I have just recently purchased a very nice 1989 LD 22/MMH with 75K original miles. The 2nd owner had the LD for 25 years. He had it service regularly for the general items, He did not do shocks and other mechanical maintenance (PM) very well. I am a 30 year Navy Veteran so Preventative Maintenance (PM) is in my blood. I am beginning this at this time.
After driving this for a little while I have decided that there needs to be some improvements in the 350 SBC power plant. As it has been pointed out to me there is only one (1) Horsepower for every 44 LBS. Dry weight of the LD. If and when my wife and I hit the road there are some pretty long and steep mountain passes in the areas that we plan to go to. We live in the Great Pacific North West, up on the Kitsap Peninsula, where there are a lot of little hills and some short mountain ranges In short What have some of the other owners of these neat little coaches done to improve their horsepower to weight ratio.
Tom Dangelo
Poulsbo Washington
Tom,
Welcome to the LDO forum, and thank you for 30 years of service! I'm sure some of our resident experts will be chiming in soon. Congrats on your new LD!
Thank you for the warm welcome. I have had 2 Cortez motorhomes hence the name cortezit, I look forward to many adventures and trips to see the country that we, who have served, stood ready to die for. From all that I have seen of the LD community and the fine coaches of its members I am certain that I have found a very nice group to be a part of.
Tom aka "hey you"
Hi Tom. Welcome. You might want to mention if your LD has the throttle body injection or a carburetor. I believe your model year is right at the switch over point. I’m not enough of a Chevy Truck gearhead to mention useful upgrades.
Thank you for the observation. It is indeed a TBI motor
.
In the old days when doing SBC engines, we wanted more torque, a camshaft change would get you started towards the right direction.
Thank you for the response. I have decided to change the heads to a 64cc chamber head a performance, TBI intake manifold,
Roller Camshaft, Roller Lifters, and Roller tip Rockers plus a couple of other items that I am exploring, basically converting the earlier era SBC to a platform more similar to that of the 350 Vortex engine. About $2200 and change for parts plus some sweat equity in labor. Increase the fuel pressure to 18PSI and add a heated O2 sensor. I have built numerous engines over the years so this will give me a chance to get grease under my fingernails. I will let you all know the results when it is completed.
Tom
A diamond cannot be polished without friction
Nor a man perfected without trial.
Just a couple years after yours Chevy offered a four speed automatic. I am not sure if there is a change in the lower gears, I believe the extra gear is a overdrive. It also might be worth while seeing what cooling upgrades can be done.
Thank you for the response. I have decided to change the heads to a 64cc chamber head a performance, TBI intake manifold,
Roller Camshaft, Roller Lifters, and Roller tip Rockers plus a couple of other items that I am exploring, basically converting the earlier era SBC to a platform more similar to that of the 350 Vortex engine. About $2200 and change for parts plus some sweat equity in labor. Increase the fuel pressure to 18PSI and add a heated O2 sensor. I have built numerous engines over the years so this will give me a chance to get grease under my fingernails. I will let you all know the results when it is completed.
Tom
A diamond cannot be polished without friction
Nor a man perfected without trial.
Tom, both Larry and Steve have had older TBI LDs and can probably give you some practical advice if you can wait for them to chime in.
Chris
Tom, both Larry and Steve have had older TBI LDs and can probably give you some practical advice if you can wait for them to chime in.
Chris
Thanks Chris, Life is a journey and not a race. I can wait a while.
Tom
You may want to take a look at this book. David Vizard's How to Build Max Performance Chevy Small Blocks on a Budget.
There are a couple of suggested rebuilds for a a LOT more torque at lower RPM. Probably the best thing is a good set of heads that flow well in the lower to mid RPM ranges, tied to your cam. Edelbrock and AFR come to mind. You may want to upgrade your TBI system to a Holley Injection setup through the manifold vs the throttle body. Make sure your trans is able to take the extra torque. Keep the motor and trans cool. Since your going this far into the motor, you may want to look at a fresh high performance block or complete engine from Chev or other vendors. Might save you quite a bit of time, plus a warranty too.
If you really want to go deep, look into using an LS engine. They respond well to minor upgrades with gobs of horsepower and torque. Again, your trans maybe the limiting factor at this juncture. It all boils down to how much money you want to spend :)
Horsepower is only s matter of $😋
I will probably complete the suspension upgrades to gas schocks and Hellwig Sway bars before doing any thing to the power plant. I have a complete Holley 4 barrel fuel injection system that I have never used. It is tuneable with a laptop. That and an Edelbrock intake. Headers , depending on how much I can get under there. Will look around for some adaptable vortex heads
. I have built a couple SBC in the past. Will do some computer forecasts with different parts to see what I can come up with. I have a 1987 Grumman on a P30 platform that managed to squeeze another 100horses out of.
Tom
The Brown Banded Turtle (TBBT)
We suffered with our 1983 LD's anemic 165-HP engine and the overloaded suspension. And was it equipped with the optional dual exhaust, with a cross pipe, and the "Dyno" kit (different main jets and distributor centrifugal advance springs).
The suspension had been extensively rebuilt and upgraded.
I considered several options to improve the mileage and power.
Two issues stopped me from dumping any more money into it.
First was the lack of overdrive. The three-speed Turbo 400 is a fine transmission but without overdrive, and 4.11 rear axle ratio, the engine is spinning at high RPMs, at cruising speeds, one of the reasons why so many Chevy 350 V8s wore out early.
At 85,000 miles, our 350 needed rod bearings and a timing set.
The other reason why the 350s had short lives was the relatively small radiator, many of them burned up before the wore out.
If upgrading the engine, make sure to get the best radiator available. Our '83 had a thick, dual-core radiator and it still ran warm on long, hot uphill grades. A radiator sprayer was eventually installed to keep the temps in a more tolerable range.
Consider why the stock engine seems underpowered. It is a truck engine, designed to run at high RPMs, for extended periods, without burning the valves. The small valves limit the amount of air and fuel flowing through the engine, reducing the heat build up in the cylinder heads. Regular car engines are not designed to run at full throttle for extended periods.
I searched for an early to mid 90's Chevy 350 V8, mated to a 4L80E 4-speed overdrive transmission, to use for a transplant but never found an affordable one. Also considered building a 383 V8, along with a 4L80E., but once again it was too much money, IMO, to put into the lightweight chassis
Ford and LD finally came to our rescue in 2003 by producing the 23.5' models with the E450 chassis.
The V10, and E450 chassis, is superior to the Chevy G30 in almost every way.
in 16 years on the forum, I can't remember anyone overheating and destroying a V10.
Keep us posted on how your project turns out.
Larry
Larry, et al; I have now amassed all of the components to go forward with the upgrade. We do not have a chassis dyno to deliver definitive results but the program that we do use, "desk top dyno" indicated about 315 HP and 375 FT LBS
of torque at 4200 rpm.
This in theory brings the HP/WT ration from 1HP for 44 LBS of empty vehicle wt. down to 1hp to 25 LBS of empty vehicle WT. I have built and raced rice rockets along with other engines. My moto has always been "If it sounds good in my ear and feels good on my rear then I am happy. We will see how big a smile I can generate. I can carry spare TBI components in case I need them, along with spare belts and hoses I will be prepared to go anywhere., with reason of course:):)
PS My Helwig sway bars are on the way as well. I have already replaced all four shocks with Monroe GAS- Matic's. Not top shelf but then I am not road racing.
Tom and the Brown Banded Turtle
Note that in CA, none of the mods to the engine would likely be CARB approved, and thus would prevent a pass on emission testing. I guess you have determined this does not apply to WA emissions?
Steve
“Note that in CA, none of the mods to the engine would likely be CARB approved, and thus would prevent a pass on emission testing. I guess you have determined this does not apply to WA emissions?
Steve”
Steve in Wa. Vehicles over 25 years don’t require testing.
Not having lived in California since I retired from the Navy, almost 28 years ago I am not up on the current emission standards imposed on those who still live there. I have researched each of the components that I am using. Summit racing has a CARB compliant notice stating that each component is CARB Compliant.
A diamond cannot be polished
nor a man perfected without trial.
Tom and the Brown Banded Turtle
Although this does not apply to your WA registered vehicle, you could check this page to verify whether your parts are CARB certified for your specific engine:
Database: Aftermarket Parts Database of Executive Orders (https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php)
Steve
Thank you Steve for the link to this data base. It is interesting that this website database is germaine to vehicle registered in the State of California. It does not seem to be applicable to the other 49 states. Perhaps I am wrong?? Maybe you meant for me to look at it because I said that the components that I am using were CARB compliant??
I was born in San Diego in 1942. I am currently living in the Great Northwest where these laws do no apply to my vehicle, in this case.
Tom Dangelo.
Correct. Were you or a subsequent owner to attempt to register this vehicle in CA in the future, this would be an issue. CARB certification is the most stringent of any state, so obtaining that allows a supplier to sell the part countrywide. Of course, installing all CARB-certified parts does not guarantee a clean engine will pass emissions testing - just that in CA, you won't be required to dismantle your engine even if it DOES pass...
I mention all this because our '83 4bbl G-30 LD had no CARB-certified components available to allow conversion to TBI or port injection. Our only options would have been to install a complete oem package from a subsequent year, down to the heads, tranny, computers, and all bolt-on hardware, OR cram in a 454 and put CARB-compliant mods on that. So, we lived with keeping our travels below 10k' for 19 yrs...
Steve
Steve how well I remember having to go the referee station when I was living in California. It was always a pain in the hindquarters. I am saving all of the OEM stuff that I have removed from it. If and when I sell it I will transfer all of it along with the title to the subsequent owner.
Tom
Washington State has less restrictive emission rules than California, many vehicles not needing any inspection if garaged in the right county.
Even in California, a modified engine can pass if the visual inspection finds nothing unusual and the engine runs clean, without any OBDII codes showing (Check Engine light).
Sometimes the biggest problem is passing the visual inspection. Painting the engine the Factory color and making sure everything looks stock helps, adding a layer of dirt and grime is even better.
Resist the urge to add chrome and/or shiny, colorful parts.
Both of my Jeeps have modified engines and pass the emissions test easily. While I have the CARB certificates for the parts installed, I have never been asked to show them .
With the built Chevy 350, I would want the biggest cooling system possible, it will be the RV's weak point.
If equipped with catalytic converter, it will probably need a higher flow model, to cope with vastly increased exhaust flow.
Hopefully, your LD came with the optional dual exhaust system.
It should be an interesting project.
I'm glad it's not me who has to remove and replace the engine. I replaced the 350 V8 in a Chevy van I once owned.
Once was more than enough.
Get a big shoehorn. I have no idea how GM squeezed a big 454 block engine into the narrow engine bay, the 350 is a tight fit.
Let us know how this works.
Larry
Well Larry the weather up here in the Great Northwest is finally getting to a point where we can tackle the project. So this is the month that we will do the deed. I will keep you posted as to the outcome.
Tom and the
Brown Banded Turtle.
LOVE the "Brown Banded Turtle"!!!
Thank you for the kind words. I am now looking to locate the ECM for the Brown Banded Turtle's ECM. I need to have the chip modified to accommodate the impending changes, Does anyone know where the ECM is located in the G series chassis like the one used for the 1989 LD MMH
Tom Dangelo &
The Brown Banded Turtle
In the 1984 K5 blazer it was above the globe box.
On my 1991 it’s on the bulkhead behind the drivers seat
Thanks for the responses I will take a look.
Tom Dangelo
"The Brown Banded Turtle"
Found the ECM and have ordered the chip that I need from TBICHIPS.com, Bryan Harris. Using Trick Flow 170 Heads, Edelbrock TBI Intake manifold, Bored 1.840. Bored Throttle Body, Roller Camshaft, Lifters and roller tip rockers 1:6, and some other items.
Looking for 300HP+ with a load of low-end torque. I suppose the question will be asked why did I do all of this. The simplest answer: it appealed to me. Thank you, everyone, for answering the questions that I have asked "the mess".
We will see you one the road one of these days or perhaps at a Lazy Daze gathering.
Tom Dangelo
"The Brown Banded Turtle"
I suppose the question will be asked why did I do all of this. The simplest answer: it appealed to me.
I'm look forward to crossing paths with you and taking a look at that now very special engine. It sounds to me like your "new to you" Lazy Daze has found a good home. Well done Tom.
All that is left to do is to install a new high-pressure fuel pump in the fuel tank, an inline fuel regulator and of course a fuel pressure gauge. I need to boost the fuel line pressure from 12 to 18 PSI. I also installed a 4-row cross flow all aluminum radiator, new water pump and all of the other stuff that you don't want to become a problem later while we are traveling.
I am still waiting for my new Hellwig front sway bar. It should ship this week. The factory had to make up one for the G30 chassis. We will see how well all of this works when I take it out on the road for the first "shakedown cruise".
Tom and the Brown Banded Turtle
I know this question will take us off topic, sorry I’m curious.....
Tom where will you be headed on your first “shake down cruise”?
Cynthia
We will see how well all of this works when I take it out on the road for the first "shakedown cruise".
I'm looking forward to the "shakedown cruise" review. Do you have a D-Day window for the big event? It should be an exciting moment for you.
All that is left to do is to install a new high-pressure fuel pump in the fuel tank, an inline fuel regulator and of course a fuel pressure gauge. I need to boost the fuel line pressure from 12 to 18 PSI.
What do you think it will do the quarter in? ;)
What do you think it will do the quarter in? ;)
Bit faster than a Ford because of the SBC...
What do you think it will do the quarter in? ;)
Why not, as long as you have a handicap!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYxdh022is
What do you think it will do the quarter in? ;)
In about 1,620 feet ;)
I have no idea at this point "how fast it will do the quarter in" but it sounds pretty darned healthy. We are still waiting for the correct Hellwig front sway bar for the "Turtle". I am installing a tachometer this morning. Looking for the comfortable " engine torque curve" rpm range to travel in.
I will probably take the Turtle from Poulsbo Washington to Sequim Washington and back for its first run. We live in the Olympic Mountain Range so there are a couple of fairly steep grades that will give me a good idea of how much of an improvement there is over what I had originally.
The second run will be with my wife Sally along. We will either go to the "Ho rain forest" or to Leavenworth Washington, from Poulsbo, our base of operation.
Larry, it was a little bit of a challenge but nothing too drastic. As I said in an earlier post "all it takes is money to increase horsepower". It is kind of like having a favorite pair of cowboy boots that you would rather re-sole and re-heel than by a newer pair. :)
Tom and the "Brown Banded Turtle" (with a growl)
Well here is the initial report on the "Turtle shakedown cruise". The route I chose was to Forks Washingon and return. The occasion as the "Voices for Veterans" stand down that is held annually at the Elks Lodge, BPOE 2524 in Forks. This is where we take care of those homeless and "damaged" veterans who chose to answer our nations calling and have paid a price for their patriotism.
The one-way trip is 114 miles through some very hilly and semi=mountous terrain with some 9 and 10 % grades, winding narrow roads, along Creasent Lake which is heavily traveled by Logging trucks and tourists alike, and semi trucks.
I averaged 53 mph as my chosen speed. I bought the turtle to see the United Stated and not race through it as my family and I dis on more than one occasion while I was serving my 30 years of active Naval Service. Now is the time to appreciate. Engine tachometer was set at 3300 rpm by cruise control,I had more than enough torque and speed to run any of the grades, passing slower semi-trucks that were under load on the grades. I averaged just a tad under 9 mpg. Elevation changes of up to 1500 ft.
The suspension upgrades that I had done paid off in spades with little or no noticeable swaying when I passed the logging trucks, some of which were doing at least 65 mph with a full load. The drivers are paid by the loads hauled, and not by the hour, so they waste precious little time from pick up to delivery point. I sm most pleased with the outcome.
The desktop dyno estimate is a shade under 300 hp with 315 ft lbs of torque @ 3500 rpm if memory serves me correctly
Tom and "The Brown Banded Turtle"
You may be surprised at what you get out of the 350 TBI, I certainly was. I live in the foothills of the San Juans in Colorado, grinding climbs topping out at 12,000 feet. I don't find the 350 underpowered- my basis of comparison is motorhomes with the 460 EFI powerplant. Mine cruises at 65 without having to work, and maintains speeds well on 6000 vertical foot climbs. Not a hot rod, but far better than I expected. I wouldn't know it is a small block just by driving it, unless I was wondering why I wasn't burning more fuel.
The TBI system is reliable, but near impossible to get power out of. The computer is a glorified calculator working off a very simple table for fueling that has near-zero ability to adapt to modifications, due to the basic nature of the system and the slow speed of the processor. In many ways, GM didn't tune the fuel injection, they detuned the engine to match what the FI was capable of.
Tuning the computer for mods is also very difficult, not so much a lost art as an art that was never really discovered. The computer in these is so slow that even communicating with it is a struggle, it runs abysmally slow serial speeds and so when datalogging, it can only give you a data snapshot once every several seconds, making it brutal to actually determine what the computer is seeing in operation.
I have pretty good experience with GM's 1st gen fuel injection, about 20 years ago I had an 11 second firebird running TPI, the performance fuel injection application. The TBI and TPI computers are similar in their lack of sophistication, with TPI's computer slightly faster. Neither likes mods.
Headers and exhaust are pretty safe and will make power, but in my experience will mean pig rich WOT operation. Heads that flow better are brutal to dial in.
The LT1 camshaft from 93-97 F bodies is a reasonable performance upgrade and plays nice with computer programming with stock heads. Be careful with cams as the computer system hates cams with much overlap.
If you are looking at going beyond headers and maybe and LT1 cam, Aftermarket fuel management systems these days are really good at self- learning a good tune.
Down the road, if I need to build an engine for mine, I expect I will do a roller cam conversion (to not have to worry about flattening a cam lobe), install vortec heads, an LT1 or possibly LT4 cam, and an aftermarket FI setup, maybe something like a stealth ram. Most of the $$$ will be buying the FI system, the aftermarket ones are cheap while rebuilding a SBC definitely is.