Yahoo Message Number: 156559 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156559)
I am considering a used LD, and wonder:
If I winterize the tanks, and put a tarp/cover over the rig, is it OK to keep it in my driveway during the winter? Or should I make sure to get it into a covered storage facility? This will be my first RV, so I have lots to learn.
I live in New England, so we get lots of snow. How much snow can the roof withstand, before I should be concerned?
Thank you for your thoughts.
Yahoo Message Number: 156561 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156561)
Personally, I am a big fan of indoor storage. Keeping the rig out of the sun when not in use, is a huge deal, especially if yours is a color subject to fading. Ours silver/gray.
If I had to store outdoors, I think I would skip the tarp and let the snow land where it will. You can walk anywhere on the roof, and you are much heavier than any snow.
I live in the city, in a not particularly nice part of town, in an 80+ year old home, and I built a garage big enough to hold the LD. Simple structure, 24 x 32 feet, with an 18' wide x 12' tall overhead door on one end. The old garage was a disaster and needed to be torn down anyway. Zoning rules apply of course, but it was the largest structure allowed by code without a variance. It is a standalone building, no insulation and no heat. But it does have electricity, so I am able keep Oki (the LD) plugged in and charged up.
Snow in the winter is one thing. But sitting out in the sun is just as bad, if not worse for the vehicle.
Total cost for my garage, was less than $30,000 which included a new 130 foot, 12 foot wide, 5000 PSI rated concrete driveway to the street, and an 80 foot Ham radio tower to boot. I also installed a sewer cleanout right beside the new driveway. So I can dump my tanks at home.
You may not have the ability to build something like that in your existing space. But your local zoning ordinances also may frown on you parking an RV outside your home. Something to check out.
You made me dig out all the old photos!
Be sure to click through the links at the top http://dcg.org/garage/ (http://dcg.org/garage/)
Anyway, my 2¢
-Dave '06 MB, Indianapolis
Yahoo Message Number: 156562 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156562)
We have four AGM batteries that were installed with four solar panels by AM Solar in 2009. Not sure they are holding the charge very well - rig hasn't been used for a trip for three years. We are thinking of changing out the batteries before a planned escape.
Has anyone gone for the lithiums, and if so, how did they work out?
Virtual hugs,
Judie http://dorrieanne.wordpress.com (http://dorrieanne.wordpress.com)
Yahoo Message Number: 156564 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156564)
We have kept our LD outside in our driveway, without a cover, since we purchased it. Last winter, we had at least a foot of snow on the roof. No damage.
FWIW, I called our local zoning manager to make sure keeping the LD in the driveway was OK. His response was that it's OK as long as you don't park it on the lawn. On the driveway was fine.
One reason I don't use a cover, is that if the weather is OK, I try to drive the rig monthly. Using a cover would take the incentive away to do this. Further, we often travel south in Jan. or Feb., and I am very reluctant to climb on the LD roof with ice and snow on it. I don't need to do a "header" off the roof while trying to remove a cover.
Finally, if you find your LD, consider joining the North East LD group. We meet twice a year, and many of your newbie questions can be answered by members of the group. Best wishes for a successful search.
Bob
Yahoo Message Number: 156566 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156566)
I store ours outside, uncovered in snowy CO. No ill effects to date. Like the other poster said, I take mine for a drive each month while I run the generator so a tarp would be a hassle. I do scrape the snow off the solar panels because that's how I keep the batteries charged.
I polish it twice a year to help protect the paint and use the vinyl tire covers to help protect the tires. I did the same in South FL with the near constant, blazing sun.
When it's zero outside and snowing , sometimes I ask myself why we moved from sunny FL to CO. :-)
Ed
Yahoo Message Number: 156568 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156568)
Hi Judie,
There is a conversation 9/11-9/15 of this year, started by "thefuofus" (no email address in his messages). If you are using Apple Mail, search for "lithium batteries", and you will find it. He had the install done at AM Solar, so they should be a good info source.
Dale
Yahoo Message Number: 156569 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156569)
Link to whole lithium battery thread:
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/search/messages?query=lithium%20batteries (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/search/messages?query=lithium%20batteries)
Joan
Yahoo Message Number: 156570 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156570)
I live in Wyoming and basically do the same as Ed. I have a monthly check sheet. Ours lives outside with no problems
Yahoo Message Number: 156572 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156572)
Judie, Technomadia has done so and they have written some really interesting articles about.
Jan/Scottsdale AZ.
Yahoo Message Number: 156573 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156573)
http://www.technomadia.com/2012/09/a-year-on-lithium-rv-batteries/ (http://www.technomadia.com/2012/09/a-year-on-lithium-rv-batteries/)
Thanks, Jan. The above is the article I read. There are several links within the article, and more at the end.
Judie
Non-typical brevity because this is being . ;->
dorrieanne.wordpress.com (http://dorrieanne.wordpress.com)
Yahoo Message Number: 156574 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156574)
Thank you for all your answers. Found a warehouse that stores cars/RVs indoors at a fair rate, so I will probably go that route.
I appreciate everyones helpfulness!!
Yahoo Message Number: 156576 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156576)
Hi Judie. We had the solar upgrade with LIFEPO4 batteries done just last month, so no meaningful data yet.
95% of our use of the LD is boondocking and we wanted to be able to use the microwave, but the TK only has room for two batteries. The 300A pack and supporting paraphernalia JUST fits into where the two 220AH Lifeline AGMs were. With the ability to safely use 80% of their capacity, 300A would be equivalent of 480AH lead batteries not counting the faster allowed charge and discharge (Peukert) rates of the lithium technology.
The backup plan if the TK lacked room for 300A was the 200A pack. AM said that would also suffice for microwave use, and in fact they successfully tested that using a 100A pack (though obviously not recommended).
So far everything works great. Will it hold up long term? Ask me in 10 years, I guess.
BTW - freezing apparently does not damage these batteries, but allowing them to charge while frozen does. While brief periods below 30f wouldn't be an issue, I plan to open the master disconnect switch on those few nights where the forecast is near freezing.
Steve
We have four AGM batteries that were installed with four solar panels by AM Solar in 2009. Not sure they are holding the charge very well - rig hasn't been used for a trip for three years. We are thinking of changing out the batteries before a planned escape.
Has anyone gone for the lithiums, and if so, how did they work out?
Yahoo Message Number: 156579 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156579)
Judie
Lithiums have a lot of advantages but they do come at a heavy cost.
To replace the extsting AGMs will cost around $600 ( lead-acid $400).
A 200-amp lithium battery from AM Solar, with the needed electronics, is $1900 plus several hundred for the installation.
Right now, unless you have cash to burn, lithium will cost several times more than replacement AGMs.
The lithium a should have a much longer life but right now, this is all speculation since the technology is still young when using AGMs in RVs.
Our LD's electrical has been significantly upgraded and we use four T-105 lead-acid batteries as they are best suited battery for our usage. With as many AGMs that have died premature deaths, in LDs over the past few years, I have suggested switching back to the more tolerant lead-acid T-105s, as long as extra batteries are not located in the interior of the coach.
That said, I'm waiting on the price of the batteries and associated electronics to come way down. It's too early for me to adopt this technology but I'm happy to let others be the Guinea pigs.
Larry
Yahoo Message Number: 156582 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156582)
For my money Trojans are the way to go. My T-145's are over 4 years old and still going strong. They fit in my battery compartment just fine. A Profill system is worth the money for the reduced hassle topping off the battery with distilled water. I have talked with several LD owners that experienced early failure on AGM batteries. Why spend the extra money unless you need the batteries inside?
bobmoore14
Yahoo Message Number: 156583 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156583)
"I have talked with several LD owners that experienced early failure on AGM batteries." ---- I don't know how many service years constitute "early failure" in an AGM 6-volt "golf cart" battery. For example, the two Lifeline GPL-4CTs in myTK lasted 5 years; from the research and state of technology development available *at the time* I had them installed, i.e., in 2010, I expected longer life. However, it appears that, in a real-world RV application, 5 years for a Lifeline AGM battery is a pretty standard lifespan, probably less if the batteries have been overcharged. IOW, one can expect the Lifeline AGM to last roughly the same amount of time as a Trojan T-series deep-cycle flooded battery *in the same application* .
This website offers an interesting listing/chart and explanations of how long one might expect a particular battery in a a specific application to last; note the wide variations in life expectancy! (Copy and paste the URL; the last two words don't "link".)
http://www.solar-electric.com/deep-cycle-battery-faq.html#Lifespan of Batteries
As ever, YM (and your batteries' lifespan!) MV!
Joan
Yahoo Message Number: 156586 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156586)
" IOW, one can expect the Lifeline AGM to last roughly the same amount of time as a Trojan T-series deep-cycle flooded battery *in the same application*"
Okay so the AGM is expected to last the same as the Trojans the way I'm reading this. What's the advantage? Not having to add water? Is that worth roughly 30% more cost? I would rather spend the money on something else. Batteries are boring, at least as long as they work. But I could be wrong, or missing something.
bobmoore14
Saddle West RV park for a few...
Yahoo Message Number: 156587 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156587)
Bob, I don't have AGMs but along with not having to add water (which is an important feature for many folks), I think being able to have the AGMs in a non-vented area (inside the coach) is the other reason. Folks with RBs often place AGMs under the dinette benches. Others will probably have more reasons. Personally, I am happy with Trojans but as we know, others mileage may vary.
Chris
Yahoo Message Number: 156589 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156589)
My four Lifeline 6V batteries installed with four solar panels by AM Solar 9 years ago are still working well enough for what I have been doing, though I imagine new ones would be at least a bit if not quite a bit better capacity.
I think if you don't know how well your batteries work you should test them. Run the heater and whatever for a day and see how they do.
I did a fair amount of camping last summer in northern midwest without electrical hookup and did fine. Sometimes the batteries were loosing ground day by day but we would eventually drive a few miles, maybe stay somewhere with electrical hookups. I have run the generator a bit recently when we were under trees and rain clouds, and been in more places with electrical service.
Jay
Yahoo Message Number: 156590 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156590)
I've seen occasional reports of AGM battery failures, but it's never been clear whether there is a pattern to the causes of these failures. I can't help wondering whether incorrect charging could be a factor in many cases. AGM batteries in general tolerate undercharging and overcharging poorly.
Let's start with undercharging. AGMs like to be brought to 100% on a regular basis. How regular? I try to get mine to 100% every day, and probably succeed five days out of seven. If this isn't done, the battery will gradually lose capacity. How many RV owners get their batteries to 100% regularly? How many even own an accurate battery meter (e.g., SmartGauge, LinkLite, LinkPro, Victron BMV-700) so that they can know when the batteries are at 100%? You certainly can't judge accurately by the colored LEDs that Lazy Daze installs. Even by the voltage readout included in most solar charging controllers can only produce meaningful results when the batteries have been at rest (no charging or power usage). Time recommendations for "at rest" range from 4 to 24 hours, which can be hard to attain while using an RV.
Now let's talk about overcharging. The Concorde Lifeline AGMs that Lazy Daze now installs, and that many of us have retrofitted, require lower charging voltages than many other AGMs. (For the record: 14.3 volts for bulk charging and 13.3 V for float charging, both at 70 degrees F., and preferably temperature-compensated--higher voltages at colder temperatures, lower at warmer temps. Concorde spells out the details in their Lifeline battery technical manual: http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/manual.pdf.)
For example, in the past year I've examined and reprogrammed several solar charging controllers from Morningstar and Victron. All these controllers had selectable settings labeled as being for AGM batteries... but at those settings, they all used float voltages that were too high for Lifeline AGMs. (That's why I had to reprogram the controllers: to add custom settings that would not overcharge Lifeline batteries.) If a person bought one of these solar controllers--all from well-respected makers--and chose the labeled AGM setting, the controller would have overcharged and possibly damaged their Lifeline batteries.
That warning goes double for older solar charging controllers, such as the popular Heliotrope HPV-22, that were designed before AGMs came into widespread use. From what I've seen, most of them used voltages that were too high for Lifeline AGMs. And not all of them can be reprogrammed to use the correct voltages.
And then there are the converters, which are also used to charge batteries. The crude Magnetek converters in older LDs would be likely to damage a set of AGMs, and I wouldn't put much more faith in the slightly less crude Parallax converters installed in modern LDs. The three-stage Progressive Dynamics converters are certainly more sophisticated, but what are the output voltages set to? (And I'm not even going to talk about what voltages Ford's charging system may be producing while you drive.)
I don't have answers to all these questions. What I do know is that AGMs can easily be damaged by overcharging (as an extreme example, my old Heliotrope HPV-30D went haywire and ruined a set of five new Lifeline batteries in just a couple of weeks by pumping in upwards of 16 volts)... and that it's very easy to get excessive charging voltages from many popular charging controllers and converters. Could this be responsible for at least some of the AGM failures we're hearing about? One has to wonder.
If you've read this far, you may be thinking that AGM batteries are like delicate flowers that need to be pampered. That would be doing them an injustice. They are quite robust when treated well... but they have different needs from the old flooded-cell batteries that many of us have been using, and perhaps most important, different needs from what the majority of charging equipment I've seen is set up for.
And AGMs have advantages that at least for some of us, justify their higher cost: they can be charged much faster than flooded-cell batteries; their self-discharge rate when unused is about a quarter that of flooded-cell batteries; they almost never emit hydrogen gas when charging, so they can be installed in unvented compartments (e.g., under my midbath's fridge); they can be installed in any position except upside-down; they won't spill acid. And of course AGMs are maintenance-free, although with a ProFill system, maintaining flooded-cell batteries need not be a chore.
AGMs aren't for everyone. The old flooded-cell Trojans are more cost-effective on a dollars-per-amp-hour basis. For most RVers, they're probably a better choice. But to return to my original point: when I hear about "frequent AGM failures," I wonder whether the batteries were defective, or perhaps were just treated improperly.
Andy Baird
Yahoo Message Number: 156591 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156591)
We are in N. Calif and don't have much snow. We will tarp our if we don't expect to use it for a few weeks. If we could fit a garage for it we would. Sun is the bigger issue here
Joel and Mary 2013 31 IB 2011 CRV towd
left
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Yahoo Message Number: 156592 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156592)
I think th highest point in Fla is 278 ft. That might be ome reason
Yahoo Message Number: 156593 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156593)
"AGMs aren't for everyone. The old flooded-cell Trojans are more cost-effective on a dollars-per-amp-hour basis. For most RVers, they're probably a better choice. But to return to my original point: when I hear about "frequent AGM failures," I wonder whether the batteries were defective, or perhaps were just treated improperly."
Andy
Several years ago LD was replacing a lot of near new AGMs, under warranty.
It was speculated that overcharging was the problem.
Might be the reason why LD now installs the Parallax 8375 converter and Sky Blue 3000i solar controller.
The previously used 7400-series Parallax converter and Heliotrope solar controller had their charge and float voyages set too high for AGMs.
The average LD owner doe not utilize the main advantages of AGMs, other than not having to add water a few times a years.
AGM's main advantages, as you listed, are their ability to efficiently absorb or produce high amperage levels or to be installed in the interior of an RV, without venting.
So unless the owner has a very large inverter and/or charger or has installed extra batteries inside their LD, not having to add water is the only really useful advantage, not a good enough reason, IMO, to pay twice as much for replacements. YMMV In return, you get a battery much more likely to be damaged by improper charging. AGMs do not appear to last any longer than lead-acid batteries.
For the time being, failing to see significant personal advantages to switching to AGMs, I'm sticking with the lead-acid T-105s and the Pro-Fill until lithiums come down in price and develop a track record, in RV usage. Their advantage are too big to ignore.
https://flow-rite.com/battery-watering/marine-rv/pro-fill-rv (https://flow-rite.com/battery-watering/marine-rv/pro-fill-rv)
Larry
2003 FL with
4-T105s
PD9270 converter
400-watts solar w/ a Sky Blue 3000i controller
And a lot other stuff.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/collections/72157603770063511/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lwade/collections/72157603770063511/)
Yahoo Message Number: 156594 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156594)
We have the AGMs in our 2011 mid-bath and no trouble so far. The question I have about the Trojans and similar bats. has to do with the adding water need and the systems to add the water. How does this work in areas where we have persistent sub-freezing temps. through the winter? Do the water systems freeze-up? Do they need to be winterized like the coach plumbing? Should the coach bats. be removed from the LD and placed in a warmer environment? Sorry if these questions have been asked and answered previously. Bob
Yahoo Message Number: 156595 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156595)
Bob,
Trojan and similar batteries when *fully charged* have absolutely no problem with sub-zero temperatures. I've read they're good to about -76 degrees F. However, a fully discharged battery is not much better than water. Of course, to begin with, we should never be more than half discharged for battery life. I've read at 50% charge freezing will be about -10 degrees F.
So, net net, if your Trojan battery is fully charged you're winterized.
Ale Rutchka, SE #4 '05 MB
Yahoo Message Number: 156596 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156596)
Bob,
From the horse mouth (Trojan) this time:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/WP_DeepCycleBatteryStorage_0512.pdf (http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/WP_DeepCycleBatteryStorage_0512.pdf)
State of charge -- Freezing temperature 100% -- -92 degrees F 92% -- -72.3 degrees F 85% -- -62 degrees F 62% -- -16 degrees F 40% -- +5 degrees F 20% -- +19 degrees F
So, once again, keep your batteries charged!
Alex Rutchka, SE #4 '05 MB
Yahoo Message Number: 156597 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156597)
When I replaced the two fried AGMs with a new pair in June of this year, I also replaced the HPV-22B charge controller with a Blue Sky 3000i; the original Parallax converter had been replaced with a 45A Progressive Dynamics 4600 "kit" earlier.
http://www.progressivedyn.com/pd4600_converter_replacement.html
A discussion with Greg Holder at AM Solar appeared to confirm what I had suspected, i.e., that the AGMs installed in 2010 had very likely been consistently overcharged. The 3000i is reputed to be a lot "smarter" than the HPV-22B and the voltages are set for appropriate charging of the new AGMs. After a few months, the trio of AGMs, 3000i, and PD "Inteli-power" multi-stage converter appear to be playing well together with 300W of panels.
Developments in solar and battery technology move forward quickly, and more is learned about the real life behaviors and requirements of batteries and the corollary systems every day; a lot of what was thought to be "state of the art" five years ago isn't even available now. From my experience, I believe that an appropriate battery-charge controller "match" is critical to optimum performance and battery (AGM or flooded-cell) longevity.
Joan
Yahoo Message Number: 156598 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156598)
My batteries are AGM's. Why? First, I have 6 of them. The only place they fit is inside. Second, as the AGM's don't vent, the terminals are less likely to experience corrosion.
For me, there is one aspect (stored inside) that mandates AGM's. In consideration of the other factors - reduced need for monitoring, checking levels, reduced corrosion, I think I might have paid 50% more for AGM's even if they were outside. I have seen too many rotting battery trays and mounting brackets that were damaged by acid to expect conventional batteries to remain trouble-free, like my AGM's. Would I pay 450% more for Lithium Ion, assuming the $1900 vs $400 is correct? Probably not, though they have a lot of appeal to me. Maybe when my AGM's, now 7 years old, begin to show signs of age, Lithium Ion batteries may be more cost-competitive.
Ken F in NM
Yahoo Message Number: 156602 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156602)
AGM has some advantages over lead acid. Biggest problem with is folks after reading about the advantages of a AGM just remove the lead acid batteries and replace them with a AGM set. AGM's need a different changing regulator. AGM's are sensitive to over charging. Generaly lead acid charging systems have a fixed voltage setting at 14.4v or 2.4v per cell. This leads to overcharging a AGM. The float charge for AGM should be 2.25 to 2.30.
AGM's can be charge at a higher rate. AGM's can be discharged up to 80% - lead acid only 50%. AGM's stand up better in colder weather.
It AGM's 'worth' 30% more I don't know. I'm happy with my AGM's. If and when they fail (as all batteries do) I'll replace them with new AGM's. Maybe with Lithium batteries fi the price is within the ball park of AGM's.
glen google.com/+grhafford (http://google.com/+grhafford)
Yahoo Message Number: 156608 (http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/lifewithalazydazerv/conversations/messages/156608)
What I meant by early failure of AGM's is after a couple years or in some cases sooner. They seem very vulnerable to overcharging. Most folks I have talked with get about 5 years or more from the Trojans. I see them as a cost effective solution if you don't need more than 2 batteries, or if you have a way to install more on the outside of the rig like Larry has done. But each to their own and use what's best for you. It will be interesting to see what kind of life I get out of the AGM Optima I gave Larry to install in my Jeep.
I am also a fan of the Blue Sky solar controller with remote display. AM Solar doesn't sell junk, and the tech support is great. They spent an hour fixing a problem I had created with my solar display, and didn't charge me a cent. A reputable outfit.
bobmoore14