down battery boxes (prevent accidental shorting). As the original spot for the single house battery was in the engine compartment, this new location allows for more batteries but also requires AGMs (no effective venting).
- The house battery wiring has been completely upgraded with higher gauge and quality wire to reduce transmission loss to below 2%.
- The shore charging system has been replaced as well to something more modern, although still sized appropriately for the task at hand. The old system was noisy, inefficient, and not doing the batteries any favors.
- The 115VAC and 12V systems are still isolated- I have not installed an inverter. All 115VAC outlets are dead when not plugged into a generator or shore power. Multiple 12V USB outlets are installed for personal electronic devices. This was by design to keep the battery load to a minimum.
So, we aren't "power users". The RV is not a "home away from home" for us, with all of the modern conveniences. Rather, it's a warm, dry spot to base adventures from and a place to laze around in on rainy days or crash after a long day doing stuff outside. While I see the appeal of a "full-service" RV, especially for longer durations, I think they may detract somewhat from the original purpose of our trips (to get away from it all). The more I can keep the family outside of the RV, the better. Your mileage may vary.
I agree, HandyBob is crusty (I appreciate that characteristic). I agree that he is dogmatic. I agree his advice at times can be outdated, limited to his first hand experience with systems and installers- which may or may not reflect the current situation. I agree he has completely contradicted himself on charging voltages recently.
That said, he has a lot of good advice if you dig for it. I agree most solar installations use far too small wiring for the lengths of the runs. I agree most budget solar kits are complete junk that waste much of the available energy and give little indication of battery status. I agree any battery monitoring system that does not place the shunt as physically close to the batteries as possible is, at best, inaccurate. Any battery monitoring system that relies solely on voltage measurement is not a battery monitoring system at all. I appreciate the fact that he has contradicted himself on voltages recently, because it shows he is open to the possibility that he can be wrong.
As for PWM vs MPPT controllers, I would say that for a small system most lower-cost "MPPT" controllers don't really do what they claim and/or reliability is suspect. As my solar array will be limited on this RV to under 250watts due to space/shading constraints and my expected draw, I went with PWM. A good MPPT would have been more efficient in this colder/cloudier climate (Alaska), but I like the bulletproof characteristics and small footprint of the SC-2030 as well as its ability to interface with the TM-2030. The knowledge gained through monitoring usage and overall system performance will influence my decision-making process when/if I ever decide to upgrade or move on to another RV. As solar technology is constantly evolving and improving in leaps and bounds as it becomes more widely used, I don't think huge investments in current technology (given my needs) makes any sense. The one concession I'm making to "future proofing" is in the wiring backbone. Otherwise, tried and true will do just fine at the moment. Again, your mileage may vary.
I'm going to stick with the more conservative amounts you should draw the batteries down as much as possible. If in the future it is shown that drawing down batteries more actually extends their life, I'll consider it, but for now I'm playing it safe. I really, really don't want to buy more AGM batteries any sooner than I have to. I'm going to try to nurse this set as long as I can by monitoring them regularly and adjusting charging as required. There may come a time when I experiment with how far I can go with a set that is on its way out, but hopefully that is far in the future.
A few points Mike:
1) The shunt's distance from the battery does NOT affect its accuracy. As when properly connected ALL the battery current flows through it, it will develop the same voltage for a reading no matter its physical location. Proximity to the battery is important only due to the need to keep the high-current battery leads short for minimal losses, maximum current transfer.
2) Consider more smaller panels rather than one large one. This allows more mounting flexibility and reduces the chance of disabling the entire output if one panel is shadowed.
3) A cheap controller, whether MPPT or just PWM (both use pulse-width-modulation techniques), will be unreliable and may perform poorly. Among quality controllers, the price differential between the two is not that great, but the MPPT will bring the batteries up more quickly.
4) Matching ANY charging system - solar controller, converter, etc - to the charging source is not as vital as matching to the needs of the battery technology. All charging devices should be optimized to match the needs of your AGMs.
Steve
"All charging devices should be optimized to match the needs of your AGMs."
---
A critical point; the first set of AGMs in my 2003 died a premature death (one even split near the terminal!) due to overcharging permitted by an inadequate charge controller. (The single stage original Parallax converter didn't play well, either.) The second set of AGMs enjoys much smarter 'charging device' companions!
Two points:
1. Portable and/or additional installed panels. Where we camp in Yosemite in the fall, and elsewhere under canopy, there are no sunny spots nearby. It's deep conifer forest. More panels will not help. Under mixed sun/shade conditions, our current setup is generally adequate, though portable or additional panels certainly would help at the margin.
2. Battery capacity. Is my logic flawed?
The old batteries would not hold much of a charge, hence 3 generator sessions per day in Yosemite last fall and, therefore, the reason for replacing them this week.
With my old 300AH batteries, I could consume 150AH before hitting the 50% discharge threshold. With my new setup, I can consume 250AH before hitting that threshold. The number of minutes of charging time per amp hour may be constant, but the frequency of generator sessions will be reduced. I may need to run the generator once per day with new 300ah capacity, but only once every two days with 500ah capacity. I can vacate the coach less frequently. Also, I will be able to discharge to 25% and recharge vs. 50% and recharge.
My real goal is to cut the discharge cycle from 50% to 25% and to have increased reserve capacity as the batteries age and capacity drops.
Ted
1) The shunt's distance from the battery does NOT affect its accuracy. As when properly connected ALL the battery current flows through it, it will develop the same voltage for a reading no matter its physical location. Proximity to the battery is important only due to the need to keep the high-current battery leads short for minimal losses, maximum current transfer.
I agree, to a point. Per Bogart's shunt FAQ:
Does the shunt need to be next to the battery? How far away can it be? Even if the shunt is not close to the battery it will still measure the amps accurately. The main reason we say the shunt should be "near the batteries" is that the large cables to the battery need to be kept short to keep the voltage drop low to your loads and to charging sources. Since the shunt is in that path, it therefore will be near the batteries. The only slight inaccuracy that could occur if it isn't near the battery is that if the cable is too small, or the amps are really high there can be a little voltage drop that will cause the "volts" on the meter to read perhaps as much as a few tenths of a volt different than is at the battery. This error will be minimized if the cable is large enough to keep the voltage drop low.
2) Consider more smaller panels rather than one large one. This allows more mounting flexibility and reduces the chance of disabling the entire output if one panel is shadowed.
There's really only one place on my 20 foot LD's roof I would consider installing solar panels- in between the rear vent (removed the swamp cooler) and the escape hatch. There are rails from a now-removed roof-top box already installed in this space, which makes mounting easier and more secure. There's only so much space on the short roof for flat-mounted panels to avoid shading from the vents. That said, I haven't purchased the panel(s) yet, so I'm not married to any one configuration yet. If one panel will do the trick, that's where I'll stop. If not, I'll look at adding more. Shipping for panels to Alaska can be expensive, and often they arrive damaged, so I'm paying the premium from a local supplier. "Free" shipping rarely applies for bulky items, even from places like Amazon.
The main idea is to keep the batteries topped off. During most of the summer, our battery drain will be the lowest and daylight will be the longest. In the spring and fall, we will either be plugged in at a campground or charging via generator/solar.
3)Among quality controllers, the price differential between the two is not that great, but the MPPT will bring the batteries up more quickly.
The price differential I've seen would purchase another fixed solar panel or get me most of the way towards a good portable panel/cabling, which would make up the difference between the control methods in a system this size and add flexibility. If we were talking about more than 400W (which I will never go to on this vehicle), MPPT might make a difference.
4) Matching ANY charging system - solar controller, converter, etc - to the charging source is not as vital as matching to the needs of the battery technology. All charging devices should be optimized to match the needs of your AGMs.
And that's why the TM 2030 is so important. That will allow me to optimize the charging parameters for my batteries to ensure stages are properly configured. The SC 2030 is easier to configure when it's paired with the TM 2030.
The more I know about how my battery reacts to usage and how quickly the system can recover from loads under varying conditions, the better I can make the best use of the equipment I have. Too many people go with the default they were given, and then wonder why they're running their generators all of the time.
2. Battery capacity. Is my logic flawed?
With my old 300AH batteries, I could consume 150AH before hitting the 50% discharge threshold. With my new setup, I can consume 250AH before hitting that threshold. The number of minutes of charging time per amp hour may be constant, but the frequency of generator sessions will be lower.
We had the same same experience as you with limited or no solar battery charging, when camped in deep shade or in the winter.
I hate running the generator so to expand the battery capacity, I built a steel cradle to hold four T-105s batteries, hanging them below the floor.
The bigger battery pack allowed us to go for several days, in shade, without needing to charge..
When we do need to charge, I want to minimize the generator run time so the the stock 45-amp converter with replaced with a 70-amp converter. You should consider doing something similar.
With the 500-amp/hr AGM battery pack, you can significantly cut the generator run time by installing a much bigger converter, the battery can easily handle a 100+ amp charge, when discharged .
The generator produces up to 30-amp of 120-VAC power, so you also have the option of using an external battery charger along with the converter.
Use as much the 30-amps as possible to reduce run time.
While running the generator, make sure to charge all your devices at the same time, no need to waste watts.
Larry
We had the same same experience as you with limited or no solar battery charging, when camped in deep shade or in the winter.
I hate running the generator so to expand the battery capacity, I built a steel cradle to hold four T-105s batteries, hanging them below the floor.
The bigger battery pack allowed us to go for several days, in shade, without needing to charge..
When we do need to charge, I want to minimize the generator run time so the the stock 45-amp converter with replaced with a 70-amp converter. You should consider doing something similar.
With the 500-amp/hr AGM battery pack, you can significantly cut the generator run time by installing a much bigger converter, the battery can easily handle a 100+ amp charge, when discharged .
The generator produces up to 30-amp of 120-VAC power, so you also have the option of using an external battery charger along with the converter.
Use as much the 30-amps as possible to reduce run time.
While running the generator, make sure to charge all your devices at the same time, no need to waste watts.
Larry
Ah, Larry, you don't remember, which is not surprising, but I followed your advice years ago and replaced the stock converter with the one you recommended and reported back that that upgrade alone cut the charging time in half. And we always charge electronic devices when the generator is running.
As a side note, when Rod M. installed the new AGMs this week, he upgraded one of our fluorescents to LED so I could see how it's done. Very nice, warm 3200K units, easy to retrofit ($15/tube; $30/lamp). I just received 8 more and will shortly have all 5 fluourescents replaced with LEDs. In the past we never used the fluourescents for more than 5 minutes unless we had plenty of sunshine or shore power.
Ted
I agree, to a point. Per Bogart's shunt FAQ:
Does the shunt need to be next to the battery? How far away can it be?
The only slight inaccuracy that could occur if it isn't near the battery is that if the cable is too small, or the amps are really high there can be a little voltage drop that will cause the "volts" on the meter to read perhaps as much as a few tenths of a volt different than is at the battery. This error will be minimized if the cable is large enough to keep the voltage drop low.
No. There will be voltage drops along the cable due to its resistivity, and this will affect the current from a fixed volltage source. However, whatever that current is, it will be accurately read by the shunt, whether 6" from the battery or 60' from it. The battery monitor will accurately measure and indicate current into and out of the battery, regardless of cable length.
Steve
While running the generator, make sure to charge all your devices at the same time, no need to waste watts.
Actually, this advice applies well to solar charging too. Charge your devices and shift your 12V tasks to prime solar hours too to optimize use of that resource. This is most significant when solar will fully charge your battery bank well before the sun goes down...
Steve
"whatever that current is, it will be accurately read by the shunt, whether 6" from the battery or 60' from it."
Steve nailed it. Voltage can vary, but current is the same throughout the circuit. (A tip of the hat to Herr Doktor Professor Kirchoff. ;-)
Since Alaska Mike was referring to a voltage inaccuracy when measuring it at the shunt, note that the resistance of 2 gauge wire 6" long would be 0.0001 Ohms. A current of 50 Amps would cause a voltage drop at the shunt of 5 mV. The resistance of a 60' run would be 0.009 Ohms. The voltage drop here would be 450 mV. Thus, a battery voltage reading would be off by 4 tenths of a Volt. The moral is to keep the runs as short as possible - for many reasons.
However, a battery voltage reading is not generally that useful except as an indicator of battery problems. As far as maintenance, the current reading is what counts, as that is what the monitor uses to integrate state of charge. In my case, I missed an important warning of impending battery doom recently by NOT paying attention to the battery voltage. When problems appeared after dark despite a full charge indication, I DID check the battery voltage - 11V. Shorted cell.
Steve
We had the same same experience as you with limited or no solar battery charging, when camped in deep shade or in the winter.
I hate running the generator so to expand the battery capacity, I built a steel cradle to hold four T-105s batteries, hanging them below the floor.
The bigger battery pack allowed us to go for several days, in shade, without needing to charge..
When we do need to charge, I want to minimize the generator run time so the the stock 45-amp converter with replaced with a 70-amp converter. You should consider doing something similar.
With the 500-amp/hr AGM battery pack, you can significantly cut the generator run time by installing a much bigger converter, the battery can easily handle a 100+ amp charge, when discharged .
The generator produces up to 30-amp of 120-VAC power, so you also have the option of using an external battery charger along with the converter.
Use as much the 30-amps as possible to reduce run time.
While running the generator, make sure to charge all your devices at the same time, no need to waste watts.
Larry
Ah, Larry, you don't remember, which is not surprising, but I followed your advice years ago and replaced the stock converter with the one you recommended and reported back that that upgrade alone cut the charging time in half. And we always charge electronic devices when the generator is running.
As a side note, when Rod M. installed the new AGMs this week, he upgraded one of our fluorescents to LED so I could see how it's done. Very nice, warm 3200K units, easy to retrofit ($15/tube; $30/lamp). I just received 8 more and will shortly have all 5 fluourescents replaced with LEDs. In the past we never used the fluourescents for more than 5 minutes unless we had plenty of sunshine or shore power.
Ted
Very nice, warm 3200K units, easy to retrofit ($15/tube; $30/lamp). I just received 8 more and will shortly have all 5 fluourescents replaced with LEDs. In the past we never used the fluourescents for more than 5 minutes unless we had plenty of sunshine or shore power.Ted, what brand and source did you use for your LEDs? Did you replace both tubes in the fluourescent fixtures?Chris
Since Alaska Mike was referring to a voltage inaccuracy when measuring it at the shunt, note that the resistance of 2 gauge wire 6" long would be 0.0001 Ohms. A current of 50 Amps would cause a voltage drop at the shunt of 5 mV. The resistance of a 60' run would be 0.009 Ohms. The voltage drop here would be 450 mV. Thus, a battery voltage reading would be off by 4 tenths of a Volt. The moral is to keep the runs as short as possible - for many reasons.
However, a battery voltage reading is not generally that useful except as an indicator of battery problems. As far as maintenance, the current reading is what counts, as that is what the monitor uses to integrate state of charge. In my case, I missed an important warning of impending battery doom recently by NOT paying attention to the battery voltage. When problems appeared after dark despite a full charge indication, I DID check the battery voltage - 11V. Shorted cell.
Thanks Steve- that's exactly what I was talking about. Knowing the voltage
at the battery instead of at some random point along the wiring allows a battery monitor to better do its job.
For the size of my system, I'm way overbuilding the backbone. Part of this is to avoid having to re-run wiring many times as I modify the system to suit my needs. So, when I moved my coach battery(ies) from the engine compartment to the rear of the vehicle under the driver's side bench, I ran 2/0 arctic-grade welding wire to keep loss from the alternator to a minimum. In retrospect, that seems silly given the addition of a generator and eventually solar, but I would have killed my batteries trying to maintain them off of the alternator with the original 4ga wire. At the very least, now when I'm driving, I'm charging. Probably the most expensive Ah ever. Excellent quality wiring, connectors, terminal blocks, and other bits and pieces has added up, but it has also allowed me to adapt as plans changed. Most of it will probably be removed when (if) I ever sell the Lazy Daze and transferred to the new RV/camper.
I still haven't decided on the size/number of panels I'm going to use. The low angle sunlight up here means shading is a real concern, even in the long, bright days of summer. That escape hatch throws some long shadows when open. Going with a couple 100W panels instead of a single 150W panel would help somewhat, so that bit of advice is being considered carefully.
Harry, I am surprised you are paying $50 a night. Phoenix AZ - big destination, in town, is only $36 a night (including tax) even at very nice places with lots of activities, further outside of town is cheaper (but filled up now).
I don't even like paying $36 a night, I would not pay $50 either - unless a very nice dinner and a show was included. :D
Though I found one that does $15 dry camping with dump (e.g. no electricity, not sure if it has water), just "parking lot" kind of place but had laundry and showers/bathrooms.
Many places let you do a dump & fill water for $10/$15 - truck stops (Loves, Pilots, likely others), rv storage lots, and rv supply stores (like camping world or state trailer). Some calling around might be useful. Note: When we ask about potable water, we have gotten some answers like it is city water but:
It is not run thru the filtration system we use inside our store (e.g it is tap water), or
because it is close to sewer we have to label it non-potable (I thought huh, rv parks have sewer right next to the water spigot, do they have a problem with water pipe leakage so sewer leaks out and into the water spigot?).
So asking and making sure it is fine with you is suggested.
Harry, I am surprised you are paying $50 a night. Phoenix AZ - big destination, in town, is only $36 a night (including tax) even at very nice places with lots of activities, further outside of town is cheaper (but filled up now).
I don't even like paying $36 a night, I would not pay $50 either - unless a very nice dinner and a show was included. :D
Though I found one that does $15 dry camping with dump (e.g. no electricity, not sure if it has water), just "parking lot" kind of place but had laundry and showers/bathrooms.
Many places let you do a dump & fill water for $10/$15 - truck stops (Loves, Pilots, likely others), rv storage lots, and rv supply stores (like camping world or state trailer). Some calling around might be useful. Note: When we ask about potable water, we have gotten some answers like it is city water but:
It is not run thru the filtration system we use inside our store (e.g it is tap water), or
because it is close to sewer we have to label it non-potable (I thought huh, rv parks have sewer right next to the water spigot, do they have a problem with water pipe leakage so sewer leaks out and into the water spigot?).
So asking and making sure it is fine with you is suggested.
I'm guessing this belongs on another thread?
Jim
It is on this thread because we are being forced to adapt coaches that have limited solar and battery capacity to free camping with satelite TV and such power hogs.
I spend my summers in and around Silverton, Colorado, and today I cannot get a seasonal or monthly rate, only a daily rate, and it is $50/night in one park and nearly that in the others. That is $1500/mo and we used to pay $500.
I have installed the cat heater but I don't know how well it will work at 9300ft. One reference says it won't so we will see. One way to cope is to discharge the limited battery bank below 50% and we are back to the thread title.
At the end of the summer I'll report how it went. The spring will be spent in Moab, Utah. The problem there is the parks are full. Free camping readily available. I admit I'm getting used to the cost of no fee camping!
It is on this thread because we are being forced to adapt coaches that have limited solar and battery capacity to free camping with satelite TV and such power hogs.
I spend my summers in and around Silverton, Colorado, and today I cannot get a seasonal or monthly rate, only a daily rate, and it is $50/night in one park and nearly that in the others. That is $1500/mo and we used to pay $500.
I have installed the cat heater but I don't know how well it will work at 9300ft. One reference says it won't so we will see. One way to cope is to discharge the limited battery bank below 50% and we are back to the thread title.
At the end of the summer I'll report how it went. The spring will be spent in Moab, Utah. The problem there is the parks are full. Free camping readily available. I admit I'm getting used to the cost of no fee camping!
When I look back at your original post I now see the reference to camping costs. Based on what I've been reading the past couple of years on rvtravel.com increased costs and packed campgrounds is what we should expect. They sold over half a million new units in 2017 and over 400K in 2016 which are record numbers. Chuck Woodbury, who is in charge of that site is full timing and talks about this issue a lot.
Too many folks us included have been selling the idea of RVing and full-time travel.
Jim
The new RVer soon discovers his new, high dollar, RV functions very poorly if not plugged in on a daily basis. Those folks are filling the RV parks. When the parks fill up they run their generators all evening just to watch TV.
I would prefer to plug in. It makes things so much easier, but my opportunities to do so are more and more limited. Again, I can pay the $50/night, but this year I've put the limit at $20/night. There won't be many/any opportunities for electrical power at $20/night.
Free camping faces another problem in phone signal access. With broadband we don't need wifi anymore but mountains or the Canyonlands area have camping areas with no signal. With a booster many areas do have signal.
I'm not new to this game but have been at it for 35 years. There is a difference between being a weekend warrior and a seasonal RVer. I'm just trying to deal with the economic changes. We need a battery like lithium without the temperature problems. It will arrive.
This will be a year of transition. Maybe I'll decide to pay the money, maybe I'll turn the iPad off in the evening and log in when I go into town, Maybe I'll get reservations for next year and let others cope with power problems. I won't decide to stay home.
If this correction in the stock market starts to stretch out and becomes a bear market (20%+ drop) and lasts for awhile all these folks who bought their new RV’s with nothing down will be dumping them left and right and all will be right with the RV world. 🤓
I’ve never cheered for a bear market before but honest to God I would be fine with it now.
The new RVer soon discovers his new, high dollar, RV functions very poorly if not plugged in on a daily basis.
The new RVer soon discovers that it's a relationship, not an object. It takes work to maintain a relationship. ;)
"I’ve never cheered for a bear market before but honest to God I would be fine with it now."
Gotta confess I had the exact same thought! Pretty funny.
What would be nice is something that put out 300 watts of electrical power, uses propane, is silent and small, and can run 24/7. The EFOY fuel cell would do it but the fuel is unobtanium, very expensive and it is a bit large. I'll just have to settle for a Honda EU1000i on propane to run when needed.
What would be nice is something that put out 300 watts of electrical power, uses propane, is silent and small, and can run 24/7. The EFOY fuel cell would do it but the fuel is unobtanium, very expensive and it is a bit large. I'll just have to settle for a Honda EU1000i on propane to run when needed.
Sadly, we have been promised LPG fuel cells for years.
Yes, You Can Buy This Home Fuel Cell | Popular Science (https://www.popsci.com/gear-gadgets/article/2002-01/yes-you-can-buy-home-fuel-cell).
Reading Popular Science since I was kid, I have had a lot of disappointments, so many 'amazing' inventions have gone nowhere.
EFOY fuel cells have been around for many years but the lack of readily available pure Methanol and the high overall cost doomed its adaptation. To really be practical, a separate onboard methanol tank would be needed.
I want a fuel cell that burns a fuel that is already carried, either gasoline or propane.
Larry
If this correction in the stock market starts to stretch out and becomes a bear market (20%+ drop) and lasts for awhile all these folks who bought their new RV’s with nothing down will be dumping them left and right and all will be right with the RV world. 🤓
I’ve never cheered for a bear market before but honest to God I would be fine with it now.
Just a thought. I'm guessing many of the RV parks (especially newer ones) have probably been built with leveraged financing. Between that and the lack of business from all those new, shiny mass-produced RV's if the stock market were to get too bad, many of the RV parks themselves could go out of business. The ones that do remain will jack up their prices due to higher demand.
But since everyone is saying the fundamentals of the economy are strong, this is just a moot thought, right!? :)
Stock market is not a judge of today’s economy, it is lead indicator of what folks think things will look like 12 months or so from now. As Gretzky said, “I’m a great hockey player because I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is now.”
Your take on some Rv Park operators going down is a good point. Then again, with a LD we can go off and camp wherever the heck we want for free!
Dave
Stock market is not a judge of today’s economy, it is lead indicator of what folks think things will look like 12 months or so from now. As Gretzky said, “I’m a great hockey player because I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is now.”
Your take on some Rv Park operators going down is a good point. Then again, with a LD we can go off and camp wherever the heck we want for free!
Dave
You can but we are seeing more and more people at boondocking spots. All those people gotta park those shiny new RVs somewhere.
Give you some examples. There is a beautiful spot that overlooks the Grand Tetons we found a few years ago. It has subsequently been listed online and is now packed. A ranger commented on the increased traffic to that location. Another off 395 has been closed.
Jim
If I may veer into a stock market observation -- only two things drive the market - greed and fear. Greed to get more money today and fear you are going to loose the money you have. Each day is a new day with no relationship to yesterday or tomorrow.
In my not so humble opinion the only way to make money in/on the stock market is to bet with the house. They know more then we will ever know or get to know.
Although the stock market is tempting to discuss in these volatile stock exchange times, let's move back to the original topic of this thread, please.
Chris